Yet another poll from a Debut Carbon DC owner

[hybridauth_Twitter_43371788]

Have a great day everyone,

My girlfriend made me a gift which is a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC, and I'm very happy for that. Now it is time to pair it up with nice speakers and a good amplifier. And here I am lost.

Let me write briefly which genres I do listen usually; I love 70s-80s rock, especially on the turntable. I can't wait to listen all those LPs I've collected. First stamp UK editions of Pink Floyd, Dire Straits etc.

My budget; is max €1000. But it does not mean that I want to spend this money.

After my research I came up with Marantz PM6006 and Q Acoustics 3020. I did not think if they could work nicely together. I am very new in this world therefore I am open for any suggestion/lesson that I might get from What Hi-Fi family.

I know PM6006 is an integrated amp, and I guess maybe it is better to buy a pre-amp separately for the ultimate sound quality. In that case I am open for suggestions on that matter as well.

Regarding to the speakers; I found a very nice pair of B&W 601 S3, for a reasonable price. But couldn't be sure if it is a good idea to buy used speakers from long time ago, instead of the QAcoustics 3020. (any other suggestion welcome, even old ones)

Looking forward for ideas. Thanks!

 

[plastic penguin]

A few vital questions:

- What amp and speakers do you currently own?

- What size room do you have?

- Do you play music loud or quiet?

- Room furnishings: Do you have hard floors or carpets/curtains?

You can get better value from s/hand equipment so search local dealers for ex-dem, s/hand or end of line stuff. With a dealer, also, you'll get a warranty and/or a Returns policy, assuming you can't dem before buying.

 

[gasolin]

I feel the 3020 have a to thin and bright sound try mission lx-2

 

[iceman16]

It could be more slightly over budget but I suggest s/hand or ex demo Arcam A29 and Focal aria 906.

 

[rainsoothe]

It could be more slightly over budget but I suggest s/hand or ex demo Arcam A29 and Focal aria 906.

+1. Even an ex-dem or SH Arcam A19 would blow the Marantz away, and they should be around 400 pounds, since when they were phased out, they cost like 450 new. The Focals can also be found for 500-ish ex-dem, and again, completely different league from the Q Acoustics. For amps, it's usually safe to go SH, for speakers it's sometimes a gamble, but if seller has good reviews and an old account, it's unlikely you'll get a bad deal - but better to get from dealers.

Preferably, you can also budget for stands for the speakers.

I, for one, don't particularly like Marantz + Q Acoustics, nor with those B&W.

Another suggestion, besides Arcam, would be the new Rega Brio R. I haven't heard it, but should be very good indeed, and Rega have good phono-stages (for your TT). With the Rega, I'd look at either Focal Aria 906, or Dynaudio Emit M10 or, if you have the budget and space in your room, M20.

Whatever you do, try to audition before buying (in your own home if possible). This includes your initial options, you might think it's enough. And take your time doing it, and beware of stuff that sounds exciting, it might be tiresome after a while, especially in an untreated room (which you most likely have, and usually the dealer rooms have some sort of treatment).

 

[hybridauth_Twitter_43371788]

A few vital questions:

- What amp and speakers do you currently own?

- What size room do you have?

- Do you play music loud or quiet?

- Room furnishings: Do you have hard floors or carpets/curtains?

You can get better value from s/hand equipment so search local dealers for ex-dem, s/hand or end of line stuff. With a dealer, also, you'll get a warranty and/or a Returns policy, assuming you can't dem before buying.

Amazing questions. I currently do not own any amp or speakers. I am very interested in music and currently own a Bose system which was given to me by a friend of mine who doesn't want to use it anymore; but I am very new for turntables and actually the turntable (P-J Debut Carbon DC) that I received as a gift is the reason of my research.

The room I have is more or less like 45metersquares. It is a rectangle but connected to the corridor therefore it is not a perfect close rectangle.

I play music usually not too loud. But sometimes, once in a while I play loud too. Like once in a month.

I have hard floors, and no carpets no curtains.

Here in Milan, Italy, there is a very well known dealer called Buscemi but their prices are way too higher than the internet prices and they do not distribute some brands including such as q acoustics. But they do have B&W, DALI or Monitor Audio.

I am open for suggestions for websites where I can find trustable second hand speakers and amps. But before I can start that research, I need to know what I'll search for..

 

[hybridauth_Twitter_43371788]

It could be more slightly over budget but I suggest s/hand or ex demo Arcam A29 and Focal aria 906.

+1. Even an ex-dem or SH Arcam A19 would blow the Marantz away, and they should be around 400 pounds, since when they were phased out, they cost like 450 new. The Focals can also be found for 500-ish ex-dem, and again, completely different league from the Q Acoustics. For amps, it's usually safe to go SH, for speakers it's sometimes a gamble, but if seller has good reviews and an old account, it's unlikely you'll get a bad deal - but better to get from dealers.

Preferably, you can also budget for stands for the speakers.

I, for one, don't particularly like Marantz + Q Acoustics, nor with those B&W.

Another suggestion, besides Arcam, would be the new Rega Brio R. I haven't heard it, but should be very good indeed, and Rega have good phono-stages (for your TT). With the Rega, I'd look at either Focal Aria 906, or Dynaudio Emit M10 or, if you have the budget and space in your room, M20.

Whatever you do, try to audition before buying (in your own home if possible). This includes your initial options, you might think it's enough. And take your time doing it, and beware of stuff that sounds exciting, it might be tiresome after a while, especially in an untreated room (which you most likely have, and usually the dealer rooms have some sort of treatment).

I hope the dealer here has the ones you suggested me. Unfortunately there is no chance that I can try them at home. I don't know if they say yes for that. I don't think so. I don't even know what to look for in an amp. The speakers are a bit easier to understand for me since I hear it coming and it is much easier to spot a very bad speaker. But when it comes to amps (the ones which u can find at showrooms easily) it gets harder for me to spot the difference. Unless there is a huge price difference. I think I need to learn some key questions to ask or search for when deciding for an amp. Like my room type, the music that I'll listen, the purpose I have etc.. If coincidencally I mention one of the useful questions; my room is around 45m2, untreated, not like a perfect rectangle, but kinda. No carpets. Hard floor. I do listen classic rock with lots of synthesizer in it (like some pink floyd songs) including soft electronic music (like l'imperatrice).

 

[rainsoothe]

That's a very big room, and I would go for floorstanders with good sensitivity. Do you have a link for your hi-fi dealer? What brands do they stock? What country are you in?

 

[newlash09]

If you can post a link to your available dealers website, we can have a peek at what is available and then recommend.

Besides, are there any online hifi retailers in Italy you can buy from.

 

[hybridauth_Twitter_43371788]

http://www.pieffeaudiovideo.com/ : this is one shop which is like 45 mins from where i live

http://www.buscemihifi.it/ and this is the one next to my apartment. it is the biggest hi-fi shop in milan.

I read a lot about Arcam A19 and it convinced me a lot. But I do have a question which might sound a bit strange to you, I did not really understand if I have to buy a phono stage as well with the Arcam A19, or is it going to be all-in just like marantz pm8005? I remember a friend of mine when he suggested me an amp of Cambridge and it was great bcs of its price but then I realized I had to buy a pre amp as well. That's my first question: Does Arcam A19 has the preamp inside or should I buy an additional one?

Second: The arcam a19 I found here is 600€. Never opened. I don't know if it is expensive or not. If I want to spend a lil bit less, which amp would you suggest me? So that I can do a comparison.

Speakers!

I am still super ignorant regarding to the speakers, I made a small list after a small research and came up with;
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KEF LS50

Tannoy v4

Focal Chorus 714 V

Monitor Audio RX2

Focal Aria Series - 906

KEF R100

PMC Twenty 22

I saw that Arcam A19 needs careful pairing so I thought maybe KEFs would go great together. But then I saw somebody saying that KEF and Arcam had some kinda partnership and that's why WhatHiFi and many others are always recommending the duo together. I don't know if that is true but it makes me suspicious.

My ears are sensitive when it comes to details and when it comes to songs that I have listened more than 1000 times. What I want to feel is, a deep bass, each instrument independently, speakers which will not disturb me after listening to them for 5 hours, speakers which can go perfect with classic rock with lots of synth in it and at the same time which perform well with deep house music.

 

[rainsoothe]

Hi. 600 euro for an unopened Arcam A19 is pretty good imo. I mean when you find them SH, they are 450-500 pounds, which is almost 600 euro (but it was discontinued, so it went for cheaper, even new). And yes, it does have a phono stage. If it's from a dealership, maybe you can also audition some speakers along with it, and you can get a discount. If you can audition it, even better - it's my favourite amp in that price range. I think it was about 800-850 euro new (700 pounds).

Your budget is rather tricky for a room that size, and it will be pretty hard to fill with sound if you don't go for second hand stuff. Others on this forum are well versed when it comes to vintage gear, but if you're new and don't exactly know what you're looking for and don't want the risk of having to service the stuff, you might be better off buying new and with warranty.

I did have the A19 before I returned to Naim, with Focal Aria 906, and it delivered a very big soundstage, and never fatiguing, with good detail, but smooth. I listen to the same type of music you do.

All being said, if you have a store so close to you, you should talk to your dealer, tell him your needs, and maybe he'll suggest something to suit you and which you can audition. I noticed the store near you stocks Naim - maybe someone brought an older Naim integrated for a trade-in, and you can get one at a reduced price. Try it. If not, I would go for the Arcam, and then take it with you to the dealership and audition some speakers.

Arcam goes pretty well with Focal (even Chorus range, not only Aria) and Monitor Audio - even B&W.

 

[rainsoothe]

Also, I like Arcam A19 better than the Cambridge Audio CXA60 - the only advantage of the CA is the DAC. The A19 has a fuller, more authoritative sound to it.

PMC Twenty 22 are good speakers (I'm not a fan, they sound too "precise" for me), but how are they on the list? They are very expensive, and require much better amplification. You will also need to budget for stands (if you go for standmounnters), interconnect and speaker cable.

 

[hybridauth_Twitter_43371788]

Thank you very much for answers, seeing that we share the same music taste and your experience with Arcam A19 so let me ask you directly. When you said buy Naim or otherwise go with Arcam, it confused me. Can you do me a top 3 list after this dialogue, which amps should I go for? And according to the amp, which speakers should I go and test them with? We're very close to the conclusion.

 

[hybridauth_Twitter_43371788]

Some user reviews on Arcam A19:

"its is not as exciting as the Naim or Regas"

"Sound is lifeless, sterile, without color and passion. Treble and mid are ok, but BASS is disaster (tiny, no meat and punch, without life). This is not all round amp (for every type of music) and it is good "only" for classical and jazz music."

" Not as "3D" and open as I'd like to hear but ok."

"Expected much more acording to the reviews and awards...."

So these convice me to re-think. Maybe I should go with a Naim.

 

[insider9]

Chances are you may not like Naim. I used Naim but ultimately it was the wrong amp for my speakers. You may find Naim tiring on long listening sessions.

It really vital that you try yourself. Otherwise you will keep changing gear based on forum suggestions forever.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

The best advice cemil is that different amps work with different speakers differently, because it’s always about the combination so it’s not possible to say ‘Cyrus is bright’ as appears to be a theme on here, or ‘you may find naim tiring on long listening sessions’. A misnomer.

the best thing to do is read the reviews, check what others are saying based on those, what is well revered, which is value based on reviews, check what dealers sell a lot of (which is a good idea of what’s often good) and then draw a shortlist and go out and listen.

People can come to conclusions naim is this or arcam is that sound, and i have relative to my own comparisons of amps and speakers, but given the extent of the combination, nobody can definitively say what the overall combo does, unless they own it or have heard it. So often it’s best to make your judgements, not least you are buying.

 

[insider9]

The best advice cemil is that different amps work with different speakers differently, because it’s always about the combination so it’s not possible to say ‘Cyrus is bright’ as appears to be a theme on here, or ‘you may find naim tiring on long listening sessions’. A misnomer. 

the best thing to do is read the reviews, check what others are saying based on those, what is well revered, which is value based on reviews, check what dealers sell a lot of (which is a good idea of what’s often good) and then draw a shortlist and go out and listen. 

People can come to conclusions naim is this or arcam is that sound, and i have relative to my own comparisons of amps and speakers, but given the extent of the combination, nobody can definitively say what the overall combo does, unless they own it or have heard it. So often it’s best to make your judgements, not least you are buying. 

How many Arcam or Naim amps have you had in the past?

 

[insider9]

The best advice cemil is that different amps work with different speakers differently, because it’s always about the combination so it’s not possible to say ‘Cyrus is bright’ as appears to be a theme on here, or ‘you may find naim tiring on long listening sessions’. A misnomer. 

Do you have your own definition of the word misnomer too? Or is it the work "may" that you don't understand?

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

To bring it back onto the thread this is quite good https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/blog/2017/08/14/beginners-guide-matching-speakers-amplifiers/

The point I’m making is that insider thinks naim may or is tiring, and I found that naim is somewhat flat and undynamic at budget levels comparative to my electronics but using common speakers I own, but others will talk differently and some say naim is engaging. You’ll find others who have different opinions too. But these opinions are based on taste, and system synergy too, so it’s often difficult, with a whole range of these views, to narrow things down. The only narrowing down you can really do is therfore to go out and have a listen.

Ps because it’s often difficult to narrow down what type of sound someone likes in descriptive terms, without hearing it yourself, there is often a need to take a view. Is someone’s bright, someone’s norm or another’s detail, someone’s lack of detail etc etc

 

[BigH]

"Sound is lifeless, sterile, without color and passion"

I would tend to agree with that description. Naim is a bit love or hate (like marmite) sort of brand. I prefer Creek myself. Marantz can be a bit too polite and nice. You really need to hear them to see if they suit your taste. Roksan Kandy is also worth trying that has quite a bit of power. For rock music in a large room I think the Roksan could be a good choice.

 

[hybridauth_Twitter_43371788]

Thanks to all of you who spent some time to contribute to my research.

I want to make one thing clear; I am also in favor of listening to speakers and amps to understand which one is great for me. But I cannot do that since nobody sells Arcam in Milan, and all those who sell don't let you try it because they do trading. When it comes to Naim, I can go and try some models but why am I going to do that if I won't be able to compare it with Arcam? Same for Roksan.

I decided to buy amp first and then I'll decide for the speakers.

I decided to write in here, and ask people's opinion because of the reasons stated above. So now, I'd like to say I trust all of the opinions stated here in this forum, especially if they are backed with good reasoning. I appreciate a lot all your recommendations.

 

[rainsoothe]

"Sound is lifeless, sterile, without color and passion"

I would tend to agree with that description. Naim is a bit love or hate (like marmite) sort of brand. I prefer Creek myself. Marantz can be a bit too polite and nice. You really need to hear them to see if they suit your taste. Roksan Kandy is also worth trying that has quite a bit of power. For rock music in a large room I think the Roksan could be a good choice.

I'm quoting this, but every reply is valid in it's own way. And yes, a lot of brands are "love it or hate it" - I, for one, can't get along with Rega amps (heard the older Brio R and Osiris, I got nothing from them), Yamaha or Devialet (or any class D I heard so far, for that matter). I also don't like Creek's Evo 50, but like their previous Evolution 2. That's why it's so important to audition for yourself. And seeing you live right next to a Naim dealer, you should definately audition them. For me, a random audition was what started me on Naim.

The second reason I'm quiting this particular reply is that Roksan is a very good suggestion, if you can get along with the looks of a Kandy K2 (I don't know if those have phono-stage, but neither does Naim).

I am also an "amp first" kind of guy. I didn't find the A19 grey at all, but good with rhythm and a "large" sound. But that was MY ears and, just as important, MY system - it was being fed by Naim Dac V1 (which was like twice the price, so go figure), also speakers and cable that were good partners for it - I, for instance, would not use KEF R series or Wharfedale Reva with Arcam.

As for Naim, I get how some people find it fatiguing, but I don't think it's because it's bright, necessarily. But SOME of their amps can sound too relentless sometimes. Like when a song is relaxed, but the Naim sort of "pushes" the music towards you anyway even if that particular song doesn't ask for it. Again, this is, imo, valid for only SOME of their stuff - the Unitiqute 2, for instance, was never part of this category, nor is their Nap100 power amp, but I found Supernait 2 guilty of that. I mean even among Naim fans, there's people who argue for or against some of their gear. That's again why it's so important to audition. Buying without auditioning is only worth it if it's SH, as you can recover your loss, if you have the time and budget for that. Or if it's from an internet seller and can get a full refund, but you lose postage money - besides the hassle involved.

Also, system synergy is very important, and Naim is very sensitive to speaker cables (they need to be within certain parameters to perform well), more than most brands.

Again, I think Roksan Kandy K2 is a great suggestion, and I just checked, it has a phono pre. It's a pretty neutral amp imo, not fatiguing, and with good power. It will suit a lot of speakers, even power hungry ones like ATC SCM11 or 19 or, Wharfedale Jade 3, which I think would be a great fit for you and your room (amazing speakers, just need space, which you have, and power).

For the record, I heard the Kandy K2 with Sonus Faber Toy Towers and they sounded very good together.

But you gotta listen to Naim at least once, you owe it to yourself

 

[newlash09]

No harm auditioning the Naim and buying it if you like it. Never mind not getting to audition others. We always want to buy the absolute best for our money. But if auditioning opportunities are not available. Not much you can do there. Ask the Naim gentleman to setup kit at your price bracket + 500 euros above and below. So you will probably get atleast 2 different combinations of amp and speakers to choose from.

 

[newlash09]

I have a pair of qacoustics concept 40's that I absolutely love. They are all rounders and a untiring all day listen. The qacoustics concept 20's should be no different. They are supposed to pair excellently with Naim kit. There is one forum memeber here with concept 40's + Naim nait 5si that he is very happy with.

So try to see if you can audition this combination

 

[insider9]

The point I’m making is that insider thinks naim may or is tiring

Not what I said. What are you like?