5.1.2 same as 7.1 to Denon?

[Samd]

Please excuse the idiot question! I currently have 5.1 using 3000 series Q Acoustics speakers coupled to a Denon 2300. Because of the layout of my room, rear surrounds seem out of the question as they would be in separate alcoves either side of a chimney breast. Two questions please:

1. Would my 'spare' Mission MCubes be OK to place near ceiling height directly above the 2 front floor standers or should I get a couple of QA smalls?

2. I can assign (through the Denon) the new speakers to 'Front Height', 'Top Front' or 'Front Dolby (Atmos)' but Denon classifies all these as 7.1. Which of these should I use please and are we just going through a naming convention change or would I need to change AVR to get 5.1.2?

 

[ellisdj]

In the features for the receiver it says up up to 5.1.2 so you should be fine.

However your placement of the speakers I feel will determine the overall effect.

We are debating this on the other thread - putting them at the front will add to the front sound stage - arguably the most important aspect.

Putting them at the back will enhance the surround effect.

But you shouldnt need a new receiver - it should decode and send the right info from the disc to the speakers depending on what you select as its designation - i.e. front height or atmos etc.

Maybe try out the options before final installation see what you prefer

 

[Samd]

Thanks for that. So 5.1.2 really is 7.1? As I can't use rears, I will go for near-ceiling fronts and, as I can change front height to Atmos etc at will, it would appear I can start drilling the walls!

Any comment on the speakers themselves (QA 3010s or Mission as mentioned) and do I place them as high as the brackets will allow?

I am following the other thread but given my knowledge at the moment, perhaps, 'following' would fall foul of the trade descriptions act!

 

[ellisdj]

I dont know the speakers - its always better to have them the same, so it depends on your levels of OCD.

However it is always better to try first drill second so be 100% on your decision before you install because its a pain redoing it - speaking from experience there.

 

[Samd]

I dont know the speakers - its always better to have them the same, so it depends on your levels of OCD.

However it is always better to try first drill second so be 100% on your decision before you install because its a pain redoing it - speaking from experience there.

Thanks. Agree entirely on trial first but can't see how I can place 2 bookshelf-type speakers 8/9 feet high without using brackets. Anyway due re-decoration so not too much of a problem but I will loose wire them before finally committing.

High as possible firing down?

 

[ellisdj]

Not sure on that one -

The new SVS speakers fire down or up

I have heard straight firing on wall ones working good in this role as well - firing down does make more sense at 9 feet I suppose

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Contemporary receivers' surround sound capabilities are described a by the number format X.Y.Z:

X = the number of channels for around-the-room (or in/on-the-walls) audio channels, e.g. front left, front right, centre, surround left, surround right, and so on.

Y = the number of subwoofer channels, usually 1 or more often these days 2, although you have to be careful that if it's a "2" it isn't 2 x 1 channel (i.e. mono) rather than 2 discrete (stereo) channels.

Z = the number of overhead channels. These can be genuine overhead speakers fitted in or on the ceiling or Atmos channels that use special Atmos speakers or add-on Atmos speakers. Either of the latter two use speakers angled upwards to fire sound at the ceiling and then bounce it back down to simulate the effect of proper overhead speakers.

Now, any receiver that's rated X.Y.Z can also drive (X+Z) around-the-room or in-the-wall speakers. You don't have to use the Atmos capabilities if you don't want to (or can't).

Your current setup is 5.1, or, in Atmos terms, a 5.1.zero. That means it is driving five surround sound channels - front left, centre, front right, and two side surround sound channels - plus one subwoofer. As an aside, there is nothign to stop you adding a second subwoofer to your setup.

Your Denon 2300 is a 7.2 or in Atmos parlance a 5.2.2 unit. So you can add another two channels.

A quick squint at the manual on line suggests you can either add two in / on ceiling speakers, or two front high speakers, or two rear surrounds. I have a Marantz SR-7010, and Marantz is the sister company to Denon, and my on-screen setup menu allows me to choose the layout I have, so yours should do so too. Once the human makes the basic setup choices, the receiver's "brains" take over.

If you can't fit in-ceilings and don't want to fit rear surrounds, I too would go for front high speakers, just like Ellis says. I would, however, see if you can use bluetooth speakers for your rears before deciding.

I keep banging on about them, but look at the Klipsch RP-140SA units. These can either be laid flat on their backs to bounce sound off a ceiling for simulated Atmos, or they can be hung on a wall with a single screw in the wall and the "keyhole" shaped slot in the back of the speaker cabinets. The speakers' fronts are angled, so the sound will either be pointed upwards to bounce sound off the ceiling or, fitted high on a wall, to point sound down towards your listening position.

If you don't want to use the Klipsch units, however, I would recommend another pair of your Q Acoustics 3000 series, fitted on brackets that angle the sound downwards towards the main listening position. You'll be maiking fuller use of your receiver's capabilities and the height will add to your audio experience. Just how much is an ongoing argument between the Flat Earth Society (aka Ellis) and the Atmos Fan Club (aka the rest of us around here).

 

[Samd]

Thanks. Your x,y,z is very clear. Denon, even whilst showing how to assign ceiling speakers, still use 7.1 parlance for, say, top front or top middle. It was that which threw me - I easily lose balance!

In terms of the rears not only would each be in a separate alcove (3 feet deep) but they would be less than a couple of feet from the surrounds which, of necessity, had to be head height and rear of the main positions.

I tried a couple of DTS X Blurays today and even on 5.1 (plus or minus zero!!) I was very impressed. Worth noting that BDs on the list of DTS X such as London has Fallen, HMV selling only DTS HD so watch out!

 

[simonlewis]

Worth noting that BDs on the list of DTS X such as London has Fallen, HMV selling only DTS HD so watch out!

You need to import it from america like amazon.com for DTS:X it's what i did. *biggrin*

 

[Samd]

Worth noting that BDs on the list of DTS X such as London has Fallen, HMV selling only DTS HD so watch out!

You need to import it from america like amazon.com for DTS:X it's what i did. *biggrin*

Thanks Simon. HMV had a few of those on the list - I bought Daddy's Home and Zoolander 2!! Others on the list were available but appear to require the 4k version in order to get DTS X. I don't know of any website which shows the type of sound for the BD.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

DTS:X was, if I remember correctly, a firmware update for most 2015 / early 2016 "vintage" receivers.

FWIW if you don't have overhead or upward firing ceiling bouncers, you probably shouldn't worry too much about getting Atmos or DTS:X source material anyway. A lot of BDs are still being released in 5.1 anyway, and if it's a mostly dialogue movie that's fine.

On the subject of rear surrounds, I think you have the option to use just one rear plus two sides for a 6.1 setup, maybe one rear and one front high. You need to read your manual to find out for sure. DTS:X, I think, only needs one rear anyway, as the designers of that codec figured you couldn't hear what's coming at you from behind well enough to know which shoulder the Millenium Falcon or whatever is coming over.

You might be able to persuade your missus to let you put one between the flying ducks or whatever's on your chimney breast. If the chimney breast is just plasterboard covering a gas fire flue, and therefore more decorative than solid brick, you could even fit one into the plasterboard, using a bluetooth speaker and a mains supply tapped off the back of a handy mains socket or just chisel out a groove in the plaster and bury the low voltage wire between the bluetooth speaker mains adaptor and the speaker itself with polyfilla.

On the subject of side surrounds, don't worry. Directly left-right from your listening position is best, especially if you have seven in / on / around-the-wall speakers. Consider experimenting, however, with designating them as rears, not sides, and see how you prefer the effects. You can probably still use front highs if you do this, but obviously if you fit a rear as mentioned above, this cuts down the number of available channels for front highs, and therefore your options.

On balance, I would go for the following in your situation:

1. Fit a pair of front highs near the ceiling, following the positioning guide in your manual, which probably means probably directly above or slightly further apart than your front left and front right, but for certain angled downwards and inwards as best you can towards the main listening position;

2. Designate your channels as front left, centre, front right, front high left, front high right, rear left, rear right.

3. Don't bother with a second subwoofer unless you think you need more "oomph" as your receiver model only decodes in point-one mode, so even if you fit a second sub you'll only get twin mono outputs, not stereo subwoofers. A bigger (12 or 15 inch) sub with more power will take up less room overall.

Sadly, your receiver can't drive more channels if you fitted an external power amp. It only decodes (and internally amplifies) seven main channels. So don't get hoodwinked into that route.

All of the above should be possible to set up using the on-TV setup process, BTW.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

PS check you receiver manual to see if you can go with one front high and one rear. If you can (and you figure out how to mount them) then you could go front left, centre, front right, surround left, surround right, single front high, single rear.

OR... You could buy atmos modules for your side or front speakers, but given ( a) they don't usually work very well and (b) your Q Acoustics are probably too small to perch Atmos ceiling-bouncers anyway, I would avoid doing so.

OR... You could put on-walls near your ceiling half way down the room, like the Klipsch or that other brand or even another pair of Q Acoustics angled downwards, and designate those as your overheads.

OR... You could just move house.

Oh how I lament the passing of the cathode ray tube, just three or four channels (actually worth watching) and if you were posh a VHS..

 

[ellisdj]

Dual mono bass is generally recommended for movie soundtracks if you crossover at 80hz ish. No issue running dual subs from a mono receiver. There are ways round this as well

 

[Samd]

Clearing up a couple of points from my end and thanks for continued help.

1. DTS X firmware update done.

2. Denon 2300 only supports the re-assigning of the amp which would normally drive the rear surround speakers. I can assign it to Front Height, Atmos uppers, Ceiling top or middle etc.

3. I can use only 1 Rear and select that on the Denon but there is no facility to re-map the 7th speaker.

4. I cannot, therefore, have rear surrounds unless I have surrounds also - straight 7.1

Options (unless missing something obvious) are Front Height or Front Height but not necessarily in that order!!

 

[ellisdj]

That made me chuckle on a second read - let us know how you get on and what if any benefit you get after you have done your install

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Dual mono bass is generally recommended for movie soundtracks if you crossover at 80hz ish. No issue running dual subs from a mono receiver. There are ways round this as well

Says the guy who keeps harping on about overhead speakers are a waste of time and how you can't tell directionality below 80 Hz ( although MY ears clearly can).
My point is two small subs don't equal one big one. They take up much more room and generally don't go that low. BTDT with two Polk PSW-10 10 inches I bought cheap from the Polk "seconds" shop on eBay USA. One of which developed a nasty rasping grumble, but that's by the by. The frequency response on my 10-inchers drops off substantially below 50 Hz (they're only rated down to 40) and that's pretty typical for a 10-inch sub apparently. For the full earth moving experience you need subs that go as close to 20 Hz as you can get.
Yes you can wire two subs to one sub RCA out, simply use a single RCA male to twin RCA female splitter. I think, however, the OP's AVR has twin sub outs, so not an issue.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Option 5:

Upgrade from Wife 1.0 to Wife 2.0...

Although, that too, is not without its problems...