After all these years is stereo still a gimmick?

[MajorFubar]

When you go to a live performance, you don't really get stereo separation as such, it's all just a block of sound in front of you. Record producers are tought to spead things around to create the illusion of each instrument sitting in its own space. But that's not real, it's an exaggeration of real. If you go listen to an orchestra, unless you're the conductor you're not consciously aware of the instrument positions in the way they are presented to you in most stereo recordings. If you are lucky enough to sit slap bang in the middle not far rom the front, you might be vaguely aware the trombones are on the right and the piano is on the left for example, but really that's as much because your eyes can see the musicians sat there. Ten rows back or more and it's just sound coming from in front of you (discounting reverb of course). But at home, we expect pin-point positioning and many would even criticize an album that doesn't present the sound in such a way. We expect 'reality with the saturation turned up'.

I'm by no means the first to ponder this matter, 30-40 years ago the industry was working on binaural recording, which aimed to make stereo recordings sound more real, as well as simulating the illusion of 360 degree sound, with only two playback transducers. Unfortunately the results only worked well if you were listening on headphones; it didn't really work with speakers. Consequently it didn't take off in a big way.

 

[jmjones]

It always has been, but it’s a good one. Separation, moving sound objects, apparent position. All an illusion. But I’m not sure of the point you are making though. Would you rather be without it? I wouldn’t for one.

It will never be mainstream, but if you want to really test your tolerance for it, listen to Dark Side of the Moon on a multichannel system. Hilarious or horrible depending on your point of view.

 

[chebby]

Very impressive with well recorded BBC radio drama and moreso with headphones.

It’s not just music. In fact, for me at least, i’d say the stereo illusion is more important with drama than with music in that it draws you in to the whole ‘willing suspension of disbelief’ required to become completely absorbed.

 

[abacus]

It’s never been a gimmick as we have evolved with 2 ears and the ability to use them to hear a 360 degree sound field. (Something that cannot be produced with mono)

Binaural is the optimum record/playback system as it is recorded the same as what the ear hears, but is impractically in a normal room unless you enjoy isolation. (As has been mentioned in a previous post)

To get a 3 dimensional sound that you get in the real world with speakers, you need them all around you and stereo was just the start of this.

If you listen to an orchestra you can always pick out where the instrument sections are (Even with your eyes closed) so the claim that you can’t is nonsense. (Individual instruments (Unless playing solo) fair enough; but the orchestra is listened too as a whole)

Bill

 

[trevorok]

sorry but i got mono and stereo records and i love the stereo effect things evolve for e reason i hope*mail1*

 

[MajorFubar]

It always has been, but it’s a good one. Separation, moving sound objects, apparent position. All an illusion. But I’m not sure of the point you are making though. Would you rather be without it? I wouldn’t for one.

The point is we spend ages judging everything else in our system for accuracy and so-called fidelity, but we never consider that the way stereo is typically presented to us is not fidelity, depending on your definition of what fidelity is. Certainly the deliberately-exaggerated stereo effect common in most recordings is not the way we would hear the same music at a real concert, classical or otherwise, unless you're stood in the middle of the stage.

But I'm not advocating we all go back to mono, this thread was only intended to prvoke thought and discussion, that is all.

 

[trevorok]

i agee major but some of the effects through stereo make it pleasing to my ears which the mono recording does *drinks*not do

 

[steve_1979]

I wouldn't want 'real' most of the time. I listen at home in a small room not a large live venue. This means it is a very different situation from a live venue.

A brass instrument or drum kit going at it full bore in your living room would be a very unpleasant and borderline painful experience so to make it palatable the recording needs manipulating to make it sound nicer (note that I use the word nicer not better) for domestic consumption.

I also like an exaggerated stereo separation that allows me is pinpoint the exact position of each instrument on an imaginary stage. Sure it may not sound as widely separated as that in real life but I would argue that this resulting modified sound is in some (but not all) ways actually better and more enjoyable to listen to than the original performance.

So no 'stereo' is not a gimmick any more than TV is a gimmick even though neither of them is a 'real' experience. Stereo is a tool that allows us to listen to audio in the most pleasant way possible in a domestic environment without it costing too much money to buy.

 

[insider9]

By all means there is a lot of production that isn't necessarily faithful to what's been happening at point to of conception.

One thing worth realising is that musicians playing do get stereo. I had my bass player to my left, guitarist on my right with drums further away in the middle. So who's impressions are we going by? A musician who spends years working on material or impressions of someone who gets to see a gig in a one off situation and believes that's what was meant by artists.

To go further with this point. A lot of things we did were difficult to replicate at concerts as they'd either necessitate tech that wasn't yet available or involving sound engineers in rehearsal prior to gigs. A number of arrangements would require session musicians to join which is often unworkable for small hands. But once you're in a studio you get to do a lot of these things.

So no for me stereo is not a gimmick. And what of us get to hear live is often no what it sounds like in a rehearsal room at 4am.

Although there are some albums that give you the thrill of being there PJ Harvey "Dry" comes to mind straight away.

 

[Samd]

noun 1. an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal. If we agree on that definition, then stereo's a gimmick.

 

[steve_1979]

Many hifi systems when paired with a manipulated music recording will also have more bass than real life does too. How often do you feel bass in real life. Hardly ever right? Yet if you have large speakers or a subwoofer when listening to music at home you will feel the bass quite often even without needing to turn up the volume that much. Sure it may not be the most 'real' sound but this manipulated sound does feel better because of it.

Basically you wouldn't (in most cases) want a real sound in your home. It just wouldn't be pleasent to listen to. But the audio we do have is better and more enjoyable for a domestic environment it just requires us to suspend disbelief a bit. The same goes for the stereo image part too.

 

[steve_1979]

noun
1. an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal. If we agree on that definition, then stereo's a gimmick.

😀

True.

 

[insider9]

Come on Steve? I take it you've never played bass or been in the room with someone playing bass particularly if there was a live drum there playing at the same time.

For most bands playing with a live drum you will feel bass. It will fill the room. As much as you will feel each snap of the snare and every kick of a kick drum.

 

[steve_1979]

I'm not saying that you can't feel bass with live music. Of course you can especially in a small room or standing right next to a drum kit. But in a large environment with live unamplified music you will feel the bass much less if at all. So if it was recorded in a large room the bass will often need to be manipulated in the mixing/mastering process to make it feel right again.

 

[insider9]

Yes, I know what you mean. Yes, unamplified is a tad different but then again consider the difference in size between violin and double bass. Double bass doesn't have immediacy of amplified electric bass but it certainly doesn't lack in volume and can fill the room.

What's worth remembering that it's all down to how we perceive frequencies as described by Fletcher-Munson. It's all rather natural. Bass has to be much louder than other frequencies to be perceived as similar volume.

I'm not what many call a bass head but bass is very important for musical reproduction. From rhythm to stereo effects it's all about the bass 😉

 

[BigH]

I like stereo, when I listen to a jazz band I like the positioning as they are on the stage. Mono everthing is on top of each other straight down the middle. Sounds too congested. Also some of the effects on some albums are quite good which would not work at all in mono. For solo performers I prefer mono. But some early stereo was poor. I'm also not keen on drums coming out of both speakers, ie the right hand drum out of the left speaker and vv, does not sound right to me, rather have them as in jazz with the drums positioned in one place as on the stage, I know drum kit can be big but not the wide.

 

[jmjones]

For me it’s an enhancement. My idea of hearing “fidelity” is having the instrument there with you. Orchestra, band, soloist whatever. As soon as you go to a gig with a PA system it loses some of that fidelity. A good stereo recording is a way of getting as close to that as you can. How’s that?

 

[trevorok]

Not out missing middle and leg

 

[jmjones]

while I get my sandpaper tape out on that ball. *good*

 

[Kage]

On that front, a band I listen to; Tesseract is releasing their next album as a binaural one as an added extra.
The last one was a 5.1 as a bonus.
Really looking forward to listening to it.
Binaural audio is the future for headphones I think but not sure if much is released at present

In my opinion, stereo should always be placed as a band would like their music to be heard with someone sitting in the front row dead centre.

 

[Electro]

I'm not saying that you can't feel bass with live music. Of course you can especially in a small room or standing right next to a drum kit. But in a large environment with live unamplified music you will feel the bass much less if at all. So if it was recorded in a large room the bass will often need to be manipulated in the mixing/mastering process to make it feel right again.

It depends what you mean by bass, real deep low bass can only be heard or felt at a distance from it's source, what you hear close up is mainly upper bass.

I go to a lot of live gigs of varying types in fact I am addicted to live music *smile* , and believe me bass can really be felt vibrating the air in you lungs to a point that you can follow the bass line just with the vibration without actually hearing it.

Next time you are a a live gig put the palm of you hands onto a surface near you and feel the vibrations in sync with the music .

As for stereo it is far more than just a gimmik or placing instruments in a sound field, it is capable if done well of allowing you to hear sound reflections from the walls of the venue which in turn allows you to get the illusion of the size and shape of the venue that the music is being played in allowing a whole new world of musical realism at home.

With studio recordings it is down to the skill of the engineers to create live sounding recordings and some are far better at it than others.

One thing that really annoys me is when some recordings are mixed with a central vocal that has been recorded in a booth, ( I assume ) I can hear a dead area around the vocalist where there is no reverb but the rest of the musicians have an amount of reverb around them, it sounds like the vocalist is singing in a different room which in fact they were !

 

[MajorFubar]

I'm also not keen on drums coming out of both speakers, ie the right hand drum out of the left speaker and vv, does not sound right to me, rather have them as in jazz with the drums positioned in one place as on the stage, I know drum kit can be big but not the wide.

Yes and this is still very common even with contemporary music, eg toms over on one side, snare in the centre or slightly off centre, ride and crash panned to opposite sides. In real life, drums don't sound so excessively directional unless you're stood directly in front of the drum kit.

 

[Alantiggger]

I'm with Major on this BUT at the self same time, MAN, I just LOVE stereo sound through headphones, take late last night for example..... I was up quite late and listed to a few LP's of Heaven 17....... THIS/THAT kind of stereo sound, Wowzer !

 

[davedotco]

it really depends on what you define as stereo sound.

A really tight definition, that works for me is the use of a single pair of stereo microphones that are used to recreate what is essentially a live musical performance.

Starting in the 1930s with Alan Blumlein and coming right up to date with the Calrec Soundfield microphone that can be set up to emulate a Blumlein setup or a 'ambisonic' surround sound experience. These techniques can reproduce the original soundfield with some degree of accuracy but as with the original event, a solid three dimensional 'soundstage' is not what is produce.

Modern studio recordings are an entirely artificial construct existing only in the finished master, given that recorded music is rarely capable of reproducing the visceral impact of a live performance, I feel that the 'soundstage' thing has evolved to distract us from the lack of realism in most recoded music.

In recent years I have given up on 'soundstage' as being largely irrelevant to the enjoyment of recorded music, prefering instead to concentrate in attempting, as much as possible, to generate the live feel, punch and presence of the performance.

 

[Gaz37]

I started a thread on soundstage a while back & asked people to pick a track & state the location of any instrument, nobody was willing to do it.
I also struggle to understand how you can possibly get the same effect through headphones as you do through speakers bearing in mind that a speaker is pointed at you at right angles to your ears whereas the speakers in headphones are parallel to your your ears, how can the same mixing effect be reproduced when the sources (speakers) are at totally different angles?