WHF review , lack of transparency? Aye

[Overdose]

The real trouble is that the term is meaningless (as is "timing").

Chris

It's not meaningless, but you do need some sort of reference point to stop it becoming so.

Genuinely interested - please provide a (layman's) example / "reference point ".

Ta 🙂

IMO. Transparancy or clarity is what you get when when anything that reduces it (transparecy) is removed ie. All types of distortion, artifacts / noise introduced by elements like poor power, jitter etc etc....Nb. the effect of a room can undo transparancy.

IMO. Well designed streamers are often more transparent than CDPs (at the same price point); some NOS Dacs (eg Audio Note) achieve it; well designed SS Class A amps can be more transparent due to the elimination of Crossover distortion; the new breed of Class D amps are looking very promising on the transparency front (Nad, Primare, Bel Canto, Devialet); certain AB amps, like Bryston.

On the speaker end, you could be looking at the Reference type monitor, like ATC, Focal, Kef Refs, B&W 800 Diamond series...also you would need to include well designed Actives here as well.

Like most other adjectives to do with describing the way hifi sounds, it's subjective...both by the person describing it and the person reading it. If benchmarks are used by the reviewer, it helps put the remarks in context and makes comparison easier.

I seem to be waffling a bit - sorry.

Not really. I'd say you were about right on the money.

 

[Covenanter]

We judge products against similarly-priced rivals. In this case the arrival of Rotel's RA-10 has raised the bar, and shown that the Marantz could be better in certain areas.

By transparency we mean the ability of the amplifier to let the music signal through unchanged.

That's clear enough but how do you know what the original "music signal" sounds like so that you can judge the extent of any "change"?

BTW perhaps you could explain "timing"?

Chris

 

[CnoEvil]

We judge products against similarly-priced rivals. In this case the arrival of Rotel's RA-10 has raised the bar, and shown that the Marantz could be better in certain areas.

By transparency we mean the ability of the amplifier to let the music signal through unchanged.

That's clear enough but how do you know what the original "music signal" sounds like so that you can judge the extent of any "change"?

BTW perhaps you could explain "timing"?

Chris

While waiting for a reply, this might help ie. explaining the relationship between Pace, Rhythm and Timing: http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html

 

[altruistic.lemon]

IMO. Transparancy or clarity is what you get when when anything that reduces it (transparecy) is removed ie. All types of distortion, artifacts / noise introduced by elements like poor power, jitter etc etc....Nb. the effect of a room can undo transparancy.

IMO. Well designed streamers are often more transparent than CDPs (at the same price point); some NOS Dacs (eg Audio Note) achieve it; well designed SS Class A amps can be more transparent due to the elimination of Crossover distortion; the new breed of Class D amps are looking very promising on the transparency front (Nad, Primare, Bel Canto, Devialet); certain AB amps, like Bryston.

On the speaker end, you could be looking at the Reference type monitor, like ATC, Focal, Kef Refs, B&W 800 Diamond series...also you would need to include well designed Actives here as well.

Like most other adjectives to do with describing the way hifi sounds, it's subjective...both by the person describing it and the person reading it. If benchmarks are used by the reviewer, it helps put the remarks in context and makes comparison easier.

I seem to be waffling a bit - sorry.

Don't follow. Haven't heard an amp or any piece of gear for that matter which introduces distortion, artifacts etc.

What would be some examples?

 

[CnoEvil]

IMO. Transparancy or clarity is what you get when when anything that reduces it (transparecy) is removed ie. All types of distortion, artifacts / noise introduced by elements like poor power, jitter etc etc....Nb. the effect of a room can undo transparancy.

IMO. Well designed streamers are often more transparent than CDPs (at the same price point); some NOS Dacs (eg Audio Note) achieve it; well designed SS Class A amps can be more transparent due to the elimination of Crossover distortion; the new breed of Class D amps are looking very promising on the transparency front (Nad, Primare, Bel Canto, Devialet); certain AB amps, like Bryston.

On the speaker end, you could be looking at the Reference type monitor, like ATC, Focal, Kef Refs, B&W 800 Diamond series...also you would need to include well designed Actives here as well.

Like most other adjectives to do with describing the way hifi sounds, it's subjective...both by the person describing it and the person reading it. If benchmarks are used by the reviewer, it helps put the remarks in context and makes comparison easier.

I seem to be waffling a bit - sorry.

Don't follow. Haven't heard an amp or any piece of gear for that matter which introduces distortion, artifacts etc.

What would be some examples?

I was talking about all the elements of a system, right the way through, from the quality of the mains power; the possible effects of RFI / EMI; to any problems in a digital source (like Jitter); to amps where for example, AB amps suffer crossover distortion; to all the problems associated with speakers (cabinet design, ports, crossovers etc).....all of which effect transparency, which is what I was asked.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Yeah, but which ones have you heard doing all this? Same with timing. does an amp really have influence on this? In fact, does any component? Can we name and shame?

 

[CnoEvil]

Yeah, but which ones have you heard doing all this? Same with timing. does an amp really have influence on this? In fact, does any component? Can we name and shame?

What's the point as it's so personal, and you only end up in a row, or upsetting someone.

It is not a shock to people on here that I like Class A and Valves, a few AB amps and even fewer Class D amps.

If you want to get a taste of the way I like an amp to sound, try to get a listen to the AMS 35i or even better Primo / AMS 50.

I'm not a great fan of the Naim sound, but they do have good PRaT.....which gives "life" to the music.

 

[manicm]

Yeah, but which ones have you heard doing all this? Same with timing. does an amp really have influence on this? In fact, does any component? Can we name and shame?

From my experience an amp or source can affect this.

 

[Overdose]

Are distortion figures not printed in most hifi product specifications?

Measurements will show distortion or artifacts, but wether or not you can actually hear and identify them is another matter entirely, which is where 'audibly transparent' comes in.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Nah, CNO, swapped the Naim for an Electrocompaniet, Class A jobby, then sold that for the Pioneer. Really not much difference if any. Had Musical Fidelity before, in Oz, don't rate them.

In the end, it's the speakers that make the difference, amps just peripheral. Whoops, off now, b**ger.

 

[CnoEvil]

Nah, CNO, swapped the Naim for an Electrocompaniet, Class A jobby, then sold that for the Pioneer. Really not much difference if any. Had Musical Fidelity before, in Oz, don't rate them.

In the end, it's the speakers that make the difference, amps just peripheral. Whoops, off now, b**ger.

AL, you're all upside down and the wrong way round. 😛

 

[BenLaw]

Nah, CNO, swapped the Naim for an Electrocompaniet, Class A jobby, then sold that for the Pioneer. Really not much difference if any. Had Musical Fidelity before, in Oz, don't rate them.

In the end, it's the speakers that make the difference, amps just peripheral. Whoops, off now, b**ger.

AL, you're all upside down and the wrong way round. 😛

Either that, or modern country, modern ideas 🙂

 

[CnoEvil]

Nah, CNO, swapped the Naim for an Electrocompaniet, Class A jobby, then sold that for the Pioneer. Really not much difference if any. Had Musical Fidelity before, in Oz, don't rate them.

In the end, it's the speakers that make the difference, amps just peripheral. Whoops, off now, b**ger.

AL, you're all upside down and the wrong way round. 😛

Either that, or modern country, modern ideas 🙂

......and moved over here! :shifty:

 

[BenLaw]

Nah, CNO, swapped the Naim for an Electrocompaniet, Class A jobby, then sold that for the Pioneer. Really not much difference if any. Had Musical Fidelity before, in Oz, don't rate them.

In the end, it's the speakers that make the difference, amps just peripheral. Whoops, off now, b**ger.

AL, you're all upside down and the wrong way round. 😛

Either that, or modern country, modern ideas 🙂

......and moved over here! :shifty:

Probably for the great weather...

 

[BenLaw]

Or the quality burgers.

 

[CnoEvil]

Nah, CNO, swapped the Naim for an Electrocompaniet, Class A jobby, then sold that for the Pioneer. Really not much difference if any. Had Musical Fidelity before, in Oz, don't rate them.

In the end, it's the speakers that make the difference, amps just peripheral. Whoops, off now, b**ger.

AL, you're all upside down and the wrong way round. 😛

Either that, or modern country, modern ideas 🙂

......and moved over here! :shifty:

Probably for the great weather...

Wait till he tries Ireland!

 

[Andrew Everard]

b**ger.

Beef or horse?

 

[the record spot]

Yeah, but which ones have you heard doing all this? Same with timing. does an amp really have influence on this? In fact, does any component? Can we name and shame?

I've always thought PRaT was a joke on the back of the acronym. I've never yet heard an amp, or source, affect "timing". What timing is going to go exactly? Will the drum beats be out of sync? Will the guitar be a beat behind? Will the conductor suddenly lose the orchestra? Nope...never anything like that yet.

 

[steve_1979]

By transparency we mean the ability of the amplifier to let the music signal through unchanged.

So basically what you mean by 'transparency' is low distortion?

Does this mean that when WHF describes an amplifier in a review as being 'transparent' it will have a measurably lower THD than an amplifier that isn't described as being 'transparent'?

 

[moon]

By transparency we mean the ability of the amplifier to let the music signal through unchanged.

So basically what you mean by 'transparency' is low distortion?

Does this mean that when WHF describes an amplifier in a review as being 'transparent' it will have a measurably lower THD than an amplifier that isn't described as being 'transparent'?

well if thats the case, the Marantz has very low THD.

 

[MeanandGreen]

Yeah, but which ones have you heard doing all this? Same with timing. does an amp really have influence on this? In fact, does any component? Can we name and shame?

I've always thought PRaT was a joke on the back of the acronym. I've never yet heard an amp, or source, affect "timing". What timing is going to go exactly? Will the drum beats be out of sync? Will the guitar be a beat behind? Will the conductor suddenly lose the orchestra? Nope...never anything like that yet.

Indeed I think the whole "timing" thing is nonsense. Timing of individual instruments on a recording cannot be affected.

 

[CnoEvil]

Yeah, but which ones have you heard doing all this? Same with timing. does an amp really have influence on this? In fact, does any component? Can we name and shame?

I've always thought PRaT was a joke on the back of the acronym. I've never yet heard an amp, or source, affect "timing". What timing is going to go exactly? Will the drum beats be out of sync? Will the guitar be a beat behind? Will the conductor suddenly lose the orchestra? Nope...never anything like that yet.

Indeed I think the whole "timing" thing is nonsense. Timing of individual instruments on a recording cannot be affected.

An amp that can't properly control the bass driver on a speaker, turns the whole bassline and drums to a sort of muddled mush...thus effecting the timing (IMO).

 

[BenLaw]

We judge products against similarly-priced rivals. In this case the arrival of Rotel's RA-10 has raised the bar, and shown that the Marantz could be better in certain areas.

By transparency we mean the ability of the amplifier to let the music signal through unchanged.

That's clear enough but how do you know what the original "music signal" sounds like so that you can judge the extent of any "change"?

BTW perhaps you could explain "timing"?

Chris

While waiting for a reply, this might help ie. explaining the relationship between Pace, Rhythm and Timing: http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html

That kind of explains what the terms means, but doesn't make any attempt to explain how different kit changes them.

 

[richardw42]

We judge products against similarly-priced rivals. In this case the arrival of Rotel's RA-10 has raised the bar, and shown that the Marantz could be better in certain areas.

By transparency we mean the ability of the amplifier to let the music signal through unchanged.

how do you measure this ?

transparency is a BS word that has no meaning in this context, but WHF and hi Fi in general Are not alone. Any reviewer of pretty much anything probably has to dress it up a bit.

 

[BenLaw]

Are distortion figures not printed in most hifi product specifications?

Measurements will show distortion or artifacts, but wether or not you can actually hear and identify them is another matter entirely, which is where 'audibly transparent' comes in.

Playing devil's advocate, is there any reason why there can't be an 'audibly transparent' passive crossover?