Advice about Phono Pre-amp

[miketruman]

Hi, I'm new to this forum but I've been picking up some good information from it for a while and I thought I would post this, hoping for some advice from all ou knowledgeable people. A couple of years ago I thought it was about time for me to upgrade my late 80's hi fi and, since then, I've been bitten by upgrade-itis. Not that it's a bad thing and I haven't finished yet. So my question is about a phono pre-amp. My system at the moment is Project X2 with Hanah EL cart, Arcam FMJ A39 amp, Kef R3 and an Arcam r-phono preamp. I also have a Cambridge CXNv2 for streaming.
I thought about upgrading the Cambridge (only a matter of time and saving up) but I'd like to get the analogue source sorted out first. With a budget of around £1k (or maybe a bit more) what pre-amp would improve on the r-phono in terms of detail, soundstage and all the other lovely things my LPs should be delivering?
Hope you can help,
Mike Truman

 

[iMark]

Sounds to me like the Law of Diminishing Returns. I wonder how much better more expensive equipment will sound than the very good setup you already own.

I would buy records instead.

 

[Al ears]

Welcome to the forum Mike. I hope I can answer your question.
To a point iMark makes sense but I think, certainly with the more expensive cartridges and moving coils at that, the Law of Diminishing Returns start much further up the price range than it would if using cheaper moving magnet cartridges if you understand what I mean.

In my experience (I do have a fair bit), and with what is available within your price range, I have no doubt whatsoever that the best you can get would be the Tom Evans Microgroove+ X. This is at the very top of your budget.
Down at £500 I would have to say the MOFI Ultraphono
Halfway in between the two, and ideal if you have any older LPs that did not use RIAA equalization, is the Pro-ject Phono Box RS

Great cartridge that Hana EL, my next cartridge may very well be the ML..... as long as I manage to keep my job

 

[Clarkey_71]

I'd always throw Graham Slee in to the mix too. I've used a couple of his units and they always seem to punch above their weight. Most of his MC and MM phono stages fall into your price bracket. He used to offer a home demo, but don't know if that is still on the table.
You mention you might be able to go a little higher.
Have you considered an ex dem or secondhand Bel Canto? A friend of mine has one of these and it sounds really good.
I'd also give a strong shout out for the EAT E Glo Petit.
This is what I use and can't fault it. It's a lovely valve phono stage and in my opinion sounds fantastic. I replaced my more expensive Trichord Diablo with this. The Diablo was great, but the Petit is awesome.
Food for thought maybe and apologies if I've confused the issue!

 

[rainsoothe]

Avid Pulsus, if you can afford it, should be on your list.

 

[Al ears]

Didn't mention the EAT E-Glo Petit, it's very good by all accounts. However it is over your £1000 by about £300
Agree this should indeed be on a list of possibles, I would probably have one if I didn't have my Tom Evans Groove Anniversary.....

However, if I may be so bold, might I suggest going for the mid or lower priced preamps on my list but also sell on your EL and go up a step by buying the SL.
This cartridge and the mid-priced preamp certainly would be a well balanced step up on the analogue audio front.

 

[miketruman]

Thanks everyone, I'm certainly aware of the law of diminishing returns and, I suppose, that was the reason for the post in the first place. I wanted to draw on all the experience that's out there to see what might be better. Interesting suggestion about upgrading the EL to SL and I'll look into that. I've made a list and I'm going to start my research but if there are more suggestions I'm all ears!
Thanks again,
Mike

 

[Al ears]

Thanks everyone, I'm certainly aware of the law of diminishing returns and, I suppose, that was the reason for the post in the first place. I wanted to draw on all the experience that's out there to see what might be better. Interesting suggestion about upgrading the EL to SL and I'll look into that. I've made a list and I'm going to start my research but if there are more suggestions I'm all ears!
Thanks again,
Mike

"I'm all ears!"
No, I'm Al ears........ haha!

 

[Al ears]

Avid Pulsus, if you can afford it, should be on your list.

Good call but it's nearly double his budget

 

[Al ears]

Thanks everyone, I'm certainly aware of the law of diminishing returns and, I suppose, that was the reason for the post in the first place. I wanted to draw on all the experience that's out there to see what might be better. Interesting suggestion about upgrading the EL to SL and I'll look into that. I've made a list and I'm going to start my research but if there are more suggestions I'm all ears!
Thanks again,
Mike

Hope you didn't think I was being cheeky regarding that cartridge upgrade its just the way my logic works and would probably what I would do in your situation.
If you had the £1000 to spend then if it all went on the preamp you might end up with a set-up that isn't quite balanced.
By taking a bit of that £1000 and adding it to what you might get by selling on your current cartridge and buying a preamp around £750 you'd end up with a balanced set-up that isn't two steps up the ladder more like four.
Having said that I know my set-up looks unbalanced but it isn't really ..... I got the phono preamp at an extremely good price
Anyway, best of luck with your research and let us know your descision

 

[Clarkey_71]

I would buy records instead.

Love this!

 

[Clarkey_71]

Thanks everyone, I'm certainly aware of the law of diminishing returns and, I suppose, that was the reason for the post in the first place. I wanted to draw on all the experience that's out there to see what might be better. Interesting suggestion about upgrading the EL to SL and I'll look into that. I've made a list and I'm going to start my research but if there are more suggestions I'm all ears!
Thanks again,
Mike

I would say you're a little way off the law of diminishing returns zone just yet. For me that comes when you start buying components at £2k+.
There are so many ways you can go right now!
I loved the thrill of the chase and spent many a happy year tweaking odd bits here and there in your price range.
It never leaves you to be honest, it just costs a bleedin' fortune to keep the chase going.
I guess my advice would always be to push your budget as far as you can. If you can't buy it this month, buy it in 4 or 5 months.
Hifi is an expensive hobby, but that's the deal we make. Growing up, my mates had decent cars. I had £500 bangers, but a lovely hifi!
In a year's time you might not miss the money, but you don't want to look back wishing you'd just spent that extra £200. That's approx 7 Chinese takeaways!
Well, that's how I justify it to my understanding partner!

 

[Clarkey_71]

Didn't mention the EAT E-Glo Petit, it's very good by all accounts. However it is over your £1000 by about £300
Agree this should indeed be on a list of possibles, I would probably have one if I didn't have my Tom Evans Groove Anniversary.....

I can't praise the Petit enough. Performs well above its pay band to my ears.
Definitely one to consider if you are thinking of a change at some point.
I did look at their cartridges, but there was some doubt they would fit on my arm.
I upgraded my Lyra instead and very happy with it.

 

[miketruman]

Hope you didn't think I was being cheeky regarding that cartridge upgrade its just the way my logic works and would probably what I would do in your situation.
If you had the £1000 to spend then if it all went on the preamp you might end up with a set-up that isn't quite balanced.
By taking a bit of that £1000 and adding it to what you might get by selling on your current cartridge and buying a preamp around £750 you'd end up with a balanced set-up that isn't two steps up the ladder more like four.
Having said that I know my set-up looks unbalanced but it isn't really ..... I got the phono preamp at an extremely good price
Anyway, best of luck with your research and let us know your descision

Not at all, it's a very interesting thought and balance is at the heart of what I'm trying to do. My r-phono was quite good for the money (£399 if I remember right) but is probably not performing as well as the other components. If you were to spent around £750 on a pre-amp, which ones would you suggest I look at?

I would say you're a little way off the law of diminishing returns zone just yet. For me that comes when you start buying components at £2k+.
There are so many ways you can go right now!
I loved the thrill of the chase and spent many a happy year tweaking odd bits here and there in your price range.
It never leaves you to be honest, it just costs a bleedin' fortune to keep the chase going.
I guess my advice would always be to push your budget as far as you can. If you can't buy it this month, buy it in 4 or 5 months.
Hifi is an expensive hobby, but that's the deal we make. Growing up, my mates had decent cars. I had £500 bangers, but a lovely hifi!
In a year's time you might not miss the money, but you don't want to look back wishing you'd just spent that extra £200. That's approx 7 Chinese takeaways!
Well, that's how I justify it to my understanding partner!

 

[miketruman]

Not at all, it's a very interesting thought and balance is at the heart of what I'm trying to do. My r-phono was quite good for the money (£399 if I remember right) but is probably not performing as well as the other components. If you were to spent around £750 on a pre-amp, which ones would you suggest I look at?

Costing a fortune is right but it's sooo much fun! I think I'll try the takeaway idea on my missus - what are my chances?

 

[miketruman]

Sounds to me like the Law of Diminishing Returns. I wonder how much better more expensive equipment will sound than the very good setup you already own.

I would buy records instead.

Yes, I'm wondering too but so many good suggestions here. I'm buying vinyl too, but I'm quite picky and (like lots of people) only buy if I've been impressed with the streamed version.

 

[Clarkey_71]

Costing a fortune is right but it's sooo much fun! I think I'll try the takeaway idea on my missus - what are my chances?

You can only but try!

 

[Al ears]

£750? = Pro-ject Phono Box RS or Tom Evans Microgroove X Mk2

 

[Al ears]

As a follow up it may be timely but this months edition of HiFi Choice magazine has a phono stage Group Test.
These ranged from the Musical Fidelity MX-Vynl (£700) to the Primare R35 and Leema Acoustics Elements Ultra (both at £1350)

......................and the outright winner is?.......................

Tom Evans MicroGroove+ X Mk2 (£1000)

I will not say I told you so.....honest
Not much to look at, granted, but then again it's sound quality that matters isn't it?

 

[miketruman]

As a follow up it may be timely but this months edition of HiFi Choice magazine has a phono stage Group Test.
These ranged from the Musical Fidelity MX-Vynl (£700) to the Primare R35 and Leema Acoustics Elements Ultra (both at £1350)

......................and the outright winner is?.......................

Tom Evans MicroGroove+ X Mk2 (£1000)

I will not say I told you so.....honest
Not much to look at, granted, but then again it's sound quality that matters isn't it?

Yes, I've read the HI Fi Choice reviews but it's not really comprehensive. I don't think any of the units recommended in this thread were in that review and I always worry about the reason certain units were chosen for review (if you know what I mean - or am I just too cynical). I have to say I'm leaning towards the Tom Evan unit at the moment, it does look like a winner to me and I can afford it. I was nearly sold on the EAT Petit - it just looks so cool! But it is outside of my budget and I would have to do more saving and I'm a bit worried about valves vs solid state and, on reflection, it might be an upgrade too far (it's those diminishing returns again).
Thanks again for all the advice - I'll post my final decision when it's made!
Mike

 

[Al ears]

Know what you mean, certainly a couple of those preamps were outside of your budget but the Lehmann Black Cube and certainly the Primare have always received great reviews in the past. The group may have looked odd but there are so many to choose from in the £500-1500 range it's surprising they managed to cut it down to the number they did review.
I'd certainly like an E-Glo Petit just for it's looks even if I never got around to plugging it in....

 

[Clarkey_71]

I'd certainly like an E-Glo Petit just for it's looks even if I never got around to plugging it in....

If you did plug it in, I can guarantee you wouldn't be unplugging any time soon! It's a beaut!

 

[miketruman]

So, I thought I'd do an update on this thread, though I don't know if anyone's viewing it at the moment. I opted in the end for the Tom Evans Audio Design MicroGroove+ X Mk2 and paid £995 for it. I had to wait a frustrating month but at last it's here, installed and I've spent a week or two re-listening to a load of albums.
I decided against the E-Glo essentially because it was a bit out of my budget but, more than that, because of the valves. I'm from a generation (yes, that old!) that only had valves and I remember them as smelly, flakey if not seated correctly, hot and prone to sudden failure which then meant a lot of rummaging around trying to find an equivalent (they never seemed to be the same reference number twice but perhaps that's just my faulty memory). I'm sure things have changed in the last half century or more, but there it is.
Anyway - I can report that my original aim has been met, beyond my expectations. Every album I hear has new information revealed, sometimes complete new instruments somewhere in the background. Possibly for the first time I understand the concept of an amp being 'fast' or having good 'timing' and, on reflection, I think it has something to do with attack and decay of notes/musical sounds. If the attack is slow then the music is likely to sound a bit sloppy and, I suppose, slow. this is by no means a technical point, just the way I see it. Also, pretty much everything sounds so much more musical and engaging and in some way 'present' which means that I can spend a long time just listening and not be tempted to read or whatever at the same time. As an example, the new Diana Krall album sounds as if she's in the room with me - I should be so lucky!
This pre-amp sits beautifully in my set-up and, I believe, is worth every penny to me. I don't say it would be right for everyone but if you have a similar range of kit and are tempted, then I would absolutely say it is worth it. Now my hi-fi is complete for the time being, I'm satisfied and I'm going to stop tweaking and take iMark's advice and buy more records to enjoy!
Thanks for all your advice,
Mike

 

[Al ears]

So, I thought I'd do an update on this thread, though I don't know if anyone's viewing it at the moment. I opted in the end for the Tom Evans Audio Design MicroGroove+ X Mk2 and paid £995 for it. I had to wait a frustrating month but at last it's here, installed and I've spent a week or two re-listening to a load of albums.
I decided against the E-Glo essentially because it was a bit out of my budget but, more than that, because of the valves. I'm from a generation (yes, that old!) that only had valves and I remember them as smelly, flakey if not seated correctly, hot and prone to sudden failure which then meant a lot of rummaging around trying to find an equivalent (they never seemed to be the same reference number twice but perhaps that's just my faulty memory). I'm sure things have changed in the last half century or more, but there it is.
Anyway - I can report that my original aim has been met, beyond my expectations. Every album I hear has new information revealed, sometimes complete new instruments somewhere in the background. Possibly for the first time I understand the concept of an amp being 'fast' or having good 'timing' and, on reflection, I think it has something to do with attack and decay of notes/musical sounds. If the attack is slow then the music is likely to sound a bit sloppy and, I suppose, slow. this is by no means a technical point, just the way I see it. Also, pretty much everything sounds so much more musical and engaging and in some way 'present' which means that I can spend a long time just listening and not be tempted to read or whatever at the same time. As an example, the new Diana Krall album sounds as if she's in the room with me - I should be so lucky!
This pre-amp sits beautifully in my set-up and, I believe, is worth every penny to me. I don't say it would be right for everyone but if you have a similar range of kit and are tempted, then I would absolutely say it is worth it. Now my hi-fi is complete for the time being, I'm satisfied and I'm going to stop tweaking and take iMark's advice and buy more records to enjoy!
Thanks for all your advice,
Mike

Glad to hear that Mike.
All of my amplification is by Tom Evans, and believe it or not the power amplifier uses valves.
Cannot beat this guys stuff in my opinion, he's a bit of a guru to me and only located a few miles away .
That's a phono preamp you aren't going to beat even if you spent three times as much.
Enjoy !

 

[Clarkey_71]

So, I thought I'd do an update on this thread, though I don't know if anyone's viewing it at the moment. I opted in the end for the Tom Evans Audio Design MicroGroove+ X Mk2 and paid £995 for it. I had to wait a frustrating month but at last it's here, installed and I've spent a week or two re-listening to a load of albums.
I decided against the E-Glo essentially because it was a bit out of my budget but, more than that, because of the valves. I'm from a generation (yes, that old!) that only had valves and I remember them as smelly, flakey if not seated correctly, hot and prone to sudden failure which then meant a lot of rummaging around trying to find an equivalent (they never seemed to be the same reference number twice but perhaps that's just my faulty memory). I'm sure things have changed in the last half century or more, but there it is.
Anyway - I can report that my original aim has been met, beyond my expectations. Every album I hear has new information revealed, sometimes complete new instruments somewhere in the background. Possibly for the first time I understand the concept of an amp being 'fast' or having good 'timing' and, on reflection, I think it has something to do with attack and decay of notes/musical sounds. If the attack is slow then the music is likely to sound a bit sloppy and, I suppose, slow. this is by no means a technical point, just the way I see it. Also, pretty much everything sounds so much more musical and engaging and in some way 'present' which means that I can spend a long time just listening and not be tempted to read or whatever at the same time. As an example, the new Diana Krall album sounds as if she's in the room with me - I should be so lucky!
This pre-amp sits beautifully in my set-up and, I believe, is worth every penny to me. I don't say it would be right for everyone but if you have a similar range of kit and are tempted, then I would absolutely say it is worth it. Now my hi-fi is complete for the time being, I'm satisfied and I'm going to stop tweaking and take iMark's advice and buy more records to enjoy!
Thanks for all your advice,
Mike

Good to hear a happy ending at Christmas time.
Not sure about "smelly valves" though!!!