10 pounds saved my speakers ( Long post warning

newlash09

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Hi all :)
I was so impressed with the pairing of the parasound and the concept 40's that I was in no hurry to unpack the PMC twenty 26's for the first few days. I found it difficult to imagine that a change of speaker could further improve the sound quality i was getting from this combination. So finally with a lot of excitment, I unpacked the PMC's and placed them on the inside of the concept 40's.
And once I started playing, I was left scratching my head. The sound was muddy and distorted, and there was no resemblance of any sound staging to speak of. I thought that probably speakers at this level, demand a different level of electronics and recordings, as they are too transparent. And the PMC's were showing up the poor quality of my low bit rate mp3's. And once I switched back to the concept 40's they sounded miles better. Excellent clarity and sound staging again. I sat there sinking in my chair. Counting all my lost money.
Then i again plugged back the PMC's and the sound was almost emanating only from the right speaker, skewing the entire sound stage. I was used to this in my listening position. As the right speaker gets more boundary re-enforcement. I tried using the balance control on the amp to center the sound stage again. And found that I had to load the left speaker heavily to get the vocals in the center.
It was at this point, that I realised that there was something wrong with the left speaker. I peeled off the grill, and found the left mid-bass dome heavily dented inwards. Could'nt figure out how this could happen during transportation as the outer wave guide / driver gaurd was still intact. Sent off a email to the dealer regarding the same. However, could'nt say much, as one of my friends tested the speakers before their packing. The dealer promised to contact the distributor for PMC in india to arrange new mid range domes. Since I was anyways going to get new domes, I decided to do something about the dented driver. After a little reading and watching you tube videos, I decided to use a vacuum cleaner gently to pull out the dented dome. Since the dome had a gaurd, I kept the vacumm hose on top of the gaurd, and gently closed the surrounding area with a cloth in stages to adjust the suction pressure being exerted on the dome. Bingo, the dome was out in no time, and after a few more suctions from different sides / angles, the dome was perfectly round again. Checked with a torch again and felt satisfied. Just to be sure that there was no distortion between the left and right mid range domes, I disconnected the brass bar connecting the three driver terminals from the tweeter, just to keep the mid range and bass driver in circuit. Now plugged in the amp directly into the mid bass driver on both speakers, and played some vocal centric numbers at low volume. As the music played, I alternated the balance control on the amp from full left to full right. I repeated this continously on several tracks, and absolutely could'nt hear any difference between the left and the right speaker mid range domes. I was now delighted. And plugged in the brass bars again to connect all the three drivers, and started playing music again. This time it was miles better, now the vocals centered in the middle, with the balance control just slightly loaded towards the left.
But, on continous listening, felt something was amiss again somewhere. Now I decided to check each driver indipendently, and played music at very low volume, with my ear pressed to each driver. And alas the left tweeter was dead too. Absolutely no sound coming out of it what so ever. Now I was really frustrated, and realised that I had bought a lemon. Realised my friend didnt pay enough attention to the tweeter ( Might not be his fault, as the cross over is a high 3400 hz, even I took sometime to guess that there was something wrong ). Again sent another mail to the dealer complaining that I was sold a lemon, and would need a replacement of tweeters also.
At this point, I didnt give a damn about the speakers anymore. A sense of betrayal and vengence took over, and I was desperate to either salvage the situation, or drop the speakers from my 9th floor balcony, and forget that I ever bought them. So, went on google again and saw some vids on testing tweeters. Went out and bought myslef a multimeter and allenkey set. I opened the screws holding the cross over plate in the back of the speakers, and dismantled both the tweeters. And upon testing the right tweeter, it was found okay with a impedence of 5.1 ohms in the night, and even connecting a 9 V DC battery gave a satisfactory click everytime. However, the left tweeter was not showing any continuity, and neither was it clicking on connecting the battery.
In order to make sure that the issue with the PMC's was only with the tweeters now. I rigged speaker cable wire from the left PMC tweeter connecting links ( these links were feeding the PMC tweeter, before i removed the tweeter ) to the high frequency inputs on the concept 40's ( This was safe as concept 40's cross over is 2.4K , and PMC's is 3.4K ). Now with the brass bar of the PMC's fully engaged with all drivers, I fed a full signal to the PMC's. And for the first time , I got a full sound output. The mids and lows coming from the PMC, and high frequency from the concept 40's. So, my hunt for new tweeters started. Though PMC claim that a special tweeter was made by Seas, after reading the specs of various of their 27mm sonolex dome tweeters, I felt that the closest a dome tweeter could come to the one used in the Twenty 26's was the 'SEAS Prestige 27TFFC (H0881) Textile Dome Tweeter . Though I could'nt locate any SEAS dealers in India, I managed to find alternate tweeters of similar specs from 'Peerless' and 'Dayton audio'. And ordered a pair each.
And as I was feeling restless, I started looking online for speaker repairers in my locality, and to my good fortune, I found one. He checked the tweeter, and confirmed that the voice coil had melted. He rewinded the voice coil again, and compared the impedence of same with the right tweeter. Both were now bang on 5.5 ohms in the afternoon. He even carried out the battery test on the left tweeter, and it clicked into place. My joy knew no bounds. I raced home and plonked the tweeters back into the cabinets and restored the tweeter connections back. Now I offered my prayers to the powers that may be, and nervously clicked 'play'. Finally it all sounded like it was coming out of some decent speakers.
The PMC's had more detail, punch and better bass than the concept 40's, but the concept 40's still had the better clarity. And the concept 40's also were slightly forward with vocals, which i liked. Changing to the PMC's shifted the voice further back in the music. Now considering that both the left and right speakers were sounding exactly alike driver to driver, I was still wondering why it was sounding muddy in comparison with the concept 40's. Muddy with a slight background hiss. Suspected that the PMC's transperency was showing up my poor quality tracks.
Thus, bought my first HDtracks downloads today. Bought some DSD 2.6 audiophile test tracks and 24/192 tracks of Weeknd & daft punk RAM. Once loaded on my NAS, they sounded wonderful on the PMC's. For the first time since unpacking them, I felt joy at listening to the PMC's. The pitch black backgrounds i was used to, was back now. Instruments sounded very different from the concept 40's, I still have to get used to this different presentation. The bass has depth and variation. There is better seperation that i can sense between instruments. And the best part is that in my small room, the PMC's dont boom at all, unlike the rear ported Concept 40's. So, finally I have managed to recover the PMC's from the brink of my balcony. Iam still waiting for the dealer to give me a qoute for new pairs of mid dome bass and tweeters. If the price is not exorbitant, will buy these for peace of mind.
Total damages in the salvage were 5 pounds for multimeter & allenkey set + 5 pounds for re-winding the voice coil. 10 pounds all in all saved my speakers. And am I glad :)
 
Your patience shows no bounds newlash....I would have been furious at not only one issue but two serious deficiencies in the speakers....I'm happy though that you've taken a step back and looked at the situation more logically...now your reaping the rewards of a fine pair of pmc speakers....I would also get the new tweeter and driver though for peace of mind that you are getting the speakers performing to their max potential.The dealer though,should be footing the bill for the parts and I hope you push him on the issue.
 

insider9

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It must've been so stressful. I feel for you. The worse kind of feeling when things go wrong. I reckon you won't trust anyone to test anything for you from now on. And definitely do not buy from that dealer again.

What happened to you is probably why many are wary of buying second hand.

For those who are unsure how to test the tweeters. The easiest way is to stand close to speakers and without touching the tweeter put your hand against it. You should hear a difference in the sound if the tweeters are working when moving your hand in and out of the way.

When I collected my speakers I actually took UMIK with me and did REW measurements to make sure there's no unwanted distortion or huge wholes in frequency range. Either would indicate issues with drive units. Literally listened to two tracks, packed the speakers and went. The guy was both shocked and impressed with how thorough I was :)
 
That's enough to put anybody off buying secondhand. As you imply, these faults surely were present at the point of sale, so at the considerable price I recall you paid they should be setting things right.

Well done for your patience and I hope you can relax and enjoy then from now on.
 

Pedro

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I hope you enjoy your system!

Regarding 2nd hand goods I don't know how it is in India, but under European Law those have at least 1 year warranty, if sold by a professional (Directive 1999/44/EC).
 

jjbomber

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newlash09 said:
Hi all :) . Since the dome had a gaurd, I kept the vacumm hose on top of the gaurd, and gently closed the surrounding area with a cloth in stages to adjust the suction pressure being exerted on the dome. Bingo, the dome was out in no time, and after a few more suctions from different sides / angles, the dome was perfectly round again.

With headphones you can put your mouth over the dome and suck them back in to shape.
 

Pedro2

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Interesting reading and admire your perseverance! I once accidentally poked the woofer in my ATCs causing a dent. Also used my friend Google and applied the vacuum solution. Hope you get sorted with replacement units (if you need them).
 

Native_bon

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Bravo, you got the foresight of an astronaut. Very well done. The first problem wouldn't kill my spirit but the second?.. That's some doing.

As per your speakers it's good when you got no bass boom. I don't think I can do without transmission line speakers ever again.
 

mond

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I only ever owned PMC speakers once, and quickly sold them on again. They were the dinky DB1i that most people rave about. I loved the bass but the midrange was nowhere near clear enough for me and the overall sound a bit dark. I bought some Audio Note ANK instead with the proceeds, not as much bass but more detail and clarity. That put me off PMC speakers for a while but I would like to hear some others to see how they compare......
 

Blacksabbath25

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Wow ... sorry to hear that !

i would of been very disappointed if I had spent that kind of money you had spent on your PMCs to find they were damaged and somethings not working on them I am not sure I would have had the same patience’s as you so well done for sticking with it .

personally if it was me I would of sent them back because it’s unexpectable to reserve them in the condition you got them in but as long as the dealer is going to send you new bits and you still have a guarantee then it’s not so bad .

But you do have to learn a lesson here my friend ...Demo your self before buying anything that way you no it works , you no the condition of the product and you walk out the door happy knowing you have personally made the right choices with your hard earned money . *smile*

But on a more positive note no bun intended I am pleased your got them sorted out and your enjoying them .
 

mond

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Guess the bass must be pretty amazing from those (looking at some pictures on line) and knowing what the transimmion line speakers can sound like?
 

CnoEvil

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Good Man....that's proper Audiophile tinkering, with the use of a Multimeter, a Torch, a Battery, a set of Allen Keys and a Vacuum Cleaner. *good*
 

ellisdj

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gallery-uktv-art-attaack-neil-buchanan-4.jpg


Straight out of
 

Native_bon

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mond said:
Guess the bass must be pretty amazing from those (looking at some pictures on line) and knowing what the transimmion line speakers can sound like?
I think in terms of bass, Transmission line speakers are the perfect balance between sealed & ported speakers. IPL Acoustics are PMC speakers with more meat on the bone. *smile*
 

newlash09

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Thanks all....
@ Mark rose smith - Thanks for your kind words. I didnt have any options but to chase it to some conclusion. Could have gone either ways. But luck favoured me this time I guess. Iam still waiting for a qoute from the dealer. I know deep inside that despite the qouted cost being on the expensive side, I will have to shell out the same for that mental assurance as you rightly pointed out.

@ Insider 9 - Thanks for suggesting the use of the Umik mike to check speakers. Did'nt realize that was possible. Will use it, if there ever is a second time for me :)

@ nopiano - Thanks. Iam still slugging it out with the dealer regarding settling the price. Though at this point, looks like I will be footing the bill.

@ Pedro - Thanks. Unfortunately the 'used sale commerce' is still in its nacent stage in India. We dont have any consumer protections worth it as of now. Sad but true..

@ JJbomber - Thanks. I have a large dented woofer cone in another speaker of mine. Will give it a shot, though after my recet triumph, the vaccum seems to make it easy. Especially if the tweeters are of metal, as they will need more suction pressure.

@ Pedro 2 - Thanks a lot. As they say, desperation is the mother of persuassion :)

@ Native Bon - Thanks for your kind words. The bass from these PMC's is very nice indeed. It can get much louder than the concept 40's and absolutely no boom. But i can still feel that there is a lot of room interaction going on, in my small room. This is at times clouding the mid range, and leading to loss of clarity. Will be shifting to a new place in 2 months, where I will have a 11 x 23 ft room, so hoping things will get better there. Or else will have to resort to mini-dsp.

@ mond - I really dont know what is called a dark sound. But they certainly back-in the vocals a bit. This could actually be normal, with the concept 40's being forward. And besides the backing of vocals, I think they also have a slight box sound to them due to that transmission line tunnel. Now it could be that Iam sitting only 6 feet from the speakers. Increasing my listening distance could mitigate this I guess.

@ Blacksabbath 25 - Thanks :) . I now realize that I got away very lucky. Could have ended very bad. Thanks for your wishes. I dont think I will consider going second hand again in the near future . But then again, we all know that this experience is like a bad hangover. Everything gets forgotten with time, and the enthusiasm of a good deal :)

@ Cnoevil & Ellisdj - Thanks for the wishes :)

Iam finally getting ready to sell the Qaoustics concept 40' and the bluesound powernode. I love those concept 40's, would have loved to build a second system around them. But I also need to make up some funds for the new drivers for the PMC's. And as blacksabbath 25, advised in the past, its better to put everything into one single awesome system. So have to bid them goodbye with a heavy heart.

In my comparison between the Qacoustics and PMC, the concept 40's came really close to the PMC's with my level of electronics. Now i realize that to make these PMC's work well, I have to upgrade the whole chain. Starting with a better source first. Where as the Qacoustics concept 40 already sing lovely at this level. Thanks all for reading this very long post...should probably have posted it closer to the weekend :)
 
I think you need to live with what you have for a while before changing more things. Though the PMC will be a bit more revealing than the QA, I don't completely buy the idea you need to upgrade everything else. I'd be worried you hadn't got it all set up ideally if you aren't delighted. It may take a while to recover from the upset over the faulty drivers too - it can dent your confidence and well as your domes!!

And frankly, QA are one of those that can benefit from better gear too, as many modest speakers can.
 

newlash09

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Iam off the box swapping excercise for now. Will shift to my new place just in time for christmas. My listening room will be bigger then at 11x23 ft. Will see how this improves things from my present 11x11 ft setup. Definitely will not upgrade anything in a hurry. But iam honestly bothered with the lack of quality tracks in my library. And rather than spending a fortunate in downloads from HDtracks, was wondering if any of the upsampling streamers like CA Azur 851 or Sony HAPZ1ES will improve my low bit rate mp3's. Thanks
 

insider9

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newlash09 said:
And rather than spending a fortunate in downloads from HDtracks, was wondering if any of the upsampling streamers like CA Azur 851 or Sony HAPZ1ES will improve my low bit rate mp3's. Thanks

Unlikely. What you will be missing can not be added. mp3's will sound flatter and less dynamic on a decent system. On some tracks it's obvious on some you might need to listen attentively. I would however look at this link as it may be a solution to your problems.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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Well done with getting the pmc’s sorted. I think the issue you will have with them, is that they demand really good amplification to give of their best and I’d expect you to see that if you took them along to a bake off and see what they can do. Unfortunately I don’t think you are going to be getting anywhere near their best. The pmc twenty range are a totally different kettle of fish with say tri amped power set ups of really good quality amps.
 

insider9

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
Well done with getting the pmc’s sorted. I think the issue you will have with them, is that they demand really good amplification to give of their best and I’d expect you to see that if you took them along to a bake off and see what they can do. Unfortunately I don’t think you are going to be getting anywhere near their best. The pmc twenty range are a totally different kettle of fish with say tri amped power set ups of really good quality amps.
I take it you have a first hand experience with Parasound Halo running PMC Twenty 26?
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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With utmost respect, I know from first hand experience that you don’t get anything like the best out of pmc twenty series speakers using £2-£3k in amps against these £7k speakers. That’s always been the case with pmc. They require very good amplification to give of their best.
 

Blacksabbath25

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Well I think newlash09 Parasound amplifier has a good spec so it should easily drive PMCs ok and PMCs are easy to drive anyway and just because the PMCs cost £7500 doesn’t mean anything cost don’t always come into it when buying a amplifier there’s no laws to say your got to spend £8000 on a amplifier because your spent £7500 on PMCs .

i agree you need a good amplifier if you want the most out of your speakers but I do think the Parasound will do the job nicely

get to know your speakers newlash09 and your amplifier then after 6 months to 12 months if there is something missing or you want to push the PMCs quality more then look at a different amplifier as you will find different amplifiers will give different results in how your speakers will sound but you need that time to get to no your hifi first before spending more money .
 

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