Any Experience wot Velodyne SPL 1200 ultra

[ellisdj]

I dont see eye to eye with David on bass - we have had big debates before on the subject, I chose to stop debating through reluctance to appear attacking but I didnt think his arguement in the debate held much merit in that context - not saying anything about him persoanlly just that debate.

what you hear its not what you get with bass and there is no arguement in this debate its Factual - Its fully measurable - you only get what get and you dont get what you dont get - this is the same for full range as well but thats more of a mindfield as its not only pressure..

I dont remember saying the SVS was better than the KK I just said reviewers chose to buy it over the KK as did I. There are quite a few reviewers who bought their review sample according to the review - its that good a product.

I said its much better than the Velodyne and to be chosen over a KK DXD1202 by a reviewer that had nothing but praise for the KK is high praise indeed

 

[bigboss]

I dont remember saying the SVS was better than the KK

If you look at hometheatreshack Bass Zone lots of subs have been tested in the exact same way - the best they tested is the SB 13 Ultra and the reviewer bought one over buying the DXD1202 as its better.  That is very high praise indeed

Here.

 

[bigboss]

Oh man that was a good buy so Gel!!!*biggrin*

Posted in wrong thread???

 

[ellisdj]

At the mo his advice is the velodyne he dose love them . And from my personal experance its the subwoofer that benfit most from eq's as the contain all of the freqences that are arguably the most important. Hence the resaon Audysssy puts so much effort in to the subwoofer and not the main channels.. But i do argue you have to use eq's specfically designed for that subwoofer to protect it from damage (as the engieers know how fare to push). Something that audyssy has done to my subwoofers in the past. Damage it that is.

Also in pioneers case the amp just adjust the distant to deal with the delay so no real processing is going on really as the sub is set on a conture inside the amp(pionner) dosnt have to think at all.

This is why i find velodyn so attractive its all separated.

Also Nick has sold me most of my system and knows the speakers he's working with, room shape and size so i think he recomendeing them based on the fact it will work the best with what i have. And that is really all i care about depth is secondary to cohesion.

I really dont have limited setup knowlege and is little insaulting to assume so. I just like ease and with all things Av/HIFI it mostly hit and miss there is no one right way to setup a system to be able to take a link out of the chain is god send to me.

Sorry this is mostly wrong and shows your lack of further depth of knowledge on the subject not to insult but I have to be honest

Bass is only pressure and it doesnt matter what speakers you have any sub will integrate with them - so there is no choice based on cohesion. Some subs are much easier to integrate than others but thats nothing more than the quality of the bass thats being output

There is also no important range of bass frequency - its all important. If you have bass nulls you dont hear it - eq wont fix that.

What you describe of audessey - maybe its tried to a fix a big bass null by boosting freq - thats caused your sub to destroy itself which shouldnt happen as most subs have protection but that sounds like whats happened to me

What you should do it measure and see it this is the case - if it is you are best off moving the sub or listening position because no sub in the world will change that null.

What Audessey does do is use a system where by it can be an eq point at any frequency rather than fixed frequecies like in most systems likely whats in the velodyne. In this instance it tries to compensate for overall bass problems with the limited range of eq which will not be as good as what audessey does.

Your right Pioneers dont do anything good to the bass - mostly all bad actually IMO of owning one - their bass managment systems is very primitve.

The best solutions are DIY using REW - this is the only real way to know whats going on as well and should be in every HIFi and AV enthusiast high priority list to learn how to use, even just the basics

Also if you want deep bass you have bought the wrong product - you should have bought a ported sub

 

[ellisdj]

I dont remember saying the SVS was better than the KK

If you look at hometheatreshack Bass Zone lots of subs have been tested in the exact same way - the best they tested is the SB 13 Ultra and the reviewer bought one over buying the DXD1202 as its better. That is very high praise indeed

Here.

OK sorry I did say it - you can honestly see why I would assume the SVS was deemed better than the KK as the reviewer chose to buy it over it - that is clear from that thread, I was totally right about that, his views are clear and he is well versed in testing subs as you can see. That is high praise I am not wrong in the statement

 

[bigboss]

I don't for one moment deny that SVS is a brilliant sub. As I said before, whether the increased performance justifies the higher price depends on the individual. This reviewer is an individual who preferred value over all out performance. Similarly, I look for value more than having the very best performance (hence my preference of going for 2nd in line AV receivers like Anthem 510 or Yamaha RX-A2040 over the flagships) as I believe that the performance doesn't increase as much as the price from the 2nd in line to the flagship.

I am a bit surprised at you preferring value for a change.

 

[bigboss]

For price to performance ratio, nothing beats BK and SVS.

 

[ellisdj]

You know me I dont do that - so the fact I chose the SVS says a lot - In fact I would never do that in real world of what I can afford because you only end up wanting to buy the next one up at a later date

I knew the XLS400 was the bottleneck hence why I upgraded it. Its still a good sub though

The reviews are clear on the bass performance on the SBUltra with ridiculous low THD down to 28hz. This was the big attraction to me and I am not sure I have seen a product with as many good reviews as this before - hence why I tried it.

I Think the 1202 has lower distortion below 28hz than the SVS, but I dont get below 28 hz in my room with enough output to worry. Above 28hz it meaures amazingly well - better than JL's and other subs. But that is not the only factor for performance.

The SVS is not the bottlenek in my system now and I have upgraded massively and am still upgrading massively so ££ is better spent elsewhere for me.

I have offered many times for you to come hear my system - you are lucky as I am having the room all kitted it out as we speak for a dedicated room so to come once its done will be better still

EDIT: - Dale didnt buy the sub for value alone - he bought it because its really good, read his comments properly about the subs articulation - I can tell its pinpoint in its accuracy.

The price seals the deal as you can get this level of performance for this money.

 

[bigboss]

Ah, but you haven't demoed the KK; you only read about it. Even the measurements and distortion it's slightly better than SVS, do you agree?

 

[bigboss]

Check this comment, which sums it all:

"For most home theater soundtracks and most pop and rock music, the DXD-12012's advantages over the best products from sub specialists such as SVS, Hsu, and Power Sound Audio will be subtle, and all of those subs will deliver more output at 20 Hz. So who's the DXD-12012 for? Three groups: audio pros, serious audiophiles, and very hardcore and well-heeled home theater fanatics. In other words, people who are very, very picky about sound."

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/review-kreisel-sound-dxd-12012-subwoofer-page-2

 

[Deleted member 116933]

Now your being very rude i suggest you stop. My thread was orginally about any problems or any inconsistance about the sub that i may not link such as build quality... Ill be the judge if the product is right for me not you. I dont care about it being flat or slightly flabby around 40hz or case ringing issues. Yours is not perfect either it just slightly better.

Your subwoofer is good for you fare enough but bashing me about a purchase is not right. Ive said nothing about your gear. I havn't purchased anything just yet its just try out to see what it like . The velodyne SPL 1200 and the SVS sb13 really shouldn't be compared anyhow you should be comparing it to the velodyne DD+ or the KK's or even the monolith the velo SPL is a small subwoofer aimed at very different market to yours. The only reason your comapring its is due to price. The reason this is priced the way it is becasue small is expensive im comparing it the sismic 110 if its better then that im happy

Thank you for input but ill largly be ignoring it. No offensence but i have to be honest

 

[Deleted member 116933]

Oh im sorry about that i didn't relise i thought i was still in my thread.

 

[his dudeness]

*bomb*

 

[bigboss]

I didn't want to respond to your post before the OP, ellisdj but even I found your post to be quite rude.

I know you mean well, but your manner of response rubs people the wrong way. That's why we don't agree on a number of things. I would merely give my opinion with reasons and leave it to the OP to decide, and not resort to slating every other product and insulting people's intelligence. Just a suggestion.

 

[ellisdj]

My Responses are honest, if they touch a nerve because they are honest well then I am sorry about that. I dont mind people being honest back and if I am wrong I will happily admit it / dont mind being told

However There is a lot to learn in this hobby and bass performance is a very big one (HUGE). I initially apologised for the response before I wrote it knowing it will touch a nerve but feel its my duty to be honest with you. I only know as much as I do there are people that know tons more I am always trying to learn. Learning about REW was somehting I did a long time ago and as much as the programe frustrates me at times when I cant get it working right (user error) its great and its really great that its free.

I gave you my experience of The SPL1200 as asked for in this thread and then tried to change your perception of what you think is right in terms of making a choice to help you going forward - open your eyes a bit.

Back to BB's point In terms of noise / distortion levels.

I can only go whats published

DXD1202 @ 40hz and 98DB - 1.62% distortion

SVS SB Ultra 13 @ 40hz 100 DB (so louder) 0.32% distortion - so quite a bit lower

DXD1202 @ 30hz 100DB 0.61% Distortion

SVS SB Ultra 13 @ 31.5Hz 0.15% Distortion - so lower again

SVS Clearly winner in these ranges, although I dare say this is negligable, and just shows the quality of the SVS is there for the Money in my eyes thats a starting point of demo

The DXD1202 is cleaner from 28hz and down as I said by the looks of it, however it hard to get bass to the required level in a room as those notes are so huge they are extremely modal.

Serious room treatment and isolation would be needed to get a lot of that very deep bass I would guess - maybe a proper studio would get that full benefit if it was a very good one

EDIT: Back to the op - the SB Ultra I found to be not a small amount better than the SPL Utra 1200 - I didnt notice any 40 hz flabiness (dont know how anyone would know its that frequency) or case ringing. Its simply after having the SB Ultra on loan for a couple of weeks then going to a much lesser product its standout noticeable. The brand new SB13 didnt sound that great either initially it took a good while to get the full fluidity to the bass that the demo model had.

 

[ellisdj]

Also my comments earlier were not aimed at your intelligence as a human being - I have no opinion on that just your understanding of bass performance from a sub was not as strong as you think it is - by the comments you made.

Therefore factors your basing your buying decision off might help with a point in a different direction

 

[Deleted member 116933]

Its not the way you do it though fella i know im not the best speller or at grammer but hey im concept/graphic artist by trade i dont need to spell. I wanted an informed opinions with pros and cons. And so fare there are only pro's in your eyes.

You not pointing to the SVS you drasctricly enforce your decision as to why you bought that paticular product (for better or worse) its like your try to jusfy your purchase and for that reason im not really trusting veiws on either sub's or eqs your to biased and way to much about the numbers and i know there is more it than just numbers. If that info about distortion wasn't avaibale would you even know its there? fare enough you would be able to tell its louder but distortion doubtful.

If you had just said after your trial period you had found the sub not to be what you where after and you had given a reason better than distortion figures which like i said can be drastically different form reviewer to reviewer i might been open minded.

I have a funny feeling its just becasue the velodyne isn't man enough to fill your space. I think the velo will be more than enough for my 2.5 x 3.5m space.

There is a difference between being honest bullishly spitefull! and my eyes fullly wide open thank you very much but your a book of contradictions

 

[bigboss]

Sorry, but frequencies below 28Hz not impprtant in a room without treatment is just plain non-sense. Lower bass notes is what separates the proper subwoofers from mediocre ones. Dolby spec for LFE channel is 3Hz - 120Hz, similar for DTS etc. There's no question of the importance of capturing everything that's sent to the subwoofer output. The fact that KK does it cleanly is remarkable. Tests have shown that frequencies as low as 10Hz in movies onwards is detectable.

Trust me, you think you're helping but in reality, it comes across as patronizing and people just stop listening to you. So whatever you say falls on deaf ears. It's perfectly possible to be honest without insulting.

 

[ellisdj]

My room is 3 metres by 5 metres so a bit bigger but I sit in the middle which makes it harder work for a sub as its the worst place to sit. Sitting on a boundary as most people do gives more room boost but has the negative of being where bass builds up and modes

The SPL1200 is a 1200 watt 12" - it had plenty of output - so did the XLS400 before at 400watts - loads of bass ouput. But neither of them are anywhere near as clean, or transarent, or articulate or smooth or, fluid or brutal when need to be. The XLS400 is good for music but growls in deeper bass sections of films and is only so transparent. The SPL Ultra was ok, probably a bit cleaner than the BK but not better overall enough, better someways maybe but I wouldnt have bothered upgrading from the BK if that was all I demo'd. I would have kept looking or kept the BK

The SB Ultra is a top product - but would be big in your room, maybe not the solution for you.

I am not quoting numbers for any reference for you - those are for BB to debate the statements earlier when I mentioned the comparison to KK. I thought the KK would have measured lower but it doesnt. It might do at other frequencies dont know.

I am not defending my purchase, its hardly necessary given whats published - I am only commenting on the experience I had with both products - and the stuff I have leant the last 5 years trying to push the boundaries of sound reproduction at home. There is a lot to learn, especially about bass performance

 

[ellisdj]

Sorry, but frequencies below 28Hz not impprtant in a room without treatment is just plain non-sense. Lower bass notes is what separates the proper subwoofers from mediocre ones. Dolby spec for LFE channel is 3Hz - 120Hz, similar for DTS etc. There's no question of the importance of capturing everything that's sent to the subwoofer output. The fact that KK does it cleanly is remarkable. Tests have shown that frequencies as low as 10Hz in movies onwards is detectable.

Trust me, you think you're helping but in reality, it comes across as patronizing and people just stop listening to you. So whatever you say falls on deaf ears. It's perfectly possible to be honest without insulting.

OK - do a test - set your reciever to a certain level - then play a 10hz test tone

Then play a 20hz test tone I would be surprised if you hear much

Then play a 30hz test tone - I bet you only just start to hear / feel something now.

Then play at 80hz tone - it will be much much louder

There is stuff at low frequencies in material - but getting those frequencies in a domestic room balanced with the rest is more difficult as the sound waves are huge and you need more amplitude at deep bass frequencies to be equally audible as other bass frequencies.

This is why the new Anthem eq is set with a house curve - to counteract that effect and one of the reasons why its likely proving popular - people are used to listening to flat eq'd curves done by receivers which are actually not audibly flat in terms of response.

In the WHF review of the 510 they say its the first time they have used an eq function and its not thinned the sound out - because you need more amplitude of bass as it goes deeper.

Doing this properly in a domestic envrionment even with a lot of effot put into the room is diffcult.

But you are right getting clean deeper bass from a sealed sub down to 20 Hz is incredible

 

[ellisdj]

This is where I found the info earlier - again researching the products before purchase I checked up on the 1200 Ultra in all the same places.

I found this for the Optimum 1200 which I think is a newer model or just the American model for the Ultra 1200.

Its going to a very close product even if not identical - read the comments at the bottom - says it all and is justification to the point of my arguement in the first place. If the SB13 is too big for the ops rooms then that has only just surfaced in the thread, admittedly I didnt think to ask the size of his room that is my error and - If he got offended by my comments they werent meant for that and I apologise.

But there is no comparison between the 2 subwoofers, its a shame he cant have one in his room - however I would demo a smaller model or if he wants real deep bass try a small ported model from SVS as I dare say they are all very good products for not a lot of money, he can still buy them from the same dealer who is excellent BTW

Also my real point is - its all well and good saying my sub is eq'd - but its impossible to tell with bass what you are actually getting.

I have heard a reference level 15" sub eq'd with expensive addon software and mic and it sounded really thin and worse than my XLS400 at 1/5th of the price. The owner of the 15" sub couldnt believe the bass I was getting from the XLS400, and that wasnt even a particualrly good bass at the time. So its not always about the sub or just trusting eq will give better bass - its knowing what the sub is doing in terms of freq reponse in the first place, where you put it in relation to where you sit, and personally setting any eq with the minimum amount as is possible to get away with. There is loads of info to do this online and lots of products to do this with as well. Home Theatre Shack REW section has loads of advice - take it from them not me.

 

[bigboss]

Sorry, but frequencies below 28Hz not impprtant in a room without treatment is just plain non-sense. Lower bass notes is what separates the proper subwoofers from mediocre ones. Dolby spec for LFE channel is 3Hz - 120Hz, similar for DTS etc. There's no question of the importance of capturing everything that's sent to the subwoofer output. The fact that KK does it cleanly is remarkable. Tests have shown that frequencies as low as 10Hz in movies onwards is detectable.

Trust me, you think you're helping but in reality, it comes across as patronizing and people just stop listening to you. So whatever you say falls on deaf ears. It's perfectly possible to be honest without insulting.

OK - do a test - set your reciever to a certain level - then play a 10hz test tone

Then play a 20hz test tone I would be surprised if you hear much

Then play a 30hz test tone - I bet you only just start to hear / feel something now.

Then play at 80hz tone - it will be much much louder

There is stuff at low frequencies in material - but getting those frequencies in a domestic room balanced with the rest is more difficult as the sound waves are huge and you need more amplitude at deep bass frequencies to be equally audible as other bass frequencies.

This is why the new Anthem eq is set with a house curve - to counteract that effect and one of the reasons why its likely proving popular - people are used to listening to flat eq'd curves done by receivers which are actually not audibly flat in terms of response.

In the WHF review of the 510 they say its the first time they have used an eq function and its not thinned the sound out - because you need more amplitude of bass as it goes deeper.

Doing this properly in a domestic envrionment even with a lot of effot put into the room is diffcult.

But you are right getting clean deeper bass from a sealed sub down to 20 Hz is incredible

I would suggest you read post #20 by bassobass:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1347751-purpose-flat-response-below-20hz-why-does-matter.html

 

[ellisdj]

Sorry, but frequencies below 28Hz not impprtant in a room without treatment is just plain non-sense. Lower bass notes is what separates the proper subwoofers from mediocre ones. Dolby spec for LFE channel is 3Hz - 120Hz, similar for DTS etc. There's no question of the importance of capturing everything that's sent to the subwoofer output. The fact that KK does it cleanly is remarkable. Tests have shown that frequencies as low as 10Hz in movies onwards is detectable.

Trust me, you think you're helping but in reality, it comes across as patronizing and people just stop listening to you. So whatever you say falls on deaf ears. It's perfectly possible to be honest without insulting.

OK - do a test - set your reciever to a certain level - then play a 10hz test tone

Then play a 20hz test tone I would be surprised if you hear much

Then play a 30hz test tone - I bet you only just start to hear / feel something now.

Then play at 80hz tone - it will be much much louder

There is stuff at low frequencies in material - but getting those frequencies in a domestic room balanced with the rest is more difficult as the sound waves are huge and you need more amplitude at deep bass frequencies to be equally audible as other bass frequencies.

This is why the new Anthem eq is set with a house curve - to counteract that effect and one of the reasons why its likely proving popular - people are used to listening to flat eq'd curves done by receivers which are actually not audibly flat in terms of response.

In the WHF review of the 510 they say its the first time they have used an eq function and its not thinned the sound out - because you need more amplitude of bass as it goes deeper.

Doing this properly in a domestic envrionment even with a lot of effot put into the room is diffcult.

But you are right getting clean deeper bass from a sealed sub down to 20 Hz is incredible

I would suggest you read post #20 by bassobass:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1347751-purpose-flat-response-below-20hz-why-does-matter.html

Wow that post proves loads - there is nothing really there BB - you normally do better than that mate

LOOK AT THIS (BOTTOM CHART) - there are many varations on this same diagram which shows the relative amount of amplitde required for equal audbility as bass frequency is lowered.

You can clearly see that low bass frequencies requires a vast amount more amplitude or volume than higher frequencies to be percieved by the ear as the same volume - i.e to hear a flat frequency reposne.

The new ARC curve follows this line very simialrly so you are in for a treat when you buy your new 710 (know you are buying the 510 to spite me even though you know the 710 will be better as I have harped on about ) as you will have never experienced sound setup this way.

However in the real world in order to get bass to that level at those frequencies there needs to be lots of it in the room

Someone correct me if I am wrong

a 20 hz wavelength is 17.2 metres long or 56 feet. Not many domestic rooms are big enough to handle that size wavelengh. which is why when you run a test tone that low you dont really hear anything.

30 hz is 11.5 metres so even at this frequency all your really getting is a falsification of the proper sound wave as unless the room is big enough. A lot of the energy from these low frequencies escpaes the room and rattles and rumbles other areas - hence the need for sound isolation and proofing.

In contrast 60 hz is 5.7 metres roughly the lengh of my room and my biggest room mode. I get a huge bass peak at 60hz and its bouncing aorund my room it amplifies where I sit - this is where eq works well.

I think to get enough say 20 hz bass in room because of leakeage etc you would need a LOT of power and woofer excursion to achive the extra db's needed to meet the same overall db of that frequency as say 80hz. This is probably why KK reco's multiple subs as it will give them a lot more power and cone displacement down low where its needed

This is possibly a better page for explaining how we hear bass as well

 

[bigboss]

Do you really need to hear lower frequencies to appreciate it? It's the thump you feel in your chest which is low frequency. And trust me, you don't need massive rooms for it. My buttkicker goes down to 9Hz and it doesn't create any audible sound. But it's the single biggest difference to my cinema experience.

I have no interest in buying things just to spite you.....my money is better spent on things that I like (not on things that you don't). And by the way, I'm not going for the Anthem as I'm interested in Dolby Atmos capability.

 

[bigboss]

You really should demo a buttkicker with your system.......I bet you'll buy it!

Demo 2 scenes:

1) The first scene in I am Legend where Will Smith goes hunting in the car with his dog.

2) The train crash scene in Super 8.

Movies will never be the same again without a buttlicker.