Yamaha - 5 star products, 0 star delivery

[Teeza]

It seems Yamaha were completely unprepared for the demand for many of its products following their rave reviews by What HiFi. I started the year trying to audition a 763 and an 863 but most (local) dealers had sold right out - even their demo stock. Delivery dates for new stock were vague and kept going backwards (one dealer currently quoting June!). Eventually I contacted Yamaha to try to clarify the position and was simply told to contact the dealers. At which point I lost the will to argue. Dealers are becoming increasingly frustrated and are now trying to sell me Onkyo and Denon products instead.

Perhaps you should warn manufacturers that you are about to give them a 5 star rating as it might damage their reputation.

 

[Andrew Everard]

I think warning manufacturers in advance would go against everything we've done on the magazine for 30+ years. After all, then you'd have retailers saying - 'buy this - it's going to get five stars next month' and that would look deeply fishy.

But I fully understand your frustration: seems Yamaha has got itself severely wrongfooted on this one. But even if the company had known in advance about the five-star review and subsequent Award, lead times on products such as this make an instant response in terms of extra supplies pretty much impossible.

It's really down to manufacturers and retailers getting behind a product they really believe is good before the reviews are published, rather than waiting for the reviews and then trying to order supplies...

 

[Clare Newsome]

We've had several conversations with Yamaha about this post-Awards. Seems the root of the problem was the previous team at Yamaha UK, pre the takeover by Yamaha Music last year, ordering insufficient stock (well, insufficient once they won the Awards in a market where receiver sales are booming), and it's been a case of catch-up ever since.

That doesn't help you or the dealers, of course. I'll ask again for an official statement, if anyone at Yamaha's made it in through the snow....

 

[Anonymous]

A frustrating situation for all: you (and all potential buyers), the dealers and of course Yamaha who are missing out on business.

However like most manufacturers they have to work along production plans 6 to 12 months ahead of the products hitting the shops. So if they decided to take a limited risk with their products during this dour economic climate and only make "that many" receivers as stock levels run low factories will need another couple of months to produce more goods (notwithstanding the materials purchasing process, delays, price movements, currency ups or downs, etc.).

Have you tried Sevenoaks? My local one (north london) had one 763 at least last time I walked in.

 

[Anonymous]

I just bought a DSP-Z7 on the 22nd of Jan. I got told last friday by my retailer there is a lead time of 3 weeks for delivery as Yamaha does not have any supply anywhere. Yamaha also told my retailer that they could only deliver them 4 units, when in fact my retailer has got 7 customers on back order (I am luck as I am number 2 on the waiting list).

I am sure that Yamaha will get better with their supply chain in the future, but right now, they are standing in the land of lost opportunities.

 

[Anonymous]

You're absolutely about these receivers being hard to track down but I don't think the issue has much to do with demand exceeding supply. I went on a pre-Xmas hunt for the 863SE to audition and hopefully buy but gave up after about a week of hoofing around.

Anyhow, I paid a visit to Tottenham Court Rd during my SE huntathon and was told by two salesmen on Tottenham Court Road (from different shops) that Yamaha had only slashed their prices last autumn to score What HiFi awards, mainly because Onkyo and Denon had stuffed them so royally over the last couple of years saleswise.

What's more one of the guys assured that Yamaha were selling the 863SE at a loss as a result of the cuts and had always planned to sell just a few after they scored the award before replacing it quick smart with a newer, more expensive model. That was why there was so little stock around.

Makes sense if you think about it - why would you want to sell a loss-making product for any longer than they absolutely had to?

How about this for an idea. In future any manufacturer who wins a What Hi-Fi award has to be able to supply winning products direct via their own website for a set time after the awards are made public at the advertised price. That way if you couldn't find it in dealers you get it from them... and if they couldn't supply it they'd lose their award. Would probably have to buy the kit at the full whack price but at least you'd be able to get it.

 

[Clare Newsome]

There are already rules about pricing and availability for a set time after the Awards - all of which were honoured for 2008.

But products go out of stock and prices change eventually - in a normal year, let alone extraordinary times. It's not just Yamaha - look at the Panasonic Blu-ray player Product of the Year: already discontinued despite being launched on October 1st!

 

[Anonymous]

Oh right, what are the pricing and availability rules then?

Think you make a good point about the fact that products go out of stock and change prices - that's inevitable.But then that's also the problem.

My point, however, is that consumers should have a better means of obtaining a product at a price quoted the What Hifi than just having to trawl through all the shops and be at the mercy of the market (especially if a manufacturer never really intended to supply that many of an award-winner in the first place).

Maybe you guys should do that job... or is that already in the What Hifi gameplan for the future?

 

[Andy Clough]

I suspect that this tightening stock situation will become more commonplace in the months ahead, as many manufacturers (not just Yamaha) respond to the recession and keep stocks very tight - they'll be trying hard not to have too much product lying around unsold.

But I appreciate this is very frustrating for the consumer.

 

[Andrew Everard]

randomdelusion:You're absolutely about these receivers being hard to track down but I don't think the issue has much to do with demand exceeding supply.
Lots of people want to buy them, and there aren't enough to go around. Now I only did Economics to A-Level, but that sounds rather like 'demand exceeding supply' to me...

randomdelusion:Anyhow, I paid a visit to Tottenham Court Rd during my SE
huntathon and was told by two salesmen on Tottenham Court Road (from
different shops) that Yamaha had only slashed their prices last autumn
to score What HiFi awards, mainly because Onkyo and Denon had stuffed
them so royally over the last couple of years saleswise.

And these guys were trying to sell you what, exactly? Isn't it funny how some rather poor sales staff always have a good story why they don't have something in stock, or why what they do have in stock isn't what you've come in asking for.

randomdelusion:What's
more one of the guys assured that Yamaha were selling the 863SE at a
loss as a result of the cuts and had always planned to sell just a few
after they scored the award before replacing it quick smart with a
newer, more expensive model. That was why there was so little stock
around.

Makes sense if you think about it - why would you want
to sell a loss-making product for any longer than they absolutely had
to?

If what he said was true it would I guess make sense in some kind of random delusional way, but why would any manufacturer win an Award then rapidly discontinue the product, when they could have a year of sales out of that Award on that product?

 

[Clare Newsome]

The Awards products have to be widely available at the same price we tested at (or less) for at least six weeks after the Awards issue comes out (that was mid-October in 2008's case).

That means a manufacturer should have at least six weeks of UK stock from the Awards date for a product to be eligible for the Awards. Also stops manufacturers putting their prices up in the period immediately following an Award.

However, as Andrew points out, no manufacturer knows it's going to win an Award (they find out at our Awards ceremony, a couple of weeks before the issue comes out, giving them a little time to ramp up production/distribution if needed), or indeed the full scale of the demand that's going to be caused by winning one.

 

[Andrew Everard]

randomdelusion:(especially if a manufacturer never really intended to supply that many of an award-winner in the first place).

There you go with that accusation based on pure hearsay again.

randomdelusion:Maybe you guys should do that job... or is that already in the What Hifi gameplan for the future?

I really do think you are asking a bit too much of a magazine, unless you'd like us to set up our own shop.

(That was a joke, by the way...)

 

[Anonymous]

I ordered an RX-V1900 on 22nd Dec...that's 6 weeks ago today, and I'm still waiting. And the best ETA I have is 3-5 weeks yet, but nothing confirmed.

Assuming the worst, that's eleven weeks from point of order. What exactly takes them that length of time to manufacture?. I work in IT and even the largest, slowest vendors can put together incredibly complex, expensive, almost bespoke systems and ship them from the Far East in less than a month. Why can't Yamaha?

My order is with a company claiming to be a "Pre-Eminent" Yamaha Dealer, but they are trying to get me to change my order to a "much higher specified" (their description) Onkyo SR-876. I am sorely tempted, but the V1900 is the unit I want. If/when I finally get it, I fear it will be the last Yamaha purchase I make.

 

[Anonymous]

Good reply, thanks.

Strikes me, though, that 6 weeks is too little. Like myself I'm sure that many were looking for the What Hifi winners as a possible chrimbo prezzy (for myself in my case). Making sure that award winning kit was available for the test of the calendar year would seem a more sensible and logical rule.

If a manufacturer can't supply kit for that long - for whatever reason - then they should simply put their hands up and not bother to nominate their stuff for awards. Mind you I suppose they're all too hung up on winning your awards to be that honest...

 

[Clare Newsome]

The rules do evolve , so we can look at making it longer. The Awards issue used to come out at the end of October, which meant the six-week rule pretty much took you until Christmas. Now it's earlier, an extension may be in order for 2009

 

[Anonymous]

Blimey... didn't mean to strike any nerves

On the matter of supply and demand what I meant to say was if you didn't plan on supplying many units in the first place then demand would obviously greatly exceed supply, especially if you won an award.

Re the sale guys - erm, well actually they were pretty straight and decent in my opinion. I spent what I considered to be a lot of my precious time looking for an 863SE - the sales guys didn't seem to have any particular axe to grind from where I was sitting and their explanation seemed reasonable.

The way I read it the salesmen were implying that Yamaha wanted to get some big headlines again but not necessarily sell lots of loss making product. That explanation made sense to me (and my poor waery feet!) but hey, if you think differently well thats fine.

 

[Anonymous]

Acciesboy: Assuming the worst, that's eleven weeks from point of order. What exactly takes them that length of time to manufacture?. I work in IT and even the largest, slowest vendors can put together incredibly complex, expensive, almost bespoke systems and ship them from the Far East in less than a month. Why can't Yamaha?

Again, manufacturers work with production plans. Right now they're certainly not busy producing 2008 models when they have the newer 2009 range to ready on the back of CES.

If the Yams AV receivers are hard to find, look at Yamaha UK for not ordering enough of their share of the total available inventory. Although when they did (order their stock) they had no idea their receivers would be the must-have kit for 2008. Too much prudence possibly from their part?

 

[Clare Newsome]

momo72:

If the Yams AV receivers are hard to find, look at Yamaha UK for not ordering enough of their share of the total available inventory. Although when they did (order their stock) they had no idea their receivers would be the must-have kit for 2008. Too much prudence possibly from their part?

Which was my very point earlier in the thread - current Yamaha management took over when 2008 stocks already ordered. Mind you, they did take the decision to cut prices, which was only going to stimulate demand!

 

[Anonymous]

randomdelusion:(especially if a manufacturer never really intended to supply that many of an award-winner in the first place).
There you go with that accusation based on pure hearsay again.

Umm, was actually just relating my thoughts and conclusions, based on what I've been told. Honestly don't wish to offend...

randomdelusion:Maybe you guys should do that job... or is that already in the What Hifi gameplan for the future?

I really do think you are asking a bit too much of a magazine, unless you'd like us to set up our own shop.

(That was a joke, by the way...)

Well actually, yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. You guys work with a retailer at the Bristol hifi show, right? Well, why would it be unfeasible to guarantee availability of prize winners via an online operation at the full price as quoted in the awards issue? Prices usually go down after a product has been around a while so other retailers wouldn't feel threatened by it as long as you stuck to selling kit at say Oct 08 prices.

As I said whathifisales.com (see, I've even given it a name!) would only have kit available during that must-stock that Clare mentioned period after the awards issue. Good for manufacturers, good for what hi-fi, great for readers who wouldn't have to waste hours hunting down kit, no more question marks as to availability!

 

[Anonymous]

No matter when the issue comes out I think you've got to get manufacturers to guarantee good availability of award winners in the run up to chrimbo, at the very least. That's just plain commonsense.

If a manufacturer can't guarantee that then a) they don't put up products for awards and b) if they do win an award and fail to deliver the goods, as required, you can ban them from entering that awards category the year after.

Course if you go with my whathifisales.com idea there won't be an issue (i'd like 1 per cent of all sales commissions for coming up with the idea pleeeze

)

 

[Andrew Everard]

The two main problems - and I can't believe we're having this conversation - are that a) we're not a retailer, and how would you feel if the same people giving a product an Award as the best of the year was then selling it to you? and b) our advertising people really rather depend on retail advertising to keep the magazine afloat, and I can't imagine the consumer electronics community taking anything but a very dim view of us giving Awards to and then retailing products.

 

[Anonymous]

Personally we've found this "stock shortage" problems with a number of different products recently, from prams to TVs. In every case they've been products made and sold by non-UK companies - which is hardly surprising since we have no manufacturing industry in the UK left to speak of.

When ringing around dealers their frustration has been evident but then so has the reason - foreign companies don't want to sell stock in the UK when the pound has lost so much value and they can't whack their prices up immediately to compensate. Think about it: 12 months ago a manufacturer selling a product for a 1000GBP margin was making 1330EUR, but as recently as last week was only making 1050EUR. They'd have to increase their UK price by over 200GBP just to get back to their original level of profitability! It's a similar story with yen and dollars.

So unsurprisingly, manufacturers like Sony, Yamaha, etc. are re-diverting stock to places like the Eurozone, or where a product is lightly customised for the UK are simply making more of the other variants for the other (stronger) economic areas. Hence shortages for us. The irony is that if it continues, UK dealers will go out of business (an AV shop in Glasgow I spoke to was very gloomy about lack of stock) which will weaken our economy further and bash the pound even harder!

 

[Clare Newsome]

randomdelusion:
No matter when the issue comes out I think you've got to get manufacturers to guarantee good availability of award winners in the run up to chrimbo, at the very least. That's just plain commonsense.

If a manufacturer can't guarantee that then a) they don't put up products for awards and b) if they do win an award and fail to deliver the goods, as required, you can ban them from entering that awards category the year after.

Course if you go with my whathifisales.com idea there won't be an issue (i'd like 1 per cent of all sales commissions for coming up with the idea pleeeze

)

Do remember that new products are coming out all the time - we've had Award winners beaten by new products as soon as the following issue's test section before (rare, but it can happen).....

 

[Anonymous]

I ordered a 863 in mid-November, got it early January, slightly longer than the original estimate of 'by the weekend' - I ordered it on a Monday. I was about to cancel and get a Denon instead when it arrived. The dealer was just as hacked off as I was - said Yamaha had become a nightmare recently.

I agree there is a possible element of creating pent-up demand possible. I was interested in a(n expensive) car mid-last year, but the delivery times were long, partly to create the same demand. I bought something else and have since had a few calls from the first make asking if I was still interested. Apparently they have plenty of cars now. I said the same thing each time - you missed your chance, and please don't call back.ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

Clare do you have any idea when yamaha is able to supply the 863 in the uk and at what price?