Why a dedicated CD player?? I hear zero difference.

[RCduck7]

I have bought a dedicated stereo receiver a few weeks ago, a Dussun V8i and borrowed my dad's CD player (marantz CD6000OSE) and connect it with analogue interconnects as usual on source S1.

The receiver is great but i wanted to test some things out.

I wanted to hear the quality difference between digital and analogue to see how good the cd player is.

So this is what i did...

The Dussun stereo receiver doesn't have a digital connection of coursse but i connected the digital out of the CD player to my Yamaha surround receiver and then the L+R preouts of the Yamaha to the Dussun source S2.

This way i could change the source of the dussun between the CD player playing analogue and the Digital source.

I hear zero difference when i listen to a song a know well and switch between channels!! Is the dac in the CD palyer so low quality or am i missing something??

If not, i could just use a dvd player as a CD player and have the same results.

What a rip off a dedicated CD player is ike the marantz is, It was highly recommended by what hifi.

 

[Anonymous]

If you've got a Dussun V8i and you can't hear the difference between a bog-standard DVD player and a Marantz CD6000SE, then you must be running some Alba speakers on that system...

 

[Andrew Everard]

Haven't heard the amp you refer to - it's an amp, not a receiver, BTW - but if it's not good enough to show that the Marantz alone sounds better than the same player run through a surround receiver, then it's probably not as revealing as one might want. What speakers are you using?

 

[RCduck7]

I first thought that my current speakers, wharfedale EVO 30 weren't up to the job with an amp like the Dussun V8i... maybe overkill.

And i admit the EVO 30 speakers can't let the amp truly shine, almost an insult to connect an amp on these.

Don't get me wrong, wharfedale is great value.

But i went to a friend's house who has B&W 802 nautilus speakers and had equipment like Rotel and now NAD.

I brought the Dussun with me as he was eager to hear it on his speakers, he has a pair of good trained ears and know his favorite songs well.

He was immediatly convinced the Dussun did his speakers sing like never before, powerfull, detailed very fast, controlled and a fantastic midrange.

But he also wanted to test the waters with the CD player and... the same old story.

He had trouble spotting differences between the CD's DAC and digital out.

Today, the Cambridge DacMagic i ordered arrived and i can hear little subtle improvements over the CD player but not very much.

I guess with a high end amp like the Dussun you really have a pricey high end cd player to match it to hear significant improvements??

PS: For those who don't know Dussun, maybe "Mark Levinson" and "Red Rose" might ring a bell, they are the same.

Some links...

http://www.dussun.com/english/v8.html

http://www.aaa-audio.com/index-bfs-v8i.htm

http://www.fairaudio.de/test/vollverstaerker-dussun-v8i-1.html

 

[Anonymous]

RCduck7:And i admit the EVO 30 speakers can't let the amp truly shine, almost an insult to connect an amp on these.

Don't be cruel - my EVO2 30s are some of the best speakers available, especially when you consider the price! Infact, I would go as far as to say they are better than your Dussun if you can't hear the difference between the DACmagic and it as standard!

 

[RCduck7]

Hughes123:RCduck7:And i admit the EVO 30 speakers can't let the amp truly shine, almost an insult to connect an amp on these. Don't be cruel - my EVO2 30s are some of the best speakers available, especially when you consider the price! Infact, I would go as far as to say they are better than your Dussun if you can't hear the difference between the DACmagic and it as standard!

I'm sorry, i didn't meant to be cruel... and i can't afford let's say my friend's B&W nautillus speakers in an instant like that. But to close the door on very high quality kit like Mark Levinson, which is Dussun (you clearly haven't seen the link with the pictures inside the amp) and maybe others.

Me and the other who has the B&W speakers (which i mentioned in my previous post) was very impressed when hearing the Dussun versus Rotel and NAD.

But of coursse as always the match between speakers/source and amp has to click which can go wrong sometimes.

It seems like you want to ignore there is always better stuff, even if you can't afford it.

I'm very glad you enjoy your kit and maybe you should stick with it and not look for possibly further upgrades for peace of mind.

 

[Anonymous]

RCduck7:Hughes123:RCduck7:And i admit the EVO 30 speakers can't let the amp truly shine, almost an insult to connect an amp on these. Don't be cruel - my EVO2 30s are some of the best speakers available, especially when you consider the price! Infact, I would go as far as to say they are better than your Dussun if you can't hear the difference between the DACmagic and it as standard!

I'm sorry, i didn't meant to be cruel... and i can't afford let's say my friend's B&W nautillus speakers in an instant like that. But to close the door on very high quality kit like Mark Levinson, which is Dussun (you clearly haven't seen the link with the pictures inside the amp) and maybe others.

Me and the other who has the B&W speakers (which i mentioned in my previous post) was very impressed when hearing the Dussun versus Rotel and NAD.

But of coursse as always the match between speakers/source and amp has to click which can go wrong sometimes.

It seems like you want to ignore there is always better stuff, even if you can't afford it.

I'm very glad you enjoy your kit and maybe you should stick with it and not look for possibly further upgrades for peace of mind.

Sorry, I was being a bit cruel myself! I wouldn't say that I ignore high-end stuff, my bedroom is littered with the high-end equipment I can afford: Vintage hi-fi!!!

If you could show us a picture of the inside of the amp, I'm sure we would be very greatful! I've never seen any Dussun/Mark Lev. equipment inside!

 

[Ajani]

RCduck7:Hughes123:RCduck7:And i admit the EVO 30 speakers can't let the amp truly shine, almost an insult to connect an amp on these. Don't be cruel - my EVO2 30s are some of the best speakers available, especially when you consider the price! Infact, I would go as far as to say they are better than your Dussun if you can't hear the difference between the DACmagic and it as standard!

I'm sorry, i didn't meant to be cruel... and i can't afford let's say my friend's B&W nautillus speakers in an instant like that. But to close the door on very high quality kit like Mark Levinson, which is Dussun (you clearly haven't seen the link with the pictures inside the amp) and maybe others.

Me and the other who has the B&W speakers (which i mentioned in my previous post) was very impressed when hearing the Dussun versus Rotel and NAD.

But of coursse as always the match between speakers/source and amp has to click which can go wrong sometimes.

It seems like you want to ignore there is always better stuff, even if you can't afford it.

I'm very glad you enjoy your kit and maybe you should stick with it and not look for possibly further upgrades for peace of mind.

Which NAD & Rotel amps were you comparing the Dussun to? NAD and Rotel make everything from the cheapest entry level gear to mid-priced stuff... so if you did a comparison to their bottom of the line gear and found the Dussun better, that really doesn't say much...

I do tend to question the purpose of a cheap dedicated CD player, as I find they only provide subtle improvements to the sound on the kind of amp and speakers you are likely to partner them with... For the price of an entry level CD player, I'd rather have a Squeezebox...

 

[matthewpiano]

RCduck7:Hughes123:RCduck7:And i admit the EVO 30 speakers can't let the amp truly shine, almost an insult to connect an amp on these. Don't be cruel - my EVO2 30s are some of the best speakers available, especially when you consider the price! Infact, I would go as far as to say they are better than your Dussun if you can't hear the difference between the DACmagic and it as standard!

I'm sorry, i didn't meant to be cruel... and i can't afford let's say my friend's B&W nautillus speakers in an instant like that. But to close the door on very high quality kit like Mark Levinson, which is Dussun (you clearly haven't seen the link with the pictures inside the amp) and maybe others.

Me and the other who has the B&W speakers (which i mentioned in my previous post) was very impressed when hearing the Dussun versus Rotel and NAD.

But of coursse as always the match between speakers/source and amp has to click which can go wrong sometimes.

It seems like you want to ignore there is always better stuff, even if you can't afford it.

I'm very glad you enjoy your kit and maybe you should stick with it and not look for possibly further upgrades for peace of mind.

As Hughes123 clearly hasn't heard the Dussun I don't think he is really in a position to comment on it in such a way.

I haven't heard the Dussun either so can't comment on its qualities, but it does seem clear to me that an upgrade of speakers would be in order at some point. Speakers which are good in their price point can still strangle more expensive electronics. I had some Wharfedale 9.1s that I know are very good speakers but they completely strangled the abilities of my new Denon kit. The BR2s do the Denons much more justice and I'm sure a future upgrade to MA RS1s would bring even more to the table.

 

[Anonymous]

matthewpiano:

As Hughes123 clearly hasn't heard the Dussun I don't think he is really in a position to comment on it in such a way.

What a contentious, pretentious, arrogant and ignorant thing to say: I've heard the V8i FOUR times before on FOUR seperate systems! How? Because my uncle imports Mark Levinson gear and as Dussun are ML's OEM supplier, he has to deal with them constantly. He said I could have one for £500, but I said no after hearing it, as yes it may have lots and lots of power, but personally it's not anywhere near as good as my Arcam.

So "clearly", Hughes123 has heard the amplifier and hence I am in a position to comment on it in such a way. Just because I'm younger than you doesn't mean that I am niave enough to throw comments about equipment about the place that I have not heard.

I do appologise, RCduck7, for this.

 

[RCduck7]

matthewpiano:RCduck7:Hughes123:RCduck7:And i admit the EVO 30 speakers can't let the amp truly shine, almost an insult to connect an amp on these. Don't be cruel - my EVO2 30s are some of the best speakers available, especially when you consider the price! Infact, I would go as far as to say they are better than your Dussun if you can't hear the difference between the DACmagic and it as standard!

I'm sorry, i didn't meant to be cruel... and i can't afford let's say my friend's B&W nautillus speakers in an instant like that. But to close the door on very high quality kit like Mark Levinson, which is Dussun (you clearly haven't seen the link with the pictures inside the amp) and maybe others.

Me and the other who has the B&W speakers (which i mentioned in my previous post) was very impressed when hearing the Dussun versus Rotel and NAD.

But of coursse as always the match between speakers/source and amp has to click which can go wrong sometimes.

It seems like you want to ignore there is always better stuff, even if you can't afford it.

I'm very glad you enjoy your kit and maybe you should stick with it and not look for possibly further upgrades for peace of mind.

As Hughes123 clearly hasn't heard the Dussun I don't think he is really in a position to comment on it in such a way. I haven't heard the Dussun either so can't comment on its qualities, but it does seem clear to me that an upgrade of speakers would be in order at some point. Speakers which are good in their price point can still strangle more expensive electronics. I had some Wharfedale 9.1s that I know are very good speakers but they completely strangled the abilities of my new Denon kit. The BR2s do the Denons much more justice and I'm sure a future upgrade to MA RS1s would bring even more to the table.

I also, like you started with wharfedale diamonds, but after my first small "Mission" speaker package with subw.

Then i upgraded to the evolution series, but it feels like my speakers are on the limit of what they can do.

Allthough i'm very pleased with how they sound, even after hearing the B&W Nautilus, i have to upgrade/replace my speakers sooner or later to make the most of my system.

I think i'm gonna listen again to the digital versus analogue connection on the CD player.

Maybe i'm expecting to much and i might overlooked (or overheared ;-)) subtle differences in the sound.

Either way, the Dussun's dedicated stereo amp was a real eyeopener on my wharfedale speakers in comparison with my previous yamaha surround receiver, only the CD player hasn't convinced me.

 

[matthewpiano]

Hughes123:matthewpiano:

As Hughes123 clearly hasn't heard the Dussun I don't think he is really in a position to comment on it in such a way.

What a contentious, pretentious, arrogant and ignorant thing to say: I've heard the V8i FOUR times before on FOUR seperate systems! How? Because my uncle imports Mark Levinson gear and as Dussun are ML's OEM supplier, he has to deal with them constantly. He said I could have one for £500, but I said no after hearing it, as yes it may have lots and lots of power, but personally it's not anywhere near as good as my Arcam.

So "clearly", Hughes123 has heard the amplifier and hence I am in a position to comment on it in such a way. Just because I'm younger than you doesn't mean that I am niave enough to throw comments about equipment about the place that I have not heard.

I do appologise, RCduck7, for this.

With all due respect Hughes, your comments about the Wharfedales being 'better' than the Dussun and lack of any description of the actual sound of the Dussun, didn't exactly give the impression that you knew the equipment in question. No offence intended, and absolutely no need for your explosive response. To be honest I am biting my lip a little bit here with the word 'pretentious' being bandied around. In the interests of peace on the forum I will continue to bite my lip as perhaps you should have done.

 

[RCduck7]

You have ervery right to say you don't like the sound of the receiver if you heard it in ideal acoustic circumstances and not just standing there in a shop, you can't please everybody no matter what receiver it is.

Some like it very much, others don't.

Like with every receiver or particular sound there are reviewers who rave it and others that brake it.

The Dussun is recommended with laidback and warm speakers, with bright and forward speakers it can sound a bit to forcefull, to detailed.

PS: You can try a tube pre-amp on the power amp part of the Dussun if nessecary.

 

[Anonymous]

matthewpiano:Hughes123:matthewpiano:

As Hughes123 clearly hasn't heard the Dussun I don't think he is really in a position to comment on it in such a way.

What a contentious, pretentious, arrogant and ignorant thing to say: I've heard the V8i FOUR times before on FOUR seperate systems! How? Because my uncle imports Mark Levinson gear and as Dussun are ML's OEM supplier, he has to deal with them constantly. He said I could have one for £500, but I said no after hearing it, as yes it may have lots and lots of power, but personally it's not anywhere near as good as my Arcam.

So "clearly", Hughes123 has heard the amplifier and hence I am in a position to comment on it in such a way. Just because I'm younger than you doesn't mean that I am niave enough to throw comments about equipment about the place that I have not heard.

I do appologise, RCduck7, for this.

With all due respect Hughes, your comments about the Wharfedales being 'better' than the Dussun and lack of any description of the actual sound of the Dussun, didn't exactly give the impression that you knew the equipment in question. No offence intended, and absolutely no need for your explosive response. To be honest I am biting my lip a little bit here with the word 'pretentious' being bandied around. In the interests of peace on the forum I will continue to bite my lip as perhaps you should have done.

Right: The Dussun: A nice clean sound; nice deep bass but a bit slow; plenty of mid-range presence; the treble is the high point, clean and never strays into harshness. The soundstage is a bit poor however and doesn't really have any depth. Has quite a "weighty" feel in summery.

The Wharfedales: A warmish sound; very deep bass and not at all slow; midrange is amazing, clarity and accuracy of timbre is the best in class; the treble however can get a little out of hand sometimes with lots of power and they can interfere with the room in the sub-60Hz bass; incredible slam though to the bass; detail galore for two&half way floorstanders. Have a "musical" sound in summery.

 

[Thaiman]

Not just your Marantz and Dussun but many budget CD players/DAC sound pretty much the same However I bet you could hear some different with Top quality amp and speakers....may be just, certainly not enough for you to pick the winner

 

[RCduck7]

Hughes123:RCduck7:Hughes123:RCduck7:And i admit the EVO 30 speakers can't let the amp truly shine, almost an insult to connect an amp on these. Don't be cruel - my EVO2 30s are some of the best speakers available, especially when you consider the price! Infact, I would go as far as to say they are better than your Dussun if you can't hear the difference between the DACmagic and it as standard!

I'm sorry, i didn't meant to be cruel... and i can't afford let's say my friend's B&W nautillus speakers in an instant like that. But to close the door on very high quality kit like Mark Levinson, which is Dussun (you clearly haven't seen the link with the pictures inside the amp) and maybe others.

Me and the other who has the B&W speakers (which i mentioned in my previous post) was very impressed when hearing the Dussun versus Rotel and NAD.

But of coursse as always the match between speakers/source and amp has to click which can go wrong sometimes.

It seems like you want to ignore there is always better stuff, even if you can't afford it.

I'm very glad you enjoy your kit and maybe you should stick with it and not look for possibly further upgrades for peace of mind.

Sorry, I was being a bit cruel myself! I wouldn't say that I ignore high-end stuff, my bedroom is littered with the high-end equipment I can afford: Vintage hi-fi!!!
If you could show us a picture of the inside of the amp, I'm sure we would be very greatful! I've never seen any Dussun/Mark Lev. equipment inside!

Here a few pics on this forum post 4

http://www.visaton.de/vb/showthread.php?threadid=13891

And a review with pics...

http://www.dagogo.com/DussunV8i.htm

http://www.fairaudio.de/test/vollverstaerker-dussun-v8i-2.html

And dynaudio's best top of the line speakers who noone can afford proudly playing on a Dussun on a show...

http://www.highendpalace.com/2006_STEREOPHILE_Show_in_LA_II.htm

(scroll down)

 

[RCduck7]

Ajani:RCduck7:Hughes123:RCduck7:And i admit the EVO 30 speakers can't let the amp truly shine, almost an insult to connect an amp on these. Don't be cruel - my EVO2 30s are some of the best speakers available, especially when you consider the price! Infact, I would go as far as to say they are better than your Dussun if you can't hear the difference between the DACmagic and it as standard!

I'm sorry, i didn't meant to be cruel... and i can't afford let's say my friend's B&W nautillus speakers in an instant like that. But to close the door on very high quality kit like Mark Levinson, which is Dussun (you clearly haven't seen the link with the pictures inside the amp) and maybe others.

Me and the other who has the B&W speakers (which i mentioned in my previous post) was very impressed when hearing the Dussun versus Rotel and NAD.

But of coursse as always the match between speakers/source and amp has to click which can go wrong sometimes.

It seems like you want to ignore there is always better stuff, even if you can't afford it.

I'm very glad you enjoy your kit and maybe you should stick with it and not look for possibly further upgrades for peace of mind.

Which NAD & Rotel amps were you comparing the Dussun to? NAD and Rotel make everything from the cheapest entry level gear to mid-priced stuff... so if you did a comparison to their bottom of the line gear and found the Dussun better, that really doesn't say much...

I do tend to question the purpose of a cheap dedicated CD player, as I find they only provide subtle improvements to the sound on the kind of amp and speakers you are likely to partner them with... For the price of an entry level CD player, I'd rather have a Squeezebox...

Not sure what type rotel and NAD he had but he always buys a seperate pre and power amp.

Surely not entry level and his NAD is about 1 year old now.

 

[RCduck7]

Thaiman:

Not just your Marantz and Dussun but many budget CD players/DAC sound pretty much the same However I bet you could hear some different with Top quality amp and speakers....may be just, certainly not enough for you to pick the winner

That sounds reasonable, the marantz wasn't exactly top of the line and the Dacmagic that fairs a bit better is also 200£.

My dad's marantz PM7200 stereo amp and cd player sounds pretty good though the KEF Q9 speakers.

I think the KEF Q9 3 way speaker is a step higher then the wharfedale EVO 30's.

Maybe i can persuade my dad to borrow his marantz PM7200 also (if he will let me) to compare this one also with the Dussun.

I think that would be enough proof of Dussun being a very good amp if it sounds a lot better then the PM7200.

And while i'm at it in can also connect the Dussun to the KEF speakers.

But it won't be this weekend becausse i'm going on a trip then.

 

[RCduck7]

Hughes123:matthewpiano:Hughes123:matthewpiano: As Hughes123 clearly hasn't heard the Dussun I don't think he is really in a position to comment on it in such a way.

What a contentious, pretentious, arrogant and ignorant thing to say: I've heard the V8i FOUR times before on FOUR seperate systems! How? Because my uncle imports Mark Levinson gear and as Dussun are ML's OEM supplier, he has to deal with them constantly. He said I could have one for £500, but I said no after hearing it, as yes it may have lots and lots of power, but personally it's not anywhere near as good as my Arcam.
So "clearly", Hughes123 has heard the amplifier and hence I am in a position to comment on it in such a way. Just because I'm younger than you doesn't mean that I am niave enough to throw comments about equipment about the place that I have not heard.
I do appologise, RCduck7, for this. With all due respect Hughes, your comments about the Wharfedales being 'better' than the Dussun and lack of any description of the actual sound of the Dussun, didn't exactly give the impression that you knew the equipment in question. No offence intended, and absolutely no need for your explosive response. To be honest I am biting my lip a little bit here with the word 'pretentious' being bandied around. In the interests of peace on the forum I will continue to bite my lip as perhaps you should have done.
Right: The Dussun: A nice clean sound; nice deep bass but a bit slow; plenty of mid-range presence; the treble is the high point, clean and never strays into harshness. The soundstage is a bit poor however and doesn't really have any depth. Has quite a "weighty" feel in summery.
The Wharfedales: A warmish sound; very deep bass and not at all slow; midrange is amazing, clarity and accuracy of timbre is the best in class; the treble however can get a little out of hand sometimes with lots of power and they can interfere with the room in the sub-60Hz bass; incredible slam though to the bass; detail galore for two&half way floorstanders. Have a "musical" sound in summery.

Sorry for the many replies at the same time... while i do agree on what you mention about wharfedale there are 2 things about the Dussun you say that i feel as the opposite to me.

You describe it as being slow while in many reviews they mention it is very fast reacting amp, i feel this also.The Jungson, an other exotic amp i was also considering to buy when i didn't went for the Dussun, that one is slow.

The soundstage is another, i don't know in what room or circumstances you did listen but i found the soundstage very open compared to many amps. With most amps i heard the sweetspot was very narrow while with the dussun i had the feeling that i was still in a sweetspot when i went a bit left or right from my listeningposition.

On the end of the day you can read many different opinions regarding taste, good/bad equipment choice for your gear or most of all no to ideal room acoustics for listening.

I experienced speakers sounding astonishing in one room and lost and awfull in an other.

 

[RCduck7]

EDITED BY MODS - no trading, please.

 

[the record spot]

Hughes123:

What a contentious, pretentious, arrogant and ignorant thing to say...

Oh behave. No it wasn't, and this is an overreaction IMO.

 

[Anonymous]

i dont get it, what has this thread got to do with the thread title? the need or relevance of a dedicated standalone cdp has little if anything to do with whether you can hear a difference between an entry level cd players analogue output and its digital output via a HTR into budget speakers.
maybe you need to specify your question more clearly.

BTW did you use a digital interconnect when testing the dig output?

 

[RCduck7]

ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit:i dont get it, what has this thread got to do with the thread title? the need or relevance of a dedicated standalone cdp has little if anything to do with whether you can hear a difference between an entry level cd players analogue output and its digital output via a HTR into budget speakers.
maybe you need to specify your question more clearly.
BTW did you use a digital interconnect when testing the dig output?

Yes, but to get digital to connect to my stereo amp i first had to use the preouts on m surround receiver that accepts digital sources and then the preouts were used to get it to the stereo amp.

But since then me and a friend tested this CD player and a Cambridge DacMagic in many ways and we can't hear a difference.

See this thread, post made about 15 minutes before this one...

http://whathifi.com/forums/p/169482/170839.aspx#170839

 

[Anonymous]

I have to say I don't get it either. Ok you've got a monster integrated amp I get that part.

All this stuff about how you connected stuff up leaves me baffled.

First off - for the amp you've got you need some equally good speakers to go with it. (I know good is a subjective term but they have to sound good to your ears and be capable of exploiting your amps capabilities)

As to inputs - well most CD players have a digital out which bypasses the inbuilt DAC. Your most obvious route to do a comparision is to use this digital out into an external DAC and use the DAC's analogue out into your Dussun. You can also wire your CD players analogue out into you Dussun then you can flick between the 2 with a single button press.

At the end of the day if the DAC in your CD player is quite a good one why would you expect to haer an improvement by using an external DAC? Also if your speakers are the limiting factor you won't hear any difference anyway.

 

[RCduck7]

As for the CD player, i borrowed it, i don't own it, that's why i bought a dac.

And yes, i hear no difference between the seperate dacmagic and the dac in the cd player.

But what upsets me is that i don't hear a difference between the digital (that bypasses the dac) and a dac analogue with good interconnects.

The following is cut and paste from an other thread...

I'm clueless on how most people say how the dacmagic makes a difference.

A friend of mine who is really nerdy about these things was testing this dacmagic in any way posssible and can't hear a thing different about the sound on my setup "Mark Levinson Red Rose" by "Dussun" model V8i, or the setups he has.

He has B&W Nautilus 802 speakers which is about the best money can buy, high end NAD and ROTEL equipment a yamaha stereo amp in his kitchen with monitor audio's and even decent hifi in his bathroom with AE speakers.

He tested in every possible way with an older cd player analogue versus digital+dacmagic, digital versus digital+dacmagic and in many other combinations with all the equipment he has and can't hear a difference!

He managed through his laptop with wav files and managed to get 92 khz upsampling out of the unit through USB but this time the sound was a little to sharp, not so good.

He even tried with good headphones and he says it doesn't do a thing.

t's hard to believe for me and the orther guy that anyone is hearing a remarkable difference.

But also the CD player i borrowed " marantz CD6000OSE" which not be the best money can buy but should be decent isn't making a difference between digital versus analogue with a good pair of interconnects.

Very strange, i would say the hifi is to high end for this stuff to make a differnce but since he was trying it on different equipment from different price classes that doesn't hold true.

From our experience we agreed we heared very much improvement in quality with good speakers, pre amps, power amps and a good recording but not that much with kind of source we were using, either digital or dac.