Why it is (almost) pointless to recommend speakers

[Rui]

i think today more than ever the positioning of the speakers must be the best possible if limited to space in our homes,

some litle speakers do sound bad if not correctelly positioned but i also noticed by looking to several, supposed to be good speakers , the Elac´s that were many times talked about recenttelly ,in the last two years,

knowing the brand i thought they had to be good but heard some with great specifications but a litle size speakers those if not with correct installed loose a lot of it´s quality ,

but the ones that surprised me the most are the vella 2.0 , a bit over priced, so to speak. but great in sound, also the specifications of some more afordable speakers they seem not that good,

comparing them with older 80´s speakers, i refer more to the sensivety being less than 90db´s as i was used to big boxy speakers that were all above 100db´s sensitivety,

in late 80´s bought some tannoy sixies that when conecting them to a new amplifier the A-616mk II from pioneer (first i installed them on a 77 top amplifier from HH Scott professional they said but maybe because they had handles to put in a rack that was fashion at the time),

at start i wasn´t that happy with them but with time i noticed the quality refered by many critics, now i still love the way they sound, this some 605 with stands as they have a diferent shape ,one needs to buy the stands from the brand to make`em look good and sound even better.

Now all speakers are are installed with stands ,even new boxy speakers that were a fashion some years ago, well maybe they don´t sound that good and a variety of stands are being used to put any speakers on them, only i never thought of using them , only in speakers that the maker says they need to be at your listening position level.

About records , they used to sound even better if with a new and high quality amplifier with also very good speakers ,

it seems that the cds at direct sound sounded a lot under the turntable quality and i was using a 74 pioneer turntable with the PC-30 cartridge and PN-50 stylus, and my cd player in use at the time was considered one of the best ,i´m refering to a PD-9000 i had just bought,

i´m not saying it was bad but the turntable with original cartridge from 74 with still sold stylus like they were ´till the 2000 year that i know of, sounded so good,

having also a good cassette deck, when i recorded songs from the cd the cassette sounded better than the cd sound, was a CT-91a also Pioneer, i remenber listening to the siouxie and the banshes doble lp live "Nocturne" it never had sounded so good, really perfect levels and mixing also the detail of every instrument being played , this when Robert Smith was the guitar player

 

[ToppingSMSL]

i think today more than ever the positioning of the speakers must be the best possible if limited to space in our homes,

some litle speakers do sound bad if not correctelly positioned but i also noticed by looking to several, supposed to be good speakers , the Elac´s that were many times talked about recenttelly ,in the last two years,

knowing the brand i thought they had to be good but heard some with great specifications but a litle size speakers those if not with correct installed loose a lot of it´s quality ,

but the ones that surprised me the most are the vella 2.0 , a bit over priced, so to speak. but great in sound, also the specifications of some more afordable speakers they seem not that good,

comparing them with older 80´s speakers, i refer more to the sensivety being less than 90db´s as i was used to big boxy speakers that were all above 100db´s sensitivety,

in late 80´s bought some tannoy sixies that when conecting them to a new amplifier the A-616mk II from pioneer (first i installed them on a 77 top amplifier from HH Scott professional they said but maybe because they had handles to put in a rack that was fashion at the time),

at start i wasn´t that happy with them but with time i noticed the quality refered by many critics, now i still love the way they sound, this some 605 with stands as they have a diferent shape ,one needs to buy the stands from the brand to make`em look good and sound even better.

Now all speakers are are installed with stands ,even new boxy speakers that were a fashion some years ago, well maybe they don´t sound that good and a variety of stands are being used to put any speakers on them, only i never thought of using them , only in speakers that the maker says they need to be at your listening position level.

About records , they used to sound even better if with a new and high quality amplifier with also very good speakers ,

it seems that the cds at direct sound sounded a lot under the turntable quality and i was using a 74 pioneer turntable with the PC-30 cartridge and PN-50 stylus, and my cd player in use at the time was considered one of the best ,i´m refering to a PD-9000 i had just bought,

i´m not saying it was bad but the turntable with original cartridge from 74 with still sold stylus like they were ´till the 2000 year that i know of, sounded so good,

having also a good cassette deck, when i recorded songs from the cd the cassette sounded better than the cd sound, was a CT-91a also Pioneer, i remenber listening to the siouxie and the banshes doble lp live "Nocturne" it never had sounded so good, really perfect levels and mixing also the detail of every instrument being played , this when Robert Smith was the guitar player

Sounds like you just preferred the added distortion and compression that transfering to cassette added to the music. Because that's the only difference there is.

 

[abacus]

i think today more than ever the positioning of the speakers must be the best possible if limited to space in our homes,

some litle speakers do sound bad if not correctelly positioned but i also noticed by looking to several, supposed to be good speakers , the Elac´s that were many times talked about recenttelly ,in the last two years,

knowing the brand i thought they had to be good but heard some with great specifications but a litle size speakers those if not with correct installed loose a lot of it´s quality ,

but the ones that surprised me the most are the vella 2.0 , a bit over priced, so to speak. but great in sound, also the specifications of some more afordable speakers they seem not that good,

comparing them with older 80´s speakers, i refer more to the sensivety being less than 90db´s as i was used to big boxy speakers that were all above 100db´s sensitivety,

in late 80´s bought some tannoy sixies that when conecting them to a new amplifier the A-616mk II from pioneer (first i installed them on a 77 top amplifier from HH Scott professional they said but maybe because they had handles to put in a rack that was fashion at the time),

at start i wasn´t that happy with them but with time i noticed the quality refered by many critics, now i still love the way they sound, this some 605 with stands as they have a diferent shape ,one needs to buy the stands from the brand to make`em look good and sound even better.

Now all speakers are are installed with stands ,even new boxy speakers that were a fashion some years ago, well maybe they don´t sound that good and a variety of stands are being used to put any speakers on them, only i never thought of using them , only in speakers that the maker says they need to be at your listening position level.

About records , they used to sound even better if with a new and high quality amplifier with also very good speakers ,

it seems that the cds at direct sound sounded a lot under the turntable quality and i was using a 74 pioneer turntable with the PC-30 cartridge and PN-50 stylus, and my cd player in use at the time was considered one of the best ,i´m refering to a PD-9000 i had just bought,

i´m not saying it was bad but the turntable with original cartridge from 74 with still sold stylus like they were ´till the 2000 year that i know of, sounded so good,

having also a good cassette deck, when i recorded songs from the cd the cassette sounded better than the cd sound, was a CT-91a also Pioneer, i remenber listening to the siouxie and the banshes doble lp live "Nocturne" it never had sounded so good, really perfect levels and mixing also the detail of every instrument being played , this when Robert Smith was the guitar player

If you record something from one piece of equipment to another, it should sound identical to the original, if it does not, then the item doing the recording is of poor quality.
Unless using external processing (As used in studios) you cannot make the original sound better, no matter what you record to.

Bill

 

[Rui]

If you record something from one piece of equipment to another, it should sound identical to the original, if it does not, then the item doing the recording is of poor quality.
Unless using external processing (As used in studios) you cannot make the original sound better, no matter what you record to.

Bill

If the source ins´t very good in the cassette decks with flat response it´s noticeable the improvement in sound, but normally it´s true, one calibrates it to sounds as the source if with good sound, only some cds don´t sound as good as the original record, this refering to 90´s and 80´s albums with great sound in records,

to end if the cassette deck is top quality it gives room to a improvement in sound depending on the source also recorded to DAT is noticeable the quality of the recording ,

this talking about top decks also from Sony, it doesn´t make miracles but a litle is noticed,

the range is superior in what concerns to the equalization upgrade as it includes all frequencies, this with top quality recording material, it´s hard for me to explain in English ,i would have to show you

 

[Rui]

Sounds like you just preferred the added distortion and compression that transfering to cassette added to the music. Because that's the only difference there is.

it seems you don´t know about tape recording, to resume it, the masters either in analog or digital are recorded to tape,
when cds appear a lot of persons noticed the diference from cd to a recorded cassette, in blind tests made everyone would choose the cassette recorded being the cd,
as it was supposed to be better, in more than 30 years of tape recording i can´t explain it to you, in a few sentencies,
like why sheets printed showing the cd is more dynamic than vinyl but in reality if the vinil sounds good it tops any cd dynamics , the sound spreads wider,
i remenber when the SACD was still in development ,one of the improvements refered was "to match vinyl quality"
also the better amplifiers and speakers you have the more noticeable is the superior sound of the records making cds sound stéril ,
and doesn´t make sense spend 30.000€ in a cd player system while in second hand you can buy a turntable with the same quality in sound for 350€ with a new 300€ cartridge ,
if not already with it´s original cartridge and i´ve bought them cheaper but this in a time that no one was hearing records in average

 

[ToppingSMSL]

it seems you don´t know about tape recording, to resume it, the masters either in analog or digital are recorded to tape,
when cds appear a lot of persons noticed the diference from cd to a recorded cassette, in blind tests made everyone would choose the cassette recorded being the cd,
as it was supposed to be better, in more than 30 years of tape recording i can´t explain it to you, in a few sentencies,
like why sheets printed showing the cd is more dynamic than vinyl but in reality if the vinil sounds good it tops any cd dynamics , the sound spreads wider,
i remenber when the SACD was still in development ,one of the improvements refered was "to match vinyl quality"
also the better amplifiers and speakers you have the more noticeable is the superior sound of the records making cds sound stéril ,
and doesn´t make sense spend 30.000€ in a cd player system while in second hand you can buy a turntable with the same quality in sound for 350€ with a new 300€ cartridge ,
if not already with it´s original cartridge and i´ve bought them cheaper but this in a time that no one was hearing records in average

Tape distorts the sound in a pleasing way.

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

I think you can make recommendations as long as they are couched in "why you made that choice". For instance:

a) I once owned Neat Iotas as they suited the space I was operating in and I needed a small speaker.
b) My first surround system was a sat+sub system ... again to suit the space and judgment of another set of eyes.
c) I now own Dali Oberon 5s as i) they came in white; ii) they were reasonably well sized; iii) they received favourable reviews; and iv) it is suggested they are neutral / non-fussy.

Would I recommend my tube pre/power amp combo to anyone? Hell no, but for me it is special due to the story behind it. But do I get annoyed at having to switch it on and wait for it to warm up? Yes.

etc, etc.

I think that is where the "bickering" on this forum comes from ... the definitive "you must think this way" statement as opposed to "in my view, the B&Ws sounded shrill" or the like.

Soz. Rant over!

 

[Rui]

Tape distorts the sound in a pleasing way.

so does digital recording and also depends on the cassette deck quality,

as a example if the source is good a type I cassette , well built tops a type II cassette in a lesser quality source,

like the rythm if louder than voice will records in a maximum scale while if the voice or mid frequency arrives to that level you´ll notice easy the limit level causing distortion,

as it should only be lighted for a few moments not constantly be lighted, sorry but my technical english isn´t good,

i can´t explain it better , even yesterday i recorded a TDK AR in a CT-91a from Pioneer, a 89 model, it as been restored and using sendust ferrite heads, it releases a very pleasant sound recorded to the limit which is high,

while in a DAT Sony deck from 96, i was recording a 75 Bob dylan live album, with not so good sound, not from the bootleg series but it as been digitalized and recorded to many diferent recording devices,

i recorded it to a DAT cassette, it records with a superior sound but not as good as the cassette who was recorded from a recent released record with top quality,

Amy and the Sniffers first LP, after a while listening to both , the cassette only sounded better because the source was a lot higher in sound quality ,

the older 75 recording of Bob dylan´s rollin`thunder , it´s gipsy phase is recorded ok but not top quality in studio today,

allthough some lp´s, new ones when played seem to have a bit of distortion as in digital when to much tracks are recorded in one song the digital format compact disc reaches it´s limit,at least i think it´s the problem

as an example welfare Jazz from Viagra Boys, the reason why i still buy some records, some how i enjoyed the song "Ain´t nice", i used to not give value to some types of music,

but when still young and tried to put together one band ,it ended up being two and in school the boys and girls ,even playing with guitars out of key and sometimes each at it´s tempo or all in the same tempo,

but as the drum rythm goes faster all others keep up playing faster, only noticed that by hearing a recording,

So i start to give more apreciation to those who seemed easy to play their songs which wasn´t ,we tried,

it was pos-punk, punk music , a way to say we sucked but was fashion and where i live almost no one had music instruments, but i had already old but now considered good equipment, Vintage.

I used to say i have a old jaguar from Fender who had strong sound, only recentelly i discovered it was a Bass IV from Fender with six strings, that´s why it sounded so strange (good) and put two guitar amplifiers out of work a fender and a peavey , never had heard of six string bass guitars,

when i saw the redone Let it be, movie ,i noticed John Lennon was playing bass on a jaguar guitar,

i thought, only discovered that last weekend, because i saw the new Led Zeppelin documentary which is very good and noticed in the photage a jaguar guitar saying Bass IV, also discovered why the first led zeppelin album as, in all formats sold , distortion .
Sorry for drifting

 

[ToppingSMSL]

so does digital recording and also depends on the cassette deck quality,

as a example if the source is good a type I cassette , well built tops a type II cassette in a lesser quality source,

like the rythm if louder than voice will records in a maximum scale while if the voice or mid frequency arrives to that level you´ll notice easy the limit level causing distortion,

as it should only be lighted for a few moments not constantly be lighted, sorry but my technical english isn´t good,

i can´t explain it better , even yesterday i recorded a TDK AR in a CT-91a from Pioneer, a 89 model, it as been restored and using sendust ferrite heads, it releases a very pleasant sound recorded to the limit which is high,

while in a DAT Sony deck from 96, i was recording a 75 Bob dylan live album, with not so good sound, not from the bootleg series but it as been digitalized and recorded to many diferent recording devices,

i recorded it to a DAT cassette, it records with a superior sound but not as good as the cassette who was recorded from a recent released record with top quality,

Amy and the Sniffers first LP, after a while listening to both , the cassette only sounded better because the source was a lot higher in sound quality ,

the older 75 recording of Bob dylan´s rollin`thunder , it´s gipsy phase is recorded ok but not top quality in studio today,

allthough some lp´s, new ones when played seem to have a bit of distortion as in digital when to much tracks are recorded in one song the digital format compact disc reaches it´s limit,at least i think it´s the problem

as an example welfare Jazz from Viagra Boys, the reason why i still buy some records, some how i enjoyed the song "Ain´t nice", i used to not give value to some types of music,

but when still young and tried to put together one band ,it ended up being two and in school the boys and girls ,even playing with guitars out of key and sometimes each at it´s tempo or all in the same tempo,

but as the drum rythm goes faster all others keep up playing faster, only noticed that by hearing a recording,

So i start to give more apreciation to those who seemed easy to play their songs which wasn´t ,we tried,

it was pos-punk, punk music , a way to say we sucked but was fashion and where i live almost no one had music instruments, but i had already old but now considered good equipment, Vintage.

I used to say i have a old jaguar from Fender who had strong sound, only recentelly i discovered it was a Bass IV from Fender with six strings, that´s why it sounded so strange (good) and put two guitar amplifiers out of work a fender and a peavey , never had heard of six string bass guitars,

when i saw the redone Let it be, movie ,i noticed John Lennon was playing bass on a jaguar guitar,

i thought, only discovered that last weekend, because i saw the new Led Zeppelin documentary which is very good and noticed in the photage a jaguar guitar saying Bass IV, also discovered why the first led zeppelin album as, in all formats sold , distortion .
Sorry for drifting

Very long post but I'm afraid I disagree with you at the very start. Digital does not distort the sound. Certainly not in a way you can hear.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

I think this is an example of a speaker you could easily recommend, because it measures so well:

AsciLab F6Bs Speaker Review

This is a review, detailed measurements, EQ and listening test of AsciLab F6Bs bookshelf/surround speaker. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $575 [now $725 with shipping included] for a pair. This is an absolutely gorgeous design! It feels that way as well with a solid cabinet that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Gray]

I think this is an example of a speaker you could easily recommend, because it measures so well:

AsciLab F6Bs Speaker Review

This is a review, detailed measurements, EQ and listening test of AsciLab F6Bs bookshelf/surround speaker. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $575 [now $725 with shipping included] for a pair. This is an absolutely gorgeous design! It feels that way as well with a solid cabinet that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

A fair while after I'd bought and had been enjoying the sound of my PMC twenty21 speakers, I read an ASR review which wrote them off as a 'design failure'.

Another member on here owned the same model - and said the review helped him confirm why he didn't really like its sound, yet he said he'd chosen the model by listening. 🤪

If nothing else, it proves the influence of the ASR site - which has a cult-like following.
He's a technically clever bloke, with very thorough objective reviews - I'd trust him to point me towards a decent DAC, but I'd never let him choose my speakers for me.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

A fair while after I'd bought and had been enjoying the sound of my PMC twenty21 speakers, I read an ASR review which wrote them off as a 'design failure'.

Another member on here owned the same model - and said the review helped him confirm why he didn't really like its sound, yet he said he'd chosen the model by listening. 🤪

If nothing else, it proves the influence of the ASR site - which has a cult-like following.
He's a technically clever bloke, with very thorough objective reviews - I'd trust him to point me towards a decent DAC, but I'd never let him choose my speakers for me.

He can guide you towards speakers which measure well. Good measuring speakers are going to mean your listening room is the main factor colouring the sound. Bad measuring speakers mean it's both the listening room and the speakers colouring the sound.

 

[RJW232]

A fair while after I'd bought and had been enjoying the sound of my PMC twenty21 speakers, I read an ASR review which wrote them off as a 'design failure'.

T.b.h. I can't imagine that a company like PMC makes huges design failures. They might need to compromise on some aspects to get the product on a specific price point, but that's still not a design failure. Given the fact that not many hifi reviewers have an academic degree in electronics and acoustics, I have more trust in R&D engineers in reputable HIFI companies than in reviewers/writers.

 

[Jasonovich]

A fair while after I'd bought and had been enjoying the sound of my PMC twenty21 speakers, I read an ASR review which wrote them off as a 'design failure'.

Another member on here owned the same model - and said the review helped him confirm why he didn't really like its sound, yet he said he'd chosen the model by listening. 🤪

If nothing else, it proves the influence of the ASR site - which has a cult-like following.
He's a technically clever bloke, with very thorough objective reviews - I'd trust him to point me towards a decent DAC, but I'd never let him choose my speakers for me.

Good point you make Gray.
Just want to add.
Some manufacturers deliberately tailor the measurements to get a particular sound from their speakers which is characteristic of the brands sound.

Manufacturers are not naive about measurements, linearity is not always the desired outcome.

People looking for linearity in speakers, might be worth checking into the background of the manufacturer in respect of their audio philosophy, their ethos. This gives clue what sound characteristics they're trying to emulate in their speakers.

 

[abacus]

Anybody remember Tangent loudspeakers from (I believe) the late 70s which were getting fantastic reviews from the magazines at the time for there spacious sound (If you heard a rocket sound it felt like it was leaving the room was one reviewers response), however when the magazines that also measured equipment in addition to listening, it was found that Tangent connected there drive units out of phase with each other, thus causing large suck outs in the frequency response giving them that spacious feel, but were not reproducing anything like what was being fed into them. (The fad eventually died away of course but it did show how just listening to something is not always the best way to find something that is accurate, unless you are absolutely sure that the manufacturer is telling you the truth)

Bill

 

[Gray]

...Bad measuring speakers mean it's both the listening room and the speakers colouring the sound.

That's true.
Meaning it's possible that deviations from both cancel themselves out to make a speaker suitable for the room.
(Home loan / listening is the only real review that anyone should rely on).

 

[Gray]

Manufacturers are not naive about measurements, linearity is not always the desired outcome.

Well if they are deliberately engineering a 'house sound' then they shouldn't be making the 'faithful to the original recording' claim that so many of them make in their adverts.

Most people accept that buying speakers blind is a risky business - and relying on reviews and recommendations....is still ignoring the only surefire way to decide.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

That's true.
Meaning it's possible that deviations from both cancel themselves out to make a speaker suitable for the room.
(Home loan / listening is the only real review that anyone should rely on).

That would be pure luck and probably unlikely. It can also mean both add to each other making things worse in some frequencies. You are best to start from the position of good measuring speakers as it means less room correction is needed.

This also highlights why it's fairly pointless to fuss over DACs and amps as they affect the sound so little compared to the speakers and room.

 

[Gray]

This also highlights why it's fairly pointless to fuss over DACs and amps as they affect the sound so little compared to the speakers and room.

It always amazes me how people in completely bare, non- carpeted rooms, hear the difference in cables 😲

 

[Jasonovich]

Well if they are deliberately engineering a 'house sound' then they shouldn't be making the 'faithful to the original recording' claim that so many of them make in their adverts.

Most people accept that buying speakers blind is a risky business - and relying on reviews and recommendations....is still ignoring the only surefire way to decide.

You know that's just marketing. Their house sound may be perceived by many as faithful to the original recording, this is where we enter into the realms of subjectivity. I never believe in manufacturers claims 🙂

For many people, the only option available to them is reviews and other people recommendations; if I had a dealership near me, where I'm able to listen to a demo, it's a no brainer that would be my preference.

I don't know if there's any credence to the idea, where you're able to listen to your speakers of choice remotely. You book a demo with your dealer but you're at home.

You're linked by Zoom or MS Teams directly to the demo room, your headphones are on, the sound platform is Hi-Res PCM. Apart from the technical challenges, I think it might work?

If you can't go to the Mountain, let the Mountain come to You!

I think @davidf or @MUSICRAFT is going to tell me it's a daft idea 🙂

 

[Dave_]

It always amazes me how people in completely bare, non- carpeted rooms, hear the difference in cables 😲

Equally those that believe in (and hear differences in) every audiophile cliche going ,then litter the forums with pictures of all their systems and you see they haven't got a single system where their speaker positioning is anything less than dog 💩

 

[ToppingSMSL]

It always amazes me how people in completely bare, non- carpeted rooms, hear the difference in cables 😲

I thought I could hear the difference in cables back in the 90s and 00s. I bought some different ones, van den Hul interconnects. Expectation bias etc is quite powerful, and of course nobody keeps switching back and forth between cables for days or weeks so once you think your new cable sounds better that's that and you just assume it does from that point onward.

I think nowadays there are far more people that realise the cable industry is a con, there are so many youtubers nowadays who realise it - Amir at ASR, all the Headphone Show guys (including Goldensound), the guy at Super Review, the Audioholics guy, the AP Mastering guy. Many of them have videos explaining why it has to be nonsense. But still there are some who choose to believe!