Wiim Ultra: How is the sound quality effected when using a Marantz PM6007 or Yamaha A-S501 or power amp?

[Andi-0005]

Sorry if these are really silly questions. I confess I'm a total newbie to this.

Can anyone help me understand how a Wiim Ultra's quality is effected when I use either a Marantz PM6007 stereo amplifier or a Yamaha A-S501 stereo amplifier and on an older amplifier.

If I stream from Qobuz to a Wiim Ultra at a rate of 24-bit/192 to either of example amplifiers what is quality that reaches the speakers?
Does the quality same at 24-bit/192KHZ or decrease?
The A-S501 and the PM6007 both DAC supports 24-bit/192KHZ.

Would it be better to use a power amp?
How about this: AUDIOPHONICS AP300-S125NC Class D Stereo Power Amplifier Ncore NC122MP 2x125W?

What happens to the sound quality/signal when I stream from Qobuz to a Wiim Ultra at a rate of 24-bit/192 to a 20 year old amplifier without a DAC?

Thanks!

Andi

 

[Gray]

They're not silly questions Andi.
They're questions that loads of people are asking themselves - such is the popularity of that Wiim Ultra (and the like).

The Ultra is a 'streaming preamp'.
It can go via an integrated amp or just a power amp into your speakers.

You can think of it as being transparent to the source it gets - your sound will effectively be as good as your amp, speakers and room acoustics.

Doesn't matter how old the amp is, if you like the sound of it, an Ultra into it will sound better than an Ultra into a new amp - that you don't much like the sound of.

If your new amp had a DAC in it, you could use that instead of the one in the Wiim - but it wouldn't necessarily be better.
(As it happens I should be getting an Ultra myself soon and my integrated amp uses an identical DAC).

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

Gray hits the nail ... personally, if streaming was my only source, I'd hook an WiiM Pro+ / Ultra up to a power amplifier and go that route (i.e. streaming pre-amp into amplification) in order to avoid paying for features I don't use (DAC, multiple inputs, etc). Otherwise, for me, it's a one-box solution.

@Gray what sold you on the Ultra over the other WiiM products (not to hijack the thread)?

 

[Andi-0005]

They're not silly questions Andi.
They're questions that loads of people are asking themselves - such is the popularity of that Wiim Ultra (and the like).

The Ultra is a 'streaming preamp'.
It can go via an integrated amp or just a power amp into your speakers.

You can think of it as being transparent to the source it gets - your sound will effectively be as good as your amp, speakers and room acoustics.

Doesn't matter how old the amp is, if you like the sound of it, an Ultra into it will sound better than an Ultra into a new amp - that you don't much like the sound of.

If your new amp had a DAC in it, you could use that instead of the one in the Wiim - but it wouldn't necessarily be better.
(As it happens I should be getting an Ultra myself soon and my integrated amp uses an identical DAC).

Thanks Gray,

So if I use my old AV receiver amplifier I should still be able to hear the details that were in the 24-bit/192KHZ file.
I assumed the old amplifier would loose the extra Hi-res details because it had been designed to work with CD quality sources.

I plan to use the old AV amplifier, I also buy a new Power amp or integrated amp Marantz or Yamaha. I'm not sure which.

So using a Marantz PM6007 would be okay, but I believe the DAC in the PM6007 is not as good as the Wiim. Could it be better to use a Power Amplififer?
What would be best, a budget Marantz or Yamaha or the AUDIOPHONICS AP300-S125NC? The AUDIOPHONICS does not have a DAC?

You write your integrated amp has the same DAC as the Wiim Ultra.
Which integrated amp do you use?

 

[nopiano]

I assumed the old amplifier would loose the extra Hi-res details because it had been designed to work with CD quality sources.

No, it’s the analogue signal from the Wiim that your amplifier amplifies. An amp doesn’t have a restriction on ‘details’. Amps don’t mind if the signal came from FM radio, LP, CD or hi-res streaming, they just make it loud enough to drive your speakers.

In the process, amps will slightly ‘colour’ the sound and add distortion - that’s unavoidable - but no need to change amps simply because you’re now using a Wiim or any other streaming source. And of course you can try routing the digital output into the DAC built into any amp that has one. You’ll either have a preference or not, and that’s simply a choice you alone need to make.

A modern power amplifier will do the job very nicely, as long as your Wiim gives you all the inputs and control you need. An integrated amp is more versatile, but is less transparent than a power amp alone because it has input switches, a volume control, and other circuitry.

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

I would take your old AV amplifier and run it in stereo mode (or just use front left and right) with the WiiM Ultra fed into an RCA input (i.e. have the Ultra act as a) DAC; and b) pre-amplifier). Alternative to this is to still use the control functions of the AV amplifier, but then the Ultra is overkill; and you might as well get the Pro Plus.

Alternatively, ditch it all and get a WiiM amp as a one box solution.

 

[Gray]

You write your integrated amp has the same DAC as the Wiim Ultra.
Which integrated amp do you use?

Cyrus XR-i7.

If you're thinking about using power rather than integrated amp Andi, you might want to put the Fosi V3 Monoblocks on your list of options.
Two of those, each with a 48 volt power supply - good value (and at times discounted slightly further).

 

[Gray]

@Gray what sold you on the Ultra over the other WiiM products (not to hijack the thread)?

The display mostly Juzzie....that and £150 worth of Amazon vouchers, meaning that it will feel like it's costing me £200 🤪

I understand the arguements against its display:
"Too small to be seen from a distance"
"You don't need a display on a device when you've got the app on your phone".
But I'll be close enough to it and it will be handy to identify the odd track from streamed radio - without the need for a phone.
At the moment, there's a limit to what can be done from its touchscreen - but there's just enough to make it viable for me.

Another thing regarded by many as superfluous, is the remote control that you get with it (and the Pro Plus of course).
For me, the presets on that (also controllable from the Ultra's display) are a genius addition.....the ability to start the music playing, without a phone in sight. Call me old fashioned - because I am 👍.

 

[nopiano]

The display mostly Juzzie....that and £150 worth of Amazon vouchers, meaning that it will feel like it's costing me £200 🤪

I understand the arguements against its display:
"Too small to be seen from a distance"
"You don't need a display on a device when you've got the app on your phone".
But I'll be close enough to it and it will be handy to identify the odd track from streamed radio - without the need for a phone.
At the moment, there's a limit to what can be done from its touchscreen - but there's just enough to make it viable for me.

Another thing regarded by many as superfluous, is the remote control that you get with it (and the Pro Plus of course).
For me, the presets on that (also controllable from the Ultra's display) are a genius addition.....the ability to start the music playing, without a phone in sight. Call me old fashioned - because I am 👍.

I’m still running the Wiim Pro Plus into my Fosi V3 Monos. I’ve got accustomed to tapping the fascia of the Wiim to start it on the last source I listened to, usually Radio 3.

The signal triggers the Monos to wake up. My Wiim remote is still sealed in the bag!

But, and it’s quite a big but, I can’t turn it off without the app. In fact all I seem to be able to do is select pause, then after 15 minutes it powers off (it’s adjustable), and then the amps shut down too!

I wonder if the Ultra turns off mechanically via the volume knob? Perhaps that’s what the remote would do? (I must look at the little user guide)

 

[Gray]

I wonder if the Ultra turns off mechanically via the volume knob? Perhaps that’s what the remote would do? (I must look at the little user guide)

I've seen Ultra users complaining about the lack of 'off'.
They must mean fully off, as I assume the standby button on the remote turns it as off as it gets 🤔

I read the full Hi-Fi News review of the Pro Plus, when it went onto their website this week.
Wiim couldn't have asked for better.
Even the lab report could only find insignificant nits to pick.
No wonder Andrew Everard puts it in the same disrupter category as the original NAD 3020A.

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

Interestingly, when I tap the "play" button on the WiiM mini it doesn't restart the track / service I was last using ... which is frustrating. Perhaps a PP or Ultra should make it's way under the tree at the end of the year!

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

I’m still running the Wiim Pro Plus into my Fosi V3 Monos. I’ve got accustomed to tapping the fascia of the Wiim to start it on the last source I listened to, usually Radio 3.

The signal triggers the Monos to wake up. My Wiim remote is still sealed in the bag!

But, and it’s quite a big but, I can’t turn it off without the app. In fact all I seem to be able to do is select pause, then after 15 minutes it powers off (it’s adjustable), and then the amps shut down too!

I wonder if the Ultra turns off mechanically via the volume knob? Perhaps that’s what the remote would do? (I must look at the little user guide)

To me - this is an excellent (multi-box) set-up for streaming. I like it.

 

[Gray]

To me - this is an excellent (multi-box) set-up for streaming. I like it.

It really is.
Today's price (with £20 off of one of the V3) means you get the three for £500.
Add a decent pair of speakers.....

It's all some people will ever need - great for first-time hi-fi buyers (if not so great for the future of the traditional hi-fi industry).

 

[nopiano]

To me - this is an excellent (multi-box) set-up for streaming. I like it.

Thanks! It is just me trying to find out if I really need a Linn DSM and a Pass amplifier! About ten grand’s worth to buy new, and maybe half that if I was to sell onwards. Versus £166.00 plus £206.74 for the Wiim and Fosi pair (by careful timing with the Wiim, and buying direct with 20% off in the case of Fosi). That’s £373 all in!

I keep meaning to dig out my price-appropriate QA3020i as so far I’ve only used my Sonus fabers. That’s a tale in itself!

The best solution would probably be to swap the lot for a pair of KEF LS60, but once I move away from the preamp I struggle with turntable, CD player, tuner and cassette deck options. One at a time just about works, but 90% of my listening is to internet radio or Qobuz and the Wiim does just brilliantly for that.

I didn’t even mention the built in room correction!

 

[manicm]

WiiiM is not having it all its way, another very favourable Bluesound Nano review that correlates almost exactly to one from AVReview.

So something new for you to ponder before you flash the cash. This is getting serious.

View: https://youtu.be/H9tpfdRlHlA?si=900WJ3b9Avf-ockK

 

[Gray]

WiiiM is not having it all its way

Indeed not.
But then, if Bluesound had their way they wouldn't have dipped to the Nano price.
Very much a case of no Wiim, no Nano, that's for sure.

 

[manicm]

Indeed not.
But then, if Bluesound had their way they wouldn't have dipped to the Nano price.
Very much a case of no Wiim, no Nano, that's for sure.

They haven't actually dipped the Nano price - it's a new lower rung model. You're mistaking it as the replacement for the Bluesound Powernode Edge perhaps - that was amplified. Also note the Nano has no HDMI port, it's a brand new model.

Bluesound haven't yet launched newer amplified models.

Before Bluesound only had 1 standalone streamer, simply called the Node, or the special edition Node X. They now have 3, the Nano, the Node 2024 with HDMI (replacing the abovementioned models), and the high-end Icon with display, which is fully balanced with dual DAC chips.

 

[Gray]

They haven't actually dipped the Nano price - it's a new lower rung model.

Yes I know 👍
I meant they dipped to their lowest ever streamer price.
(Created a new lowest rung in response to Wiim).

The Icon model looks good.

 

[twinkletoes]

The best thing they have implemented on the mid, higher end models is the direc live feature which will walk all over Wiim and eversolo for the moment, there room correction features are no where near this level.

Pair a node or icon with a pair active speaker like the ae1's fire up direc live and you'd have a very formidable system and the room correction also work on the line outs into a traditional stereo system. It gives alot of food for thought, With those 2 products it really is worth ponying up the extra for node for the room correction features.

 

[Gray]

The best thing they have implemented on the mid, higher end models is the direc live feature which will walk all over Wiim and eversolo for the moment, there room correction features are no where near this level.

Will it?
Said it before but no room 'correction' could have corrected my room the way that physical measures did in my case.

I've seen so many people saying that they prefer things with their (sophisticated or otherwise) room correction turned off.
I'll manage without the sophistication 👍

 

[Al ears]

Will it?
Said it before but no room 'correction' could have corrected my room the way that physical measures did in my case.

I've seen so many people saying that they prefer things with their (sophisticated or otherwise) room correction turned off.
I'll manage without the sophistication 👍

indeed, room correction to me is merely fine tuning. If the speakers don't work well in your room the addition of room correction is pretty meaningless.

 

[Gray]

indeed, room correction to me is merely fine tuning. If the speakers don't work well in your room the addition of room correction is pretty meaningless.

Plenty of people will regard it as more than fine tuning, maybe even transformational at certain frequencies.
But in the frequencies (and fluttery echo) that was compromising my sound....no chance of any software based 'correction' rectifying the cause.

So no, I'll never be choosing anything based on the type of room correction it comes with.
(They can take it out and charge me less if they want 🙂).

 

[Andi-0005]

Cyrus XR-i7.

If you're thinking about using power rather than integrated amp Andi, you might want to put the Fosi V3 Monoblocks on your list of options.
Two of those, each with a 48 volt power supply - good value (and at times discounted slightly further).

Hi Gray I never considered anything from Fosi until you made the suggestion (that come from being a newbie).
The Fosi V3 has become a serious contender for me. I have gone back and thought on this with various options such as the A-S501/701, the NAD D3020 and the Fosi ZA3.
I'm most likely to buy a Fosi product, but will it be the ZA3 for ease or a pair of Fosi V3's, I'm still unsure right now.
Thanks for your advice.
I wait till the Black Friday sales before I buy an amplifier.

 

[Gray]

I wait till the Black Friday sales before I buy an amplifier.

That's not a bad idea, since it's not that far off now Andi
Though reading your original post, it's not totally clear whether or not you already own an amplifier.
If you do, there may be no need to buy another.
If you don't, then think about the music source(s) that you will be putting through it - now and in the future.

Most of us here have owned / still do own hi-fi separates such as turntables, cd players, tuners etc.....that's why we've needed integrated amplifiers.
You may well have the option of buying just the power amp(s).

 

[Andi-0005]

That's not a bad idea, since it's not that far off now Andi
Though reading your original post, it's not totally clear whether or not you already own an amplifier.
If you do, there may be no need to buy another.
If you don't, then think about the music source(s) that you will be putting through it - now and in the future.

Most of us here have owned / still do own hi-fi separates such as turntables, cd players, tuners etc.....that's why we've needed integrated amplifiers.
You may well have the option of buying just the power amp(s).

I use an old Pioneer AV system/amplifier from 2001. Currently I have the Wiim Ultra connected to it in the living room.
However my intention is to use the Wiim in my home/office with a new amp and speakers (bookshelf or wall mounted). The office is small, about 10.5 square meters. Although the room is small I really hope to fill the space with good full sound for classical music, rather than using desktop speakers basting into my face.