Hi folks, i bought a second hand onkyo c-7030 cd player after reading rave reviews and purchased it because of the wolfson dac inside. Later i realise that the later players had a dac change i think AKM. So i purchased a cambridge audio dacmagic 100 which does have wolfson, this got good reviews also. I'm wondering if it's just me or maybe snake oil because i can't hear a difference when connecting it to the player. I also purchased a second hand schiit bifrost for £300 to add to my oppo 203 about 6 months ago and again heard no great improvement so i resold it on ebay. I'm just wondering how much money do you have to spend to hear an appreciable difference.
Adding a dac
- Thread starter slunky
- Start date
Gray
Well-known member
nopiano
Well-known member
That’s interesting. My Linn streamer had a Wolfson WM8741 DAC, but when they upgraded it, they chose an AKM. In Linn’s case it was a AK4497EQ. They reengineered lots besides too.
Obviously there’s more to the sound than simply the DAC chip. And AKM subsequently had a factory fire and only recently got back into production, I believe.
You may have fallen for the chatter that everyone needs to upgrade the DAC that’s chosen by their CD player manufacturer. I imagine many wouldn’t find a meaningful difference. The Oppo had a decent ESS DAC I think.
Obviously there’s more to the sound than simply the DAC chip. And AKM subsequently had a factory fire and only recently got back into production, I believe.
You may have fallen for the chatter that everyone needs to upgrade the DAC that’s chosen by their CD player manufacturer. I imagine many wouldn’t find a meaningful difference. The Oppo had a decent ESS DAC I think.
aversaurus
Well-known member
That's a strange one as I have owned the c7030 still have it and I have owned several dac magics and I could tell a difference I found the sound had more life in it through the dac
Noddy
Well-known member
>£1000 according to some people
(let us know)
Don‘t be daft, no less than a Chord Hugo, a snip at just over £4,000 , is the bare minimum.
I own a Chord Mojo, a mere £400, I can’t hear any sound quality improvement over the £10 Apple DAC dongle, using Sennheiser HD600 and Audeze Sine cans with CD quality files on my iPhone. The only difference is higher volume with the hard to drive HD600. Measurements showed both the Chord to underperform at the price, and the dongle to massively overperform. There may be a difference, but it is very hard to do A/B tests.
Some DACs such as the one in the Wiim Mini are not so great, but these days anyone can buy a quality DAC chip for+/- £10, throw in supporting electronics, and Bob is the brother of one of your parents.
These expensive DACs are in my opinion a fetish, often packaged in fancy boxes designed to give the impression that the contents are superior, with tame journalists fawning over them.
Florestander
Well-known member
When push comes to shove -it is it all rather subjective, and depends to the greatest degree upon your own lugholes. I have in the past spent many £'s on supposed upgrade routes (new cable, bi-wiring, bi-amping, upgraded CD, upgraded tonearm and cartridge, separate power supplies etc etc) and whilst some of these tweaks appeared to make a difference (at least to me, but not to my wife), with the possible exception of the upgraded tonearm and cartridge, I am not sure that any gains were worth the additional expense. How much actual gain was achieved may be a moot point - it is to a large extent imeasureable and may in fact be due to my actually wishing to hear a difference that actually was not there. (although my listening position may have changed due to sitting on a far slimmer wallet!). And for some that is the drive - a seemingly endless search for the 'perfect' combination of components. For me it has been and continues to be elusive, largely because as i age, my hearing has changed, and I now hear things differently than years ago - partly natural , partly because I have become accustomed to listening for what I Iike, (so 'trained' in a sense). My advice would be simply to go with what you like and your budget allows. If an alternative DAC sound better to you, and it is a sound that you like, go with it- because that is (probably) as good as it gets in my opinion - although others may disagree of course, as is their entitlement.
Gray
Well-known member
Gray
Well-known member
I wonder how many have been underwhelmed, but just don't admit as much.
Thanks for all the replies, i for one am not prepared to spend silly money on a dac that MIGHT and i express the word MIGHT give me a smidgen of an increase in sound quality. I'll stick with what i have and buy more cds and records. Saying that i might upgrade my turntable, i currently have the rega p1 i changed the stylus for the lp gear carbon fidelity cfn3600le
and put that on the cartridge,sounds good to me. Was thinking about the rega p3 with exact cartridge or the p6 with same cartridge, thing is that's going to cost a couple of hundred £s when cartridge needs replacing, not just a matter of changing stylus.
and put that on the cartridge,sounds good to me. Was thinking about the rega p3 with exact cartridge or the p6 with same cartridge, thing is that's going to cost a couple of hundred £s when cartridge needs replacing, not just a matter of changing stylus.
aversaurus
Well-known member
I have owned DACs from the dac magic to my current Leema dac and I've always noticed a positive difference and i find a good dac essential peace of kit .I do like the earlier dac magics but that's just me
Florestander
Well-known member
Unfortunately, I think that this is one of those behaviours that we have and the marketeers exploit - and who can blame them? It is a competitive market and one where customers appear to be prepared to pay high prices,(and sometimes eye-wateringly so). The amount of relatively new kit that finds its way on to the second-hand market probably tells its own, more realistic story. Perhaps one for another thread...
twinkletoes
Well-known member
As ever in hifi its always about marginal gains, as it is with everything we buy! 2 cars travelling at 100mph is 100mph, it's the experience of getting there. Fit and finish, hand built vs machine built and so on.
It boils down to simple economics if they made topping's in the exact quantities, using the same materials and labour that Chord implement, toppings would cost the same, but topping make millions of them with little human intervention so you reap the benefits of that and the pitfalls that come with such massed produced products.
To answer your question of "how much to better?" To truly better a product (not just subtle changes) yes you are probably looking to spend north of 2-3k to truly get your "pointing a Rick Dalton" moment
My experience for what its worth:
I can't hear much of a difference between my Dac and NAD c540 over a short listen but as you listen closer those differences become more apparent. And quick AB's can be done with the amps line selections. Now they aren't night and day but they are very much there and there is a presentation difference. How much value you place on that is up to the individual, Do i regret my choice? no. Would i do it again? yes, because those changes to me are beneficial.
I will say this, a CD player is built from the ground up and tuned with all it components in mind there's more going on than just a DAC chip in fact one could argue you need to pay more attention to the output stage and the quality of the analogue circuit, they should have been able to tune out any flaws within a CD player design.
It boils down to simple economics if they made topping's in the exact quantities, using the same materials and labour that Chord implement, toppings would cost the same, but topping make millions of them with little human intervention so you reap the benefits of that and the pitfalls that come with such massed produced products.
To answer your question of "how much to better?" To truly better a product (not just subtle changes) yes you are probably looking to spend north of 2-3k to truly get your "pointing a Rick Dalton" moment
My experience for what its worth:
I can't hear much of a difference between my Dac and NAD c540 over a short listen but as you listen closer those differences become more apparent. And quick AB's can be done with the amps line selections. Now they aren't night and day but they are very much there and there is a presentation difference. How much value you place on that is up to the individual, Do i regret my choice? no. Would i do it again? yes, because those changes to me are beneficial.
I will say this, a CD player is built from the ground up and tuned with all it components in mind there's more going on than just a DAC chip in fact one could argue you need to pay more attention to the output stage and the quality of the analogue circuit, they should have been able to tune out any flaws within a CD player design.
plastic penguin
Well-known member
Well, IME of budget Dacs, when using in conjunction with a CD player they make little or no difference, perhaps slight tonal disparity.
Generally well sorted CDPs have really good Dacs built-in. The only advantage of a outboard Dac is flexibility.
record_spot
Well-known member
I can recommend the Cambridge DACMagic 200M - you'll like find a well discounted one direct from Cambridge Audio, which is what I did at the end of last year. It has the sound I like - clear, good detail, pretty impressive bottom end and I use it solely with my AVI actives. I wanted to try out the DSD and to a lesser degree, the MQA functionality.
It has good connectivity at the rear, including balanced capability, whilst the build is sturdy if not quite as heavy as it appears in the flesh.
My system - CD player, turntable and universal player currently sit on the rack, unused, not hooked up and haven't been touched for about five months now. Pretty amazing what a change in perspective makes.
It has good connectivity at the rear, including balanced capability, whilst the build is sturdy if not quite as heavy as it appears in the flesh.
My system - CD player, turntable and universal player currently sit on the rack, unused, not hooked up and haven't been touched for about five months now. Pretty amazing what a change in perspective makes.
jjbomber
Well-known member
Audition, audition, audition. Then YOU know what is best for YOU.
record_spot
Well-known member
Never really been fully convinced of that - there's so many products and so many subsequent combinations. How many auditions do you need before you lose track of what worked with what?
I tend to go with knowing the kind of sound you like, shortlisting those products with those characteristics and then trialling in the home. Don't think I've demoed anything in a shop for over a decade now. Works for me at any rate!
Noddy
Well-known member
As ever in hifi its always about marginal gains, as it is with everything we buy! 2 cars travelling at 100mph is 100mph, it's the experience of getting there. Fit and finish, hand built vs machine built and so on.
It boils down to simple economics if they made topping's in the exact quantities, using the same materials and labour that Chord implement, toppings would cost the same, but topping make millions of them with little human intervention so you reap the benefits of that and the pitfalls that come with such massed produced products.
To answer your question of "how much to better?" To truly better a product (not just subtle changes) yes you are probably looking to spend north of 2-3k to truly get your "pointing a Rick Dalton" moment
My experience for what its worth:
I can't hear much of a difference between my Dac and NAD c540 over a short listen but as you listen closer those differences become more apparent. And quick AB's can be done with the amps line selections. Now they aren't night and day but they are very much there and there is a presentation difference. How much value you place on that is up to the individual, Do i regret my choice? no. Would i do it again? yes, because those changes to me are beneficial.
I will say this, a CD player is built from the ground up and tuned with all it components in mind there's more going on than just a DAC chip in fact one could argue you need to pay more attention to the output stage and the quality of the analogue circuit, they should have been able to tune out any flaws within a CD player design.
Some say that expensive amplifiers have better sound than more run of the mill ones. Many years ago Bob Carver was challenged to make one of his budget amps sound like a premium one. There were some people with supposedly superior hearing who acted as judges. He fiddled away for quite a few days, working very hard, swapping components in and out, until he achieved the desired result. He did this for two very expensive amps. He then went on to sell budget amps that duplicated the two very expensive ones.
Engineers have solved the amplifier problem, and can design modest priced amps that perform beautifully. Differences are I assume due to different voicing by the designers. We need to pay more for high power, as that necessitates more expensive components to handle the higher power. We pay more for a fancy case and knobs. And we pay more for features, such as one or more built in DACs, and a phono stage. If you pay a lot more you are getting a particular voicing that you might not get elsewhere, and you are paying for a smaller company with lower production numbers, and hence higher overheads per unit. My opinion, and it is just that, is that a £2,000 CDT, or DAC, is not technically better than a £400 unit, though it might sound different. Some people will go on about jitter, and musicality etc.
I challenge anyone to tell the difference in a double blind test between two CDTs, or DACs, one priced at £400, the other at £1,000. My perception of my own system changes with my mood.
aversaurus
Well-known member
I get what your saying noddy but I don't agree you could tell the difference but which is better is up to the listener
Noddy
Well-known member
A shop demo may save a wasted home trial. I tried the Jern 11 speakers and knew in five minutes they were not for me. The problem is that many reviews, especially magazine ones, are of no use, in my opinion. They all raved about the Jerns. They all raved about the Powernode Edge, it didn’t live up to the hype at home, I should have demoed it first in the shop.
I have no idea what sound I like, but I chose items that test +/- neutral, on the grounds that I want to hear the music as intended, not a modifed form of the music. Many speakers are strongly voiced.
You’re right about the sheer number of products, and that does make sense to try and shortlist items. I used online measurements to figure out which brands produced neutral speakers, and which are markedly voiced. Oddly enough the first pair I took home hit the mark. And the modest price was the cherry on the cake. The second amp I tried lived up to the online claims and measurements i.e. neutral.
record_spot
Well-known member
I don't see the logic behind a shop demo might save a wasted home trial.
Sitting in a dealer's room? So right away, not your own room, listening to a product on not-your-system tells you I'm not sure what.
I'm comparing the product I'm interested in with the very gear it's going to be partnered with, all run in (for decades in some cases!) and all set up in my room. That's what works for me. Shop demo doesn't even come close.
Noddy
Well-known member
When I demoed speakers, I had them set up the same amp as I have back home. The streamer was irrelevant as it is a digital signal. Sure the room’s different, but you can decide if it is worth demoing the speakers at your home. The Jerns looked like, and were as heavy as, cannon balls. Heavy metal!
plastic penguin
Well-known member
A shop demo won't replicate your own room, but it does give you entry point in deciding what's the better component. Once you've decided then go for a home demo...
Shop demo isn't ideal but prefer that to buying a product blind off the internet.
This is the philosophy I used before buying the Dalis.
Gray
Well-known member
Exactly what I've just done.
Had to first ensure that the potential new speakers could meet my minimum HF quality requirement - the deal maker / breaker test for me.
Next step will be the home loan.
I've bought speakers before even hearing them in the past
Can't imagine ever doing that again.
WayneKerr
Well-known member
I'll keep quiet hereI've bought speakers before even hearing them in the past
.... (everything bought blind) Noddy
Well-known member
I'll keep quiet here
I once bought an Arcam Solo Movie based on magazine reviews that all said it was really great, it wasn’t. It was awful. It makes me wonder what they were drinking.
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