XLR

[stereoman]

Hello to all,
Why is it rare for some amps / CD players etc. to have XLR inputs / outputs. What real benefits do they bring in comparison to none XLR stuff and why some rather midrange stuff go without them - like very good sounding Denon SACD players - for example. Do they decide they bring no significant sound improvement or is it just a matter of budget ?

 

[nopiano]

Balanced wiring is mainly of studio provenance, to eliminate hum for example. Single-ended, conventional RCA phono plugs do fine for home use, though they make the live contact first, so always keep volume at minimum (or amp off) when connecting.

Comparisons are tricky as XLR can have up to double the level, so matching is difficult. My CD player has a XLR connection I've always used, and never felt the need to compare.

Some have great faith in XLRs; others declare no practical benefit!

 

[stereoman]

Balanced wiring is mainly of studio provenance, to eliminate hum for example. Single-ended, conventional RCA phono plugs do fine for home use, though they make the live contact first, so always keep volume at minimum (or amp off) when connecting.

Comparisons are tricky as XLR can have up to double the level, so matching is difficult. My CD player has a XLR connection I've always used, and never felt the need to compare.

Some have great faith in XLRs; others declare no practical benefit!

Thanks.

 

[CnoEvil]

Just to add to NP's excellent answer...the Amp and Source, both have to be fully balanced in order for it to work. In Hifi, this isn't always the case.

In the case of Electrocompaniet, it sounds better through its balanced connections.

 

[alchemist 1]

Plus one for balanced xlr cables

 

[davedotco]

Firstly XLR connectors are significantly more expensive than their rca/phono counterparts and they take up a lot of space, so you really have to have a good reason to use them. So why?

Firstly, XLRs are superior connectors to rca/phonos, not sonically, that is not proven, but in terms of robustness and the fact that when the connections are made or broken, the earth connection is the first to be made and the last to be broken, so no nasty noises or worse.

Secondly they have three pins, so a superior construction can be used where the signal 'send', the signal 'return' and the screen can all be kept separate, a technique I approve of, though again, improvements in sound quality are not proven.

Thirdly, they can be used as a balanced cable, the use of +ve and -ve phases run side by side is a good form of noise cancellation, particularly on low level signals over long runs.

However, this is complicated by the fact that most hi-fi components are not balanced, ie a single signal passes through the component from input to ouput. In order for this component to drive a balanced cable the signal needs to be split in two and the phase reversed on one half of the signal to provide a balanced output. This is then transmitted over the cable to the next component, which reverses the process to produce a single ended signal once again.

However, some hi-fi components are actually, themselves fully balanced, so (say) a fully balanced amplifier will have two completely separate signal paths per channel, one of which is out of phase with the other so that when they are combined, any noise/distortion will cancel out. Fully balanced components are fairly rare and tend to be quite expensive, except in many dacs, where the dac chip produces a differential (balanced) signal by default.

 

[andyjm]

Dave is spot on here, but just to add a point - XLR connectors are just that - connectors. They are often used for balanced interconnects as they have 2 signal connections plus a screen, but in of themselves they aren't 'balanced'.

In a studio, balanced interconnects are usually stereo 1/4 inch jacks - they stand more abuse than XLR connectors, and are more suited to regular plugging and unplugging.

In a domestic environment with short cable runs, balanced connections bring no benefit, and under certain circumstances may actually be worse than a simple unbalanced link.

 

[Rimse]

in reality if cd player or dac and amplifier designed with xlr,go with it,it will sound better,it will higher gain and other things mentioned in some post

 

[andyjm]

in reality if cd player or dac and amplifier designed with xlr,go with it,it will sound better,it will higher gain and other things mentioned in some post

I am not sure quite what you mean, but you can't generalise about balanced implementations. Depending on the design, they may or may not involve more steps than a single ended unbalanced connection, and may or may not be 'better'.

 

[stereoman]

Thanks to all for great technical answers. What is interesting is that many Hi Fi reviewers state that XLR connections are rather used in more expensive or so to called Hi End stuff. "In these price ranges XLR is a must" appears in many tests etc. So in fact there must be an advantage or this type of connections is simply used "just in case" - as some of you posted here - for a need of longer cable runs. I think personal tests would be more appropriate to hear the difference of course.

 

[davedotco]

Thanks to all for great technical answers. What is interesting is that many Hi Fi reviewers state that XLR connections are rather used in more expensive or so to called Hi End stuff. "In these price ranges XLR is a must" appears in many tests etc. So in fact there must be an advantage or this type of connections is simply used "just in case" - as some of you posted here - for a need of longer cable runs. I think personal tests would be more appropriate to hear the difference of course.

In most situations the use of XLR connections instead of rca/phono connections is bling, nothing more.

The manufacturers rely on the general ignorance of the hi-fi buying public to sell lots of expensive tosh.

There are three reasons to use XLR connections,

1) Robustness and 'safe' ground first connections, important in a non fixed situation.

2) Long runs of cable carrying relatively low level signals in an electronically noisy environment.

3) The connection of individual hi-fi components that use fully balanced (differential) circuits.

 

[Al ears]

Thanks to all for great technical answers. What is interesting is that many Hi Fi reviewers state that XLR connections are rather used in more expensive or so to called Hi End stuff. "In these price ranges XLR is a must" appears in many tests etc. So in fact there must be an advantage or this type of connections is simply used "just in case" - as some of you posted here - for a need of longer cable runs. I think personal tests would be more appropriate to hear the difference of course.

In most situations the use of XLR connections instead of rca/phono connections is bling, nothing more.

The manufacturers rely on the general ignorance of the hi-fi buying public to sell lots of expensive tosh.

There are three reasons to use XLR connections,

1) Robustness and 'safe' ground first connections, important in a non fixed situation.

2) Long runs of cable carrying relatively low level signals in an electronically noisy environment.

3) The connection of individual hi-fi components that use fully balanced (differential) circuits.

+1. In most household situations the use of XLR connections especially in non-balanced components is purely superfluous.

 

[stereoman]

Thanks to all for great technical answers. What is interesting is that many Hi Fi reviewers state that XLR connections are rather used in more expensive or so to called Hi End stuff. "In these price ranges XLR is a must" appears in many tests etc. So in fact there must be an advantage or this type of connections is simply used "just in case" - as some of you posted here - for a need of longer cable runs. I think personal tests would be more appropriate to hear the difference of course.

In most situations the use of XLR connections instead of rca/phono connections is bling, nothing more.

3) The connection of individual hi-fi components that use fully balanced (differential) circuits.

+1. In most household situations the use of XLR connections especially in non-balanced components is purely superfluous.

Ok but if it was a bling then many low priced products would include XLR connections but I hardly remember any product below 1500 € to have them.

www.audionote.co.uk/articles/art_balanced.shtml

 

[davedotco]

Thanks to all for great technical answers. What is interesting is that many Hi Fi reviewers state that XLR connections are rather used in more expensive or so to called Hi End stuff. "In these price ranges XLR is a must" appears in many tests etc. So in fact there must be an advantage or this type of connections is simply used "just in case" - as some of you posted here - for a need of longer cable runs. I think personal tests would be more appropriate to hear the difference of course.

In most situations the use of XLR connections instead of rca/phono connections is bling, nothing more.

3) The connection of individual hi-fi components that use fully balanced (differential) circuits.

+1. In most household situations the use of XLR connections especially in non-balanced components is purely superfluous.

Ok but if it was a bling then many low priced products would include XLR connections but I hardly remember any product below 1500 € to have them.

www.audionote.co.uk/articles/art_balanced.shtml

Implementing XLR connectors and their associated differential amplifiers is expensive in the context of budget components. In a market so price competitive they would be a liability, price wise.

They do show up occasionally on relatively low cost products, 'bling' in the main.

Some sources, microphones, phono cartridges and many dacs produce a differential output by default. Some, mostly quite hi-end manufacturers, believe that maintaining a differential (balanced) topography throughout the entire playback chain can reduce noise, reduce distortion and improve performance.

Since, in effect, this doubles the signal paths they are considerably more expensive to build than conventional single ended designs. Some consider it important at the highest level, others do not.

 

[andyjm]

Thanks to all for great technical answers. What is interesting is that many Hi Fi reviewers state that XLR connections are rather used in more expensive or so to called Hi End stuff. "In these price ranges XLR is a must" appears in many tests etc. So in fact there must be an advantage or this type of connections is simply used "just in case" - as some of you posted here - for a need of longer cable runs. I think personal tests would be more appropriate to hear the difference of course.

In most situations the use of XLR connections instead of rca/phono connections is bling, nothing more.

3) The connection of individual hi-fi components that use fully balanced (differential) circuits.

+1. In most household situations the use of XLR connections especially in non-balanced components is purely superfluous.

Ok but if it was a bling then many low priced products would include XLR connections but I hardly remember any product below 1500 € to have them.

www.audionote.co.uk/articles/art_balanced.shtml

RCA / phono connectors are dreadful. They commit the ultimate sin of having the signal connect before the ground, in most cases have poor strain relief, poor control over contact pressure, and only survive a small number of 'replugings'.

None of this matters in a home set up. How many times do you replug your equipment?

In a professional studio or stage setup, replugging is the norm, quite often with the equipment powered up. Plugs get trodden on, cables snake all over the place, powerful light dimmers and TV equipment generate lots of EMI. An entirely different set of circumstances.

A Dave points out, balanced connections (may) introduce more steps in the signal chain. Those extra steps may be worth it in certain professional situations, but if you are running the cable 50cm between two boxes in a domestic setting, there is no point using balanced connections and you would probably be better off without the extra steps.

 

[MajorFubar]

Good strong factual comments so far that I can't take any issue with, though I have sometimes wondered why XLR wasn't used by the HiFi industry to carry L, R and gnd in one cable. Sort of like a three-pin uni-directional DIN cable but line level. Useless fact #352: the umbilical cord that connects a PSX to a Cyrus 2 is in fact a short XLR cable which carries ±40VDC to the C2's power-amps.

 

[Electro]

I use balanced interconnects in my system because all of the main components in my system are fully balanced from input to output , the output voltage doubles when using the fully balanced connections.

My Electrocompaniet equipment has a proffessional heritage and was designed from the start to be connected using balanced XLR cables, in this situation balanced XLR cables are very worthwhile and do improve sound quality, Electro amps are often used in the best recording and mastering studio's and are identical to the consumer models.

Some equipment has balanced XLR connections but they are not fully balance internally in which case using balanced interconnects will not make any improvement to the sound, but it is still better to use the XLR connections as they are stronger and make a more secure contact, they are also cheaper and better looking in my opinion, so if you've got them use them.*smile*

Have a look below for some top quality Balanced XLR microphone cables in any colour you choose custom made to your order.

http://www.designacable.com/van-damme-star-quad-balanced-male-xlr-to-female-xlr.html

 

[davedotco]

I use balanced interconnects in my system because all of the main components in my system are fully balanced from input to output , the output voltage doubles when using the fully balanced connections.

My Electrocompaniet equipment has a proffessional heritage and was designed from the start to be connected using balanced XLR cables, in this situation balanced XLR cables are very worthwhile and do improve sound quality, Electro amps are often used in the best recording and mastering studio's and are identical to the consumer models.

Some equipment has balanced XLR connections but they are not fully balance internally in which case using balanced interconnects will not make any improvement to the sound, but it is still better to use the XLR connections as they are stronger and make a more secure contact, they are also cheaper and better looking in my opinion, so if you've got them use them.*smile*

Have a look below for some top quality Balanced XLR microphone cables in any colour you choose custom made to your order.

http://www.designacable.com/studio-leads-76/mic-leads/van-damme-mic-cable-neutrik-xlr-xlr-cables-balanced-microphone-patch-lead.html

Though Electrocompaniet amplifiers are not cheap and most other products that use fully balanced topology are much more expensive.

I think XLRs have considerable practical advantages over rca/phono plugs as detailed in my original post. Whether they offer an improvement sonically with otherwise unbalanced components is difficult ascertain, particulaely when you factor in the additional cost and complexity of the differential amplifier circuits required to 'balance' a single ended signal and vice versa.