Why can some people tell the difference and some cannot?

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idc wrote:

gained from others generosity in being to upgrade my hifi during
that time.


I did read the rest of the post IDC. and whilst im sure you have a point. When I read

two forum members, one saying a new rack made allt he difference, the other saying they dont think it did. I often wonder if they are both right. because one of thems kit

is able to show that difference and the others just isnt capable of it. could it be that your upgrading has played a part?
 
What about.....

"natural" product variation.

Without decrying those who can/cannot hear a difference, has anyone done any "blind" testing of two supposedly identical products?

In WHF sometimes we see a product lose stars when it is re-tested. Is that because the competition moved on or because of variance within the products (think of all the debate over back-light/clouding).

How about blind testing two "identical" versions of a respected product, CD or Amp to see if the experts can hear a difference. Has it been done? I think it should be.

You'd have do do it on a day when they weren't expecting it, to avoid any bias/pre-conception.
 
visionary:

How about blind testing two "identical" versions of a respected product, CD or Amp to see if the experts can hear a difference. Has it been done? I think it should be.

You'd have do do it on a day when they weren't expecting it, to avoid any bias/pre-conception.

I think when it comes to amps/speakers or cdp's, it is very easy to hear huge differences, so blind testing is not really necessary ... I have a few old amps and cdp's and differences are huge ...

however, when it comes to cables, differences are minute, so blind testing may be appropriate, as the name/price could have a psycological effect on whoever is auditioning
 
and of course theres no difference in digital cables as the technology denies this
emotion-1.gif


i agree about blind testing providing its done stringently as in no discussion between people until their written conclusions have been given to whoever is conducting the test
 
dim_span:visionary:

How about blind testing two "identical" versions of a respected product, CD or Amp to see if the experts can hear a difference. Has it been done? I think it should be.

You'd have do do it on a day when they weren't expecting it, to avoid any bias/pre-conception.

I think when it comes to amps/speakers or cdp's, it is very easy to hear huge differences, so blind testing is not really necessary ... I have a few old amps and cdp's and differences are huge ...

however, when it comes to cables, differences are minute, so blind testing may be appropriate, as the name/price could have a psycological effect on whoever is auditioning

yes but my point was that there might be a difference between, for example, two different Roksan Kandy K2 amps out of different production runs so it wouldn't be huge diifferences - in theory there should be no difference and that was the point of my post
 
Ken McBlain:

ElectroMan:

Audiophiles - are they related to music lovers at all?
emotion-5.gif


How to tell: would you rather listen to

a) a brand new album you've never heard before; or

b) an old favourite with a new tweak in your system?

Music lovers will answer a, audiophiles will answer b.
emotion-4.gif


I voted 'A'. But I am an audiophile as well because my hobby is hifi.
 
sorry idc your instantly disqualified from the ranks of the audiophiles because you dont have a turntable nor speakers and your equipment didnt cost £3000 as a minimum
 
one off:sorry idc your instantly disqualified from the ranks of the audiophiles because you dont have a turntable nor speakers and your equipment didnt cost £3000 as a minimum

A while back there was a thread on "how much have you sepnt on hifi?" The average spend was about £2500. So there are very few audiophiles here, just a lot of music lovers.
 
seriously you should try vinyl its really what this hobby is all about especially if you like the prog rock genre much of which started life on vinyl

digital still doesnt cut it for the true audiophile
 
I appreciate the suggestion one off but, I am not going to spend money switching to the 5th format I will have used since starting with vinyl. I dont have the space. I would have great difficulty sourcing obscure Scandinavian prog at anything like a reasonable price. The music is more important than ultimate sound quality.
 
but with vinyl you get both

actually you dont with all its crackles and pops its just an inherently more listenable medium and closer to live concerts
 
"Audiophile". Eurgh! *shudders*.

I'm not sure the answers to the proposed questions will show what you think they will anyway. I'd pick neither. Really, id rather listen to what i know ill like, whether tweaked or not, on whatever system (within reason. I mean, come on...).

This may mean I'm boring and predictable but doesnt necassarily say im not an audiophile. An audiophile wants to listen to the kit, whether they like the music is probably secondary, tho it may be preferable that they be familiar with it, or they wouldnt be able to judge whether one, say, CDP is more audiophile than another.
 
leenorris78:

I wish I could go back to blissful ignorance.

I suppose its like the eskimo's. They have X number of words for different types of snow. WHAT? X number of words for different types of snow? But snow is snow? Surely!

The Innuit do have X number of words for snow, where X is about 12, the same as English speakers. That they have hundreds of words for snow is a popular urban myth.

"Contrary to popular belief, the Eskimos do not have more words for snow than do speakers of English," according to linguist Steven Pinker in his book The Language Instinct. "Counting generously, experts can come up with about a dozen."
 
another example is the amount of words for yam in some pacific languages where because it was so important for the culture there is a separate word to describe different stages of yam growth
 
one off:
seriously you should try vinyl its really what this hobby is all about especially if you like the prog rock genre much of which started life on vinyl

digital still doesnt cut it for the true audiophile

Do you enjoy annoying other persons on the site? It's fine that you don't like digital... but I find it really silly to insult the non-vinyl crowd...
 
am i not allowed an opinion even though it may not agree with yours

and i wasnt being serious either just poking gentle fun at the whole audiophile thing
 
Ken McBlain:
ElectroMan:

Audiophiles - are they related to music lovers at all?
emotion-5.gif


How to tell: would you rather listen to

a) a brand new album you've never heard before; or

b) an old favourite with a new tweak in your system?

Music lovers will answer a, audiophiles will answer b.
emotion-4.gif


Depends on what mood I'm in.... Sometimes I'm more hardcore audiophile than music lover... and other times I'm all about the music
 
one off:
am i not allowed an opinion even though it may not agree with yours

and i wasnt being serious either just poking gentle fun at the whole audiophile thing

Of course you're allowed an opinion (as long as you keep it to yourself - kidding)....

Sorry about that, I took your post about Digital not cutting it seriously... my mistake
 
no problems id have added one of those smiley things but im not very good with them

thanks
 
Perhaps this is said before in this thread, but it can't be said too often:

Of course experience makes it easier to judge, and getting familiar with a certain component we might discover subtleties we might not recognize right away.

But:

1: There isn't such a thing as an exact memory of sound. Unless two sources are switch immediately, we are simply not able to compare the sound. What we compare, is our memory of the sound.
2: Changes in the acoustic environment will outdo any other changes anytime. If your speakers are moved only sightly, or even if you turn or move your head, the sound that reaches your ears will change.
3: Our expectations and prejudices influence our judgement. If we believe a cable to be better, chances are it sound better to us. Or it might be the other way: Because we can't really hear the improvement we expected, we believe the sound to be poorer.

The human hearing is not comparable to technological measurement. While different meters can do very accurate measurements of single aspects, beyond what's audible to the human ear, no meter can mimic the human mind's registration and processing of various simultaneous inputs. Still, every bit of information that's physical can be registered individually by a meter, and calculated according to the laws of physics. So even if it's impossible to measure 'what we hear', what's not measurable is not audible, in the physical sense.

Therefor, if someone claims to hear a difference between components (like cables) that should not, according to physics, cause any difference, the obvious reasons are that 1, the time elapsed between listening to the two samples was more than a few seconds; thus a real comparison actually never took place -- 2, the physical relation between the listener's ears and the sound source were changed -- and 3, the listener was biased in some way or other.

There's more than enough tests by now, to prove that alleged differences between cables vanishes, even for trained ears, when the aspects mentioned above are controlled. What's more, there's tests showing that people easily hear differences between two identical samples, if they believe them to be different.
 
Fahnsen:
Perhaps this is said before in this thread, but it can't be said too often:

Of course experience makes it easier to judge, and getting familiar with a certain component we might discover subtleties we might not recognize right away.

But:

1: There isn't such a thing as an exact memory of sound. Unless two sources are switch immediately, we are simply not able to compare the sound. What we compare, is our memory of the sound.
2: Changes in the acoustic environment will outdo any other changes anytime. If your speakers are moved only sightly, or even if you turn or move your head, the sound that reaches your ears will change.
3: Our expectations and prejudices influence our judgement. If we believe a cable to be better, chances are it sound better to us. Or it might be the other way: Because we can't really hear the improvement we expected, we believe the sound to be poorer.

The human hearing is not comparable to technological measurement. While different meters can do very accurate measurements of single aspects, beyond what's audible to the human ear, no meter can mimic the human mind's registration and processing of various simultaneous inputs. Still, every bit of information that's physical can be registered individually by a meter, and calculated according to the laws of physics. So even if it's impossible to measure 'what we hear', what's not measurable is not audible, in the physical sense.

Therefor, if someone claims to hear a difference between components (like cables) that should not, according to physics, cause any difference, the obvious reasons are that 1, the time elapsed between listening to the two samples was more than a few seconds; thus a real comparison actually never took place -- 2, the physical relation between the listener's ears and the sound source were changed -- and 3, the listener was biased in some way or other.

There's more than enough tests by now, to prove that alleged differences between cables vanishes, even for trained ears, when the aspects mentioned above are controlled. What's more, there's tests showing that people easily hear differences between two identical samples, if they believe them to be different.

Hmmm.... the problem with talking about DBT is that DBT has NEVER proved the non-one can hear differences... What it shows is that when they average out all the persons tested, the result was a failure to hear differences... But there were still participants who passed the test... For example, 2 Reviewers at a major North American Hi-Fi Mag took part in a blind test and 1 got 4/5 correct and the other got 5/5... But based on the average result for the test it was concluded that no-one can tell the differences... Which is silly considering that the 2 experts in the test both passed...

Also, you might want to check out the measurements being done by Nordhost (I believe) that claims to show the differences in cables etc...

A possibility that measurement Gurus always neglect is that just because the "existing" tests don't identify differences, doesn't mean that using different kinds of test might not show differences... So for example, two amps might measure identically in a frequency response test, but be very different in a distortion test... So as Nordhost seeks to prove: the existing testing methods may well be inadequate...

The world was flat until someone proved that it was round...
 
James Randi offered $1 million to anyone who could hear and prove that cables that cost $7 250 were better than ordinary monster cables ...

Randi added that if the cables could do what their maker's claimed, 'they would be paranormal'

no-one has won the $1 million

This is not Randi's first clash with audiophile reviewers who claim to hear differences between various pieces of exotic equipment. He promises a million dollars (which he has waiting in an account for them) if any can prove in double-blind scientific testing that their extraordinary claims are true. None have stepped up so far.
 
dim_span:
James Randi offered $1 million to anyone who could hear and prove that cables that cost $7 250 were better than ordinary monster cables ...

Randi added that if the cables could do what their maker's claimed, 'they would be paranormal'

no-one has won the $1 million

If I'm not mistaken, that competition was the one discussed by a reviewer at another Hi-Fi mag, where the reviewer was willing to do the test if he was allowed to bring a cable that he was familiar with (the one he uses in his own system)... He was turned down 'for fear that he might have put some kind of trigger in his cable/altered it in some way so he could cheat'... The problem being that since cable differences are small (assuming they exist) and DBT makes identifying differences even more difficult (stressful rather than relaxed atmosphere in which we normally listen to music), then participants should at least be able to use cables they are intimately familiar with...

While I've never heard a difference in cables (other than really cheap ones with intermittent signals), that doesn't mean that no differences exist... And as I've said before, none of the DBT have proved that differences don't exist.... Randi's test just shows that no one has passed it so far....
 

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