After all these years is stereo still a gimmick?

[Samd]

In recent years I have given up on 'soundstage' as being largely irrelevant to the enjoyment of recorded music, prefering instead to concentrate in attempting, as much as possible, to generate the live feel, punch and presence of the performance.

It would be great if you could expand on that please.

 

[Electro]

it really depends on what you define as stereo sound.

A really tight definition, that works for me is the use of a single pair of stereo microphones that are used to recreate what is essentially a live musical performance.

Starting in the 1930s with Alan Blumlein and coming right up to date with the Calrec Soundfield microphone that can be set up to emulate a Blumlein setup or a 'ambisonic' surround sound experience. These techniques can reproduce the original soundfield with some degree of accuracy but as with the original event, a solid three dimensional 'soundstage' is not what is produce.

Modern studio recordings are an entirely artificial construct existing only in the finished master, given that recorded music is rarely capable of reproducing the visceral impact of a live performance, I feel that the 'soundstage' thing has evolved to distract us from the lack of realism in most recoded music.

In recent years I have given up on 'soundstage' as being largely irrelevant to the enjoyment of recorded music, prefering instead to concentrate in attempting, as much as possible, to generate the live feel, punch and presence of the performance.

It is perfectly possible to have both, If you are ever in Essex and at a loose end I am willing to demonstrate that, with live sounding spl's , live sounding punch and a soundstage . *yes3*

 

[BigH]

I wouldn't want 'real' most of the time. I listen at home in a small room not a large live venue. This means it is a very different situation from a live venue.

A brass instrument or drum kit going at it full bore in your living room would be a very unpleasant and borderline painful experience so to make it palatable the recording needs manipulating to make it sound nicer (note that I use the word nicer not better) for domestic consumption.

I also like an exaggerated stereo separation that allows me is pinpoint the exact position of each instrument on an imaginary stage. Sure it may not sound as widely separated as that in real life but I would argue that this resulting modified sound is in some (but not all) ways actually better and more enjoyable to listen to than the original performance.

So no 'stereo' is not a gimmick any more than TV is a gimmick even though neither of them is a 'real' experience. Stereo is a tool that allows us to listen to audio in the most pleasant way possible in a domestic environment without it costing too much money to buy.

Sounds like you have never been to a live rock concert in a smaller venue? After about 2 hours you are almost deaf. So yes it's different from listening at home. I don't think it's the recoding more to do with volume, if you play it at 100dbs it's proably similar to a live concert indoors. Much depends on the venue and volume, outdoors is different. I have been to the Royal Albert and it sounded like someones hifi system playing it was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. Have been to Hammersmith Odean and similar venues where it was pretty loud. Live concert levels are not for everyday listening.

 

[BigH]

I started a thread on soundstage a while back & asked people to pick a track & state the location of any instrument, nobody was willing to do it. I also struggle to understand how you can possibly get the same effect through headphones as you do through speakers bearing in mind that a speaker is pointed at you at right angles to your ears whereas the speakers in headphones are parallel to your your ears, how can the same mixing effect be reproduced when the sources (speakers) are at totally different angles?

DId not see that post, maybe when I was away. So you can't picture the soundstage on your system?

 

[davedotco]

Guys, I gave up on worrying about soundstage for a number of reasons.

Firstly, my last 'big' system involved big, electrostatic panels that threw a holographic soundstage you could walk into, totally glorious but I have absolutely no intention of spending that kind of money in my current circumstances.

Secondly, if I move my speakers to the 'correct' position and sit in the 'sweet spot', I get a pretty decent image, it lacks a bit of scale and precision compared to what is possible but really not at all bad for the modest cost of my current setup. In addition the speakers are very easy to place, working quite close to the wall without any bass issues.

Most importantly, it is just not that important to me anymore, I do not sit and listen intently in that uniquely 'hi-fi enthusiast' manner, as long as the music gets free of the speakers and into the room, I'm happy. Generally these days I am looking for a 'live' feel, for me this usually translates as as a combination of punch and presence.

In some ways this is the old 'boom and tish' balance but not too obviously done and heavily tweeked to avoid overbrightness and any hint of loose or flabby bass. That this can be achieved at such relatively modest cost impresses even me, sure some bigger bass cones would be great but the small floorstanders that I have are so room friendly both visually and musically, that I am loath to try and replace them.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I wouldn't want 'real' most of the time. I listen at home in a small room not a large live venue. This means it is a very different situation from a live venue.

A brass instrument or drum kit going at it full bore in your living room would be a very unpleasant and borderline painful experience so to make it palatable the recording needs manipulating to make it sound nicer (note that I use the word nicer not better) for domestic consumption.

I also like an exaggerated stereo separation that allows me is pinpoint the exact position of each instrument on an imaginary stage. Sure it may not sound as widely separated as that in real life but I would argue that this resulting modified sound is in some (but not all) ways actually better and more enjoyable to listen to than the original performance.

So no 'stereo' is not a gimmick any more than TV is a gimmick even though neither of them is a 'real' experience. Stereo is a tool that allows us to listen to audio in the most pleasant way possible in a domestic environment without it costing too much money to buy.

Sounds like you have never been to a live rock concert in a smaller venue? After about 2 hours you are almost deaf. So yes it's different from listening at home. I don't think it's the recoding more to do with volume, if you play it at 100dbs it's proably similar to a live concert indoors. Much depends on the venue and volume, outdoors is different. I have been to the Royal Albert and it sounded like someones hifi system playing it was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. Have been to Hammersmith Odean and similar venues where it was pretty loud. Live concert levels are not for everyday listening.

yes I agree with that I went to see Megadeath and pentera and I stood near the front and I wished I didn’t as I was half deaf for 3 days afterwards and then I’ve been to see the royal ballet and they have a live classical orchestra at the front and it very quite between the lowest parts of the score .

soundstage , imagine depends on your speakers and amplifier and I find the that live albums are the best for this and the quality of the recording like I’ve just brought U.D.O live album called Navy Night and that’s very good for soundstage and imagine and a top recording too for a live album .

 

[Gaz37]

I started a thread on soundstage a while back & asked people to pick a track & state the location of any instrument, nobody was willing to do it. I also struggle to understand how you can possibly get the same effect through headphones as you do through speakers bearing in mind that a speaker is pointed at you at right angles to your ears whereas the speakers in headphones are parallel to your your ears, how can the same mixing effect be reproduced when the sources (speakers) are at totally different angles?

DId not see that post, maybe when I was away. So you can't picture the soundstage on your system?

Not in the sense that people describe on here, yes I can hear certain stereo effects but not this so called depth , personally I think it's all in the imagination

 

[insider9]

I started a thread on soundstage a while back & asked people to pick a track & state the location of any instrument, nobody was willing to do it. I also struggle to understand how you can possibly get the same effect through headphones as you do through speakers bearing in mind that a speaker is pointed at you at right angles to your ears whereas the speakers in headphones are parallel to your your ears, how can the same mixing effect be reproduced when the sources (speakers) are at totally different angles?

DId not see that post, maybe when I was away. So you can't picture the soundstage on your system?

Not in the sense that people describe on here, yes I can hear certain stereo effects but not this so called depth , personally I think it's all in the imagination

Are your speakers right against the wall?

 

[Gray]

I started a thread on soundstage a while back & asked people to pick a track & state the location of any instrument, nobody was willing to do it. I also struggle to understand how you can possibly get the same effect through headphones as you do through speakers bearing in mind that a speaker is pointed at you at right angles to your ears whereas the speakers in headphones are parallel to your your ears, how can the same mixing effect be reproduced when the sources (speakers) are at totally different angles?

DId not see that post, maybe when I was away. So you can't picture the soundstage on your system?

Not in the sense that people describe on here, yes I can hear certain stereo effects but not this so called depth , personally I think it's all in the imagination

Many people, including me, neither listen to the sort of music, nor have the listening environment to allow it.

But given the right recording (and that's the key), speakers well out into a none too reverberant room - absolutely nothing between the speakers, I think you might be surprised Gaz.

 

[Gray]

If you are ever in Essex...

Wherabouts in Essex Electro?

 

[Gaz37]

Considering my observation regarding headphones & speakers it's impossible that the same illusion can be created by both. This is difficult to put across in writing & without diagrams but, for example, if an instrument appears to be to the right of your right speaker, on headphones it would appear to be in front of your right eye.
Get where I'm coming from?

 

[Electro]

If you are ever in Essex...

Wherabouts in Essex Electro?

South Ockendon 10 to 15 mins from junction 30 of the M25

 

[Electro]

I started a thread on soundstage a while back & asked people to pick a track & state the location of any instrument, nobody was willing to do it. I also struggle to understand how you can possibly get the same effect through headphones as you do through speakers bearing in mind that a speaker is pointed at you at right angles to your ears whereas the speakers in headphones are parallel to your your ears, how can the same mixing effect be reproduced when the sources (speakers) are at totally different angles?

DId not see that post, maybe when I was away. So you can't picture the soundstage on your system?

Not in the sense that people describe on here, yes I can hear certain stereo effects but not this so called depth , personally I think it's all in the imagination

It's an illusion but it's not imagined, some sounds can appear to come from 30 feet or more behind the speakers completely beyond the room boundaries, other sounds can project right into the room and appear to come from inside the listening room itself.

 

[Gray]

If you are ever in Essex...

Wherabouts in Essex Electro?

South Ockendon 10 to 15 mins from junction 30 of the M25

It's nice to come from Essex (just don't go there) I'm Southend, Doug's Witham. All three of us have got PMC speakers.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

It's nice to come from Essex (just don't go there) I'm Southend, Doug's Witham. All three of us have got PMC speakers.

Must be an Essex-boy thang *biggrin* But Electro's are waaay better than ours *man_in_love*

 

[Gray]

It's nice to come from Essex (just don't go there) I'm Southend, Doug's Witham. All three of us have got PMC speakers.

Must be an Essex-boy thang *biggrin* But Electro's are waaay better than ours *man_in_love*

Our Fisher-Price versions of grown-up PMC.

 

[Gaz37]

I started a thread on soundstage a while back & asked people to pick a track & state the location of any instrument, nobody was willing to do it. I also struggle to understand how you can possibly get the same effect through headphones as you do through speakers bearing in mind that a speaker is pointed at you at right angles to your ears whereas the speakers in headphones are parallel to your your ears, how can the same mixing effect be reproduced when the sources (speakers) are at totally different angles?

DId not see that post, maybe when I was away. So you can't picture the soundstage on your system?

Not in the sense that people describe on here, yes I can hear certain stereo effects but not this so called depth , personally I think it's all in the imagination

It's an illusion but it's not imagined, some sounds can appear to come from 30 feet or more behind the speakers completely beyond the room boundaries, other sounds can project right into the room and appear to come from inside the listening room itself.

So if that were true an instrument sounding 30ft behind speakers would sound 30ft to the left or right of your ears on headphones, equally anything appearing to to sound beyond sides of the speakers would be behind or in front of you on headphones.
That's simple logic

 

[Electro]

It's nice to come from Essex (just don't go there) I'm Southend, Doug's Witham. All three of us have got PMC speakers.

Must be an Essex-boy thang *biggrin* But Electro's are waaay better than ours *man_in_love*

Our Fisher-Price versions of grown-up PMC.

We should start an Essex boy's PMC club ! *biggrin*

 

[Electro]

I started a thread on soundstage a while back & asked people to pick a track & state the location of any instrument, nobody was willing to do it. I also struggle to understand how you can possibly get the same effect through headphones as you do through speakers bearing in mind that a speaker is pointed at you at right angles to your ears whereas the speakers in headphones are parallel to your your ears, how can the same mixing effect be reproduced when the sources (speakers) are at totally different angles?

DId not see that post, maybe when I was away. So you can't picture the soundstage on your system?

Not in the sense that people describe on here, yes I can hear certain stereo effects but not this so called depth , personally I think it's all in the imagination

It's an illusion but it's not imagined, some sounds can appear to come from 30 feet or more behind the speakers completely beyond the room boundaries, other sounds can project right into the room and appear to come from inside the listening room itself.

So if that were true an instrument sounding 30ft behind speakers would sound 30ft to the left or right of your ears on headphones, equally anything appearing to to sound beyond sides of the speakers would be behind or in front of you on headphones. That's simple logic

My room acoustics do play a part in the experience, I have spent many hours experimenting with acoustic panels and other unusual techniques to make my room sound to my taste as far as possible much like some good venues do .

I had a fellow come to my place to buy some speakers from me a while ago, he had a valve based system and a highly modified cd player with a valve output stage added to it so he was quite an enthusiast .

So I offered to demo my system to him as you do and I have never seen a face look so shocked, he said he had never heard a system produce a soundstage that allowed the speakers to completey dissapear and the music come from it's own position in space including depth, width and height.

With some good live recordings it sounds like the venue has been added to the end of my room !

I may have shot myself in the foot because he didn't buy the speakers I was selling . *sad*

 

[insider9]

You're not comparing like for like, Gaz. When listening via speakers you will hear the opposite channel in your other ear. Say left speaker in right ear. When listening to headphones you're only listening to one channel at a time with no overspill. If you want you can use Crossfeed to emulate speaker sound on headphones.

There's a whole field of science dealing with these things so they are genuine and can be described and recreated. Even if they are attempts to trick our sense. Soundstage is an actual phenomenon and if you can't hear it there's something wrong with how you setup your system. Or very big destructive influences of your room acoustics.

 

[BigH]

I started a thread on soundstage a while back & asked people to pick a track & state the location of any instrument, nobody was willing to do it. I also struggle to understand how you can possibly get the same effect through headphones as you do through speakers bearing in mind that a speaker is pointed at you at right angles to your ears whereas the speakers in headphones are parallel to your your ears, how can the same mixing effect be reproduced when the sources (speakers) are at totally different angles?

DId not see that post, maybe when I was away. So you can't picture the soundstage on your system?

Not in the sense that people describe on here, yes I can hear certain stereo effects but not this so called depth , personally I think it's all in the imagination

Many people, including me, neither listen to the sort of music, nor have the listening environment to allow it.

But given the right recording (and that's the key), speakers well out into a none too reverberant room - absolutely nothing between the speakers, I think you might be surprised Gaz.

I have quite a few things between the speakers and they are only about 18 inches out from the wall, I don't find it makes much differencce with my speakers even if they are back against the wall, some people wall mount them with good results. I still get good soundstage, try a stereo jazz recording. It's not imagination, if the sound comes out of the left speaker thats where the instrument will be, out of right it will on the right, same sound out of both it should be in the centre, same sound but slightly more out of one chanel with move the position to the right or left of centre. For stereo effects try Roger Waters "Amused to Death", the dog bark sounds if it's over my right shoulder, how do they that?

Also try "A Journey Into Stereo Sound", some interesting effects on there.

How are your speakers Gaz set up?

 

[MajorFubar]

Soundstage isn't literally real, it's a construct of our brain interpretting sounds from different directions and with variations in their phase and timing, same as occurs naturally. It is however deliberate. It can be either natural as recorded by the microphones or artifically created by software or boxes of tricks during a mix.

 

[BigH]

Of course headphones will have different effects from speakers. Some effects on heaphones can't be reproduced by speakers, well not 2 speakers anyway, as said in OP about binaural recording. Try that Amused to Death first track, where does the dog bark seem to be? I don't have headphones set up to try it.