why does my old cd player sound better than my newer cd player going through my dac?

[shafesk]

[/quote]

This. Also, to agree with the earlier poster, I don't believe streaming sounds any better or different than using a competent cdp as a transport. This is based on both the theory and my own experience.

Streaming does sound different even when connected to the same dac, my apple tv sounds quite bad compared to my airport express which in turn sounds worse than my Marantz cd63KI all via my dacmagic and I'm not even bringing proper hi-fi streamers to the equation here.

 

[ReValveiT]

As for ReValveIt, I cannot argue constructively with anyone who on one hand can't entertain the possibility that there are variances between transports which can have at least a minor influence on the sound quality, yet in the same thread argues some rippers on computers give worse/better rips than others.

I'm not arguing that one ripper gives better rips than another. I'm saying that I'd rather use a ripper that GUARANTEES an error free rip; ya know, so I don't have to listen through every second of a whole album for clicks and skips after every rip.

I ripped 250 CDs with DBpoweramp using my £10 Asus drive. 248 of those ripped 100% accurate on the first pass. That's 1 single read at 40x normal speed. No jumping back and forth fixing errors or making sure it's right, just an accurate first pass rip.

for one CD transport to sound consistently worse than another, we'd have to be talking at least 1 interpolated error AT LEAST every 10 milliseconds thoughout a whole disc on EVERY disc you played through it. If that was the case then I think it would be fair to say there's something seriously wrong with that transport, no?

 

[MajorFubar]

Ok genuinely my last thoughts on this, I've had a stressful day and perhaps I'm more short-tempered than I usually am. Sorry.

1) People on here have tried the same outboard DAC with different CDPs and transports, and have reported, reliably imo, that the SQ varied. They are not deaf, imagining things, otherwise deluded, nor, presumably, do they have anything to gain financially from their conclusion.

2) Manufacturers like Linn have ceased making CDPs completely because they compared their best CD player with their best streamer and their streamer wiped the floor with it, even playing the same CD-quality audio. Really there was only one variable: lack of CD. Therefore, if completely removing CDs from the equation offers the potential of better SQ, the possibility that there are SQ differences between different transports is not too radical a possibility to entertain.

3) No, I know that not all streamers sound better than CDPs, my earlier statement as such missed the rather important clause of 'All else being equal',which I didn't type because it was a rushed reply, typed when I was being paid to do something other than reply to WHF forum posts.

4) Always let your ears decide. If something sounds better to you, go with it. Don't let someone convince you that you're an idiot just because their perception of the science behind it says you cannot be hearing what you heard.

TTFN.

 

[Craig M.]

This. Also, to agree with the earlier poster, I don't believe streaming sounds any better or different than using a competent cdp as a transport. This is based on both the theory and my own experience.

Streaming does sound different even when connected to the same dac, my apple tv sounds quite bad compared to my airport express which in turn sounds worse than my Marantz cd63KI all via my dacmagic and I'm not even bringing proper hi-fi streamers to the equation here.

[/quote]

Thanks for putting me straight. That, quite obviously, is your opinion. Mine is different. This is were ab/x tests have the upper hand, opinion is removed, it comes down to what you can actually hear - not what you think you can hear. Audiophiles don't like them of course, because a lot of what they think turns out rather different.

 

[Native_bon]

So many things has to be taking into account when dealing with music & hifi.Do some people want to hear things that are not there yes. Just so they can justify spending all that money on another piece of HIFI. Do changes happen sometimes to the sound yes it does. Also a chnage in sound may not mean a better sound.

The way I approach HIFI even if evryone says this is the best bargin HIFI in history I will not believe it untill i have a listen for myself. Then & only then will i come to a conclusion. I think this is the problem, most people say things cause others say it, & not really finding out for themself first. Thats the nature of man. The trick is dnt let any theory or any review fool you. Just use them as a guide then make up ur own bloody mind .. I think thats one reason why God gave us ears..?

Phew :wall:

 

[ReValveiT]

Well, this could easily be settled.

If the OP could send both CD players to me, I can perform a series of 'null' tests comparing the digital output of both players to a known error-free rip. This is an 'absolute' test that, provided both transports pass bit-perfect data to the SPDIF (they should) will reveal any and every tiny error produced by a player. This will answer the question once and for all but, I would be willing to bet my house that neither player will produce enough errors to actually change the sound quality. And, given a clean CD, I'll be extremely surprised if either player produces a single solitary error.

 

[the record spot]

Currently three disc spinners going into the Onkyo - the Denon DVD-3930 and the DCD-1420, plus a Marantz CD52Se.

The two Denons are similar, the Marantz different, bassier, and more upfront and the more engaging listen. Music streamed off the HDD and the Touch sound fuller, with bigger bass. The only time I'd ever refer to "night and day". This is a mix of mp3 and WAV and the mp3s are at various bitrates, but typically 192 and 320, with the odd 128 thrown in for good measure. They all sound excellent too.

So yeah, transport makes a difference based on my experience.

 

[ReValveiT]

Electro magnetic interference, and its affects on a DACs analog output stage, would be a plausible explanation. This is a proven and measurable cause of performance degradation in electronics. One transport may simply be producing more than the other, thus the sound difference reported by the OP.

Years ago I had my CD player on top of my Amp. I moved the CD player several inches above the Amp purely for better ventilation and the (completely unexpected) improvement in SQ knocked me for six. A very real and undeniable improvement that could only be attributed to the affects of EMI (not the record co.)

Well, I've been banging on about what I DON'T think it is, figured I'd better offer what I do.

 

[the record spot]

Which would be a possibility if, in my case, they were all linked up at the same time. They are just now, but they're not all switched on. Then I sometimes just have the Marantz, or the Denon (the 3930), so it's not a case of the same lineup every time, but the same differences occur no matter how they are arranged.

 

[Native_bon]

Well, this could easily be settled.

If the OP could send both CD players to me, I can perform a series of 'null' tests comparing the digital output of both players to a known error-free rip. This is an 'absolute' test that, provided both transports pass bit-perfect data to the SPDIF (they should) will reveal any and every tiny error produced by a player. This will answer the question once and for all but, I would be willing to bet my house that neither player will produce enough errors to actually change the sound quality. And, given a clean CD, I'll be extremely surprised if either player produces a single solitary error.

Can you 100% say if there is no errors or limited errors with both players , there could be no other factors that could make one player sound better than the other..?.. Hifi equipment is much complicated than that.. I have been recording music in music studios for 15years & still some stuff i still dnt understand why so eupiment sound better than others but they just do. Cause I use my ears, & yes blind tested.

 

[BronC]

As I tried to explain earlier playing a CD does not play "bit perfect" music. It is only as good as the transfer software allows.

Try putting a music CD into your computer and open it in Explorer. You see that the sizes of the track files are small. If you copy them you just get a pointer back to the cd. The only way of copying the actual music onto your PC is to use "rip" software. This does not "play" the track on the CD but uses other techniques to get at the data.

As stated above not all rip programmes are as good as one another - they are only as good as the software progammers.

This is exactly the same as why there are differences in transporters - it comes down to the software.

The only way to get "bit perfect" music is to cut out the music CD and down load the actual files from the electronic master files. Funnily enough you can then copy that data file as a data file onto a CD-ROM and transfer that perfectly!!

 

[Craig M.]

There is robust error correction built into CDs themselves. Benchmark Media have tested lots of CD players as transports and found them all to be bit-perfect. They also found all the dvd players they tested were bit-perfect with 16/44.1. Getting bit-perfect streams from a CD/DVD player is a non issue.

This is worth reading for anyone concerned they may be getting different results from computer rips.

 

[BronC]

Craig - I think that is only true with perfect clean CDs out of the box. A bit like old records -they dont stay that way for long!!

 

[Ambrose]

The way I approach HIFI even if evryone says this is the best bargin HIFI in history I will not believe it untill i have a listen for myself. Then & only then will i come to a conclusion. I think this is the problem, most people say things cause others say it, & not really finding out for themself first. Thats the nature of man. The trick is dnt let any theory or any review fool you. Just use them as a guide then make up ur own bloody mind .. I think thats one reason why God gave us ears..?

Phew :wall:

[/quote]

Wise words here! Nothing is better than deciding for yourself, but hey, why not be a little open minded and try for yourself.

Next people will be saying DACs don't change the sound! Must be magic dust spinkled on during manufacture.

For me, I certainly didn't envisage how damn good streaming through Squeezebox would be, even more after adding Rega Dac & improving my power supplies to each unit (excluding amp). I think perhaps transports do make a difference and agree this is one reason why Linn have stopped making CD players and not just for just convenience of access to music.

 

[BronC]

I agree with the sentiments above.

I have pasted below a link to the cyrus web site which gives an explanation of their "SE" CD drives and why they are better. Its worth wading through the initial sales talk and looking at their description of actually how an audio CD works.

http://www.cyrusaudio.com/faq-what-is-servo-evolution

Transports do make a difference

I rest my case

 

[Craig M.]

I agree with the sentiments above.

I have pasted below a link to the cyrus web site which gives an explanation of their "SE" CD drives and why they are better. Its worth wading through the initial sales talk and looking at their description of actually how an audio CD works.

http://www.cyrusaudio.com/faq-what-is-servo-evolution

Transports do make a difference

I rest my case

Your case is that Cyrus's transport makes a difference, no-one elses. And unless they can do better than bit-perfect, theirs doesn't make a difference over other bit-perfect transports. I think you might need to pick your case up again.

 

[Native_bon]

BronC, there is no need to see sense with some It happens in all aspects of life. :shhh: You dn't need to prove to anyone. Phew!!

 

[BronC]

Native_bon - wise words indeed

 

[ReValveiT]

HiFi hocus-pocus is alive and well.

 

[shafesk]

This. Also, to agree with the earlier poster, I don't believe streaming sounds any better or different than using a competent cdp as a transport. This is based on both the theory and my own experience.

Streaming does sound different even when connected to the same dac, my apple tv sounds quite bad compared to my airport express which in turn sounds worse than my Marantz cd63KI all via my dacmagic and I'm not even bringing proper hi-fi streamers to the equation here.

Thanks for putting me straight. That, quite obviously, is your opinion. Mine is different. This is were ab/x tests have the upper hand, opinion is removed, it comes down to what you can actually hear - not what you think you can hear. Audiophiles don't like them of course, because a lot of what they think turns out rather different.

[/quote]

You are entitled to your opinion just like I am my friend and I respect that. Many believe in ab/x tests and in my experience they don't work for me....I prefer to live with components in my own room first. Many have said that all amplifiers sound the same in ab/x but a lot of us know that isn't the case in real life. Like I said, just my opinion.

 

[crusaderlord]

Personally i cant get too bothered with error correction stats. I have both a CD and streaming set up, both sound great but equally there is a difference, my streamer is arguably a tad cleaner and more analytical for want of a better description but my CD is more musical somehow.

I just think a CD player, if built well with the requisite testing and listening during development is built to make a transport and dac gell together well and present in a certain way (which a listener will either love or not). With separate and mixed transports and DAC's the result is more untested and open to different results - could be better or worse than a CD.

If i really had to choose to keep one i would keep my CD as it is simply nicer to listen to overall.

 

[Anonymous]

lol, quite heavy they be...im far too stingy to pay the postage! however if your ever near hastings? come and have a listen.i have beer.... :beer: it is very strange the difference in the machines through my dac.....i dont think error correction would make the music so much more emotionally involving? i put my toshiba dvd thru the dac...sounded bad! my marantz 6000ose thru the dac..sounded nice my flash sony thru the dac..sounded nice..the roksan i guess was the better one? it sounded so digital...but the old mission..is so much better! its much closer to my vinyl..,my friend has a quad cd player im going to take the mission and compare them side by side...thru the dac using the same coax cable..

 

[CnoEvil]

lol, quite heavy they be...im far too stingy to pay the postage! however if your ever near hastings? come and have a listen.i have beer.... :beer: it is very strange the difference in the machines through my dac.....i dont think error correction would make the music so much more emotionally involving? i put my toshiba dvd thru the dac...sounded bad! my marantz 6000ose thru the dac..sounded nice my flash sony thru the dac..sounded nice..the roksan i guess was the better one? it sounded so digital...but the old mission..is so much better! its much closer to my vinyl..,my friend has a quad cd player im going to take the mission and compare them side by side...thru the dac using the same coax cable..

At least you're not alone: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/dacs/benchmark-dac1