What you say may be true for the average 3 bed semi in Surbiton (or wherever) but the World doesn't end at Dover, and over here an awful lot of homes built in recent years have either dedicated movie rooms or basements that can be, or indeed have been, turned into movie rooms. We also have these things called "night time" and "curtains". I am sure they're not confined to the Americas. The potential American market alone must be huge, yet prices remain stubbornly high. I'm not going to waste my time doing a patent review for Sony and 4K projectors. Just typing in "Sony" and "projector" came up with 184 international patents filed by Sony in the last ten years. You are free to do so yourself. There must be a reason why their competitors, rivals even, haven't entered the 4K PJ market, however. I very much doubt it's got anything to do with demand. Think about it. Just about every niche product has a competitor, whether it's the iPod, iPad, iPhone, iToiletSeat, i-you-name-it. Likewise, although Honda has sold gazillions of Honda Cubs (C-50, C-90 step-throughs) across the globe, it still makes 1000cc sports bikes sold in the UK in the hundreds or perhaps a thousand or two each year, and the small market doesn't stop them. Rivals like Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Ducati even, also produce competing 1000 cc motorcycles for that small, niche, super high performance market. Likewise, some brands build super-super-prestige 85 inch 4K HDR OLED TVs (costing $10,000 or more over here) as much as to be walking / rolling / sitting advertisements for their mainstream, mundane products (like 40 inch 1080p or even 32 inch 720p sets) as anything else. Anyway, for whatever reason, Sony seems to have a monopoly right now, and until that monopoly ends, prices will remain high. Why would they cut their prices anyway, if "money isn't an issue" to your friends?bigboss said:
bigboss
Moderator
Check the link, and Epson's comment on it. Sony may have 184 patents, but the 4K chip is made by a third party manufacturer, not Sony. All in the link I've provided. And Sony has no monopoly on it.
Your link says Sony or.... Sony for home 4K, with the TI offering being another not really 4K...
And whether Sony has the patent or an exclusive licence on someone else's, whether Sony makes the gizmos in house or buys them in, it really doesn't matter. Fact remains that Sony has a monopoly and is exploiting it to the hilt.
And whether Sony has the patent or an exclusive licence on someone else's, whether Sony makes the gizmos in house or buys them in, it really doesn't matter. Fact remains that Sony has a monopoly and is exploiting it to the hilt.
bigboss
Moderator
Nobody's stopping other manufacturers from ordering this chip, which has been available since Spring 2016:
http://hometheaterreview.com/texas-instruments-announces-4k-uhd-chipset/
Sony does not have any monopoly on 4K chips. I would like to see any evidence to support your claim.
http://hometheaterreview.com/texas-instruments-announces-4k-uhd-chipset/
Sony does not have any monopoly on 4K chips. I would like to see any evidence to support your claim.
bigboss
Moderator
The TI chip came out in 2016, yes, but I have yet to see an actual projector using it. And if you read the article, it's not a kosher 4K chip at all, having half the "mirrors" of a 4K chip, which it is said, flip quick enough to simulate two pixels each. I'm not claiming beyond doubt that Sony has a patent or a monopoly on 4K chips, merely that it might be the reason no other manufacturer has yet to bring out a true 4K alternative. You've said it's because the market isn't big enough. I've disputed that. You've said its because there aren't enough houses with curtains. I've disputed that. You've said yourself or your friends, money isn't an issue. You've implied its an economy of scale issue, I think I've proven that one wrong. You've implied that the World stops at Dover. Well, even Nigel Farage would disagree with that one. I've proposed a credible reason, and I'll stick with it. If I'm wrong, so be it. It's not like I stand to gain or loose anything either way - but show me a genuine full-on 4K (not pseudo 4K like the JVC) HOME projector made by anyone else. You can't right?bigboss said:
BTW the first home 4K projector I am aware of was the Sony VPL-VW1000ES, announced at CEDIA in September 2011. It uses (used) a technology called SXRD:
SXRD (Silicon X-tal Reflective Display) is Sony's LCOS video projection technology. LCOS, or Liquid Crystal on Silicon is like a hybrid of DLP and LCD technologies. A layer of liquid crystal sits on top of a reflective surface. The light created by the lamp reflects off this surface, or not if the liquid crystal twists to block it. (source http://hometheaterreview.com/sxrd/ ).
I think you'll find THAT is proprietary to Sony and at the heart of their current 4K projectors. Assuming Sony had the brains to invent that, and therefore the brains to slap one or more patents on the technology and / or the manufacture, it's pretty certain their patent protection extends to any 4K projector technology using it or similar....
SXRD (Silicon X-tal Reflective Display) is Sony's LCOS video projection technology. LCOS, or Liquid Crystal on Silicon is like a hybrid of DLP and LCD technologies. A layer of liquid crystal sits on top of a reflective surface. The light created by the lamp reflects off this surface, or not if the liquid crystal twists to block it. (source http://hometheaterreview.com/sxrd/ ).
I think you'll find THAT is proprietary to Sony and at the heart of their current 4K projectors. Assuming Sony had the brains to invent that, and therefore the brains to slap one or more patents on the technology and / or the manufacture, it's pretty certain their patent protection extends to any 4K projector technology using it or similar....
bigboss
Moderator
1) The world may not stop at Dover, but the projector market certainly does not extend to the world's biggest markets for TVs (China, India and Brazil). Taking 4K out of the equation completely, the kind of success you're predicting should have happened when 1080p still ruled. You get 1080p projectors at all price points. Now you're predicting a sales growth that is unprecedented in the industry with 4K. Even reviewers aren't noticing any difference between true 4K and faux 4K projectors, so there's nothing to stop people from buying the faux 4K ones (it's advertised as 4K anyway, to confuse people).
2) Sony's SXRD has nothing to do with 4K. It's a Sony technology like Bravia. It was also used in their rear projection TVs in the past.
http://hometheaterreview.com/sxrd/
2) Sony's SXRD has nothing to do with 4K. It's a Sony technology like Bravia. It was also used in their rear projection TVs in the past.
http://hometheaterreview.com/sxrd/
bigboss
Moderator
You will find this report interesting:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/research-and-markets---global-home-theatre-projector-market-cagr-growth-of-763-by-2020---trends-technologies--opportunities-report-2016-2020---vendors-sony-3m-canon-300356038.html
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/research-and-markets---global-home-theatre-projector-market-cagr-growth-of-763-by-2020---trends-technologies--opportunities-report-2016-2020---vendors-sony-3m-canon-300356038.html
bigboss
Moderator
It was me who said about economies of scale and they are needed to reduce manufacturing costs and therefore retails costs. However as David F said if price drops quickly so will quality
Sony by all accounts have their own 4k chipset from the professional cinema world hence access to the technology much sooner than the competition which is relying on third party chipsets being available
Thats only going to be part of the battle - resolving the image is the next battle which will require outstanding lens quality and I am sure other tech to do the 4k image true justice - this bit is definately expensive and is the area I think thats holding the current 4k pj's back against the faux 4k models after seeing the images produced by the BenQ W11000 in the review I linked to.
If you have ever seen the Sony VW1100 in action its a marvel and it has a much better lens than the 500 range and its more than double the price.
The JVC Z1 will be the best peformer vfm and thats supposed to have a stonking lense but its £30k.
At the moment in the real world faux 4k or Sony ex dem, used or outgoing model discounted it is
Sony by all accounts have their own 4k chipset from the professional cinema world hence access to the technology much sooner than the competition which is relying on third party chipsets being available
Thats only going to be part of the battle - resolving the image is the next battle which will require outstanding lens quality and I am sure other tech to do the 4k image true justice - this bit is definately expensive and is the area I think thats holding the current 4k pj's back against the faux 4k models after seeing the images produced by the BenQ W11000 in the review I linked to.
If you have ever seen the Sony VW1100 in action its a marvel and it has a much better lens than the 500 range and its more than double the price.
The JVC Z1 will be the best peformer vfm and thats supposed to have a stonking lense but its £30k.
At the moment in the real world faux 4k or Sony ex dem, used or outgoing model discounted it is
I am told by a US retailer that the JVC "e-shift4" D-ILA projectors will be hitting the stores by the end of this month. These are NOT "genuine" 4K projectors, but use clever and fast electronics to project two (or more) lower resolution images in very quick succession to give a virtual 4K image. A bit like 1080i (interlaced) repaints every second line of the TV image in one pass, the other every second line on the next, with the visual imaging lingering on one's retina long enough to (almost) give the impression of a full 1080p (progressive) scan image, where very line of the display is repainted every pass.
www.procision.jvc.com
MSRP for the cheapest one is US$4999.95 plus state sales taxes, or about half the cost of the cheapest full 4K offering from Sony.
JVC's only native 4K projector, the DLA-RS4500 costs a whopping US$35000!
www.procision.jvc.com
MSRP for the cheapest one is US$4999.95 plus state sales taxes, or about half the cost of the cheapest full 4K offering from Sony.
JVC's only native 4K projector, the DLA-RS4500 costs a whopping US$35000!
Only $25K? I'll take three then (one to use, one back at Sony being fixed and one spare, just in case).ellisdj said:Cheaper 4k Laser here for you
Quote:
The new model includes Texas Instruments' 4K UHD DLP chipset which uses a 0.66-inch Digital Micromirror Device (DMD) that, whilst not technically a 4K chip, can deliver the full 8 million pixels thanks to the fast switching of the DMD and advanced image processing thus creating an affordable UHD solution.
Unquote.
Like I said before, the TI chip uses clever - and fast - electronics to produce a 4K image similarly to the way a 1080i image is produced compared to a full 1080p.
I'm sure it'll look good, just not the full shilling.
It's only a matter of time, but maybe by then someone will have brought out a 120 inch plus "wallpaper" monitor that makes the PJ redundant for home use.
The new model includes Texas Instruments' 4K UHD DLP chipset which uses a 0.66-inch Digital Micromirror Device (DMD) that, whilst not technically a 4K chip, can deliver the full 8 million pixels thanks to the fast switching of the DMD and advanced image processing thus creating an affordable UHD solution.
Unquote.
Like I said before, the TI chip uses clever - and fast - electronics to produce a 4K image similarly to the way a 1080i image is produced compared to a full 1080p.
I'm sure it'll look good, just not the full shilling.
It's only a matter of time, but maybe by then someone will have brought out a 120 inch plus "wallpaper" monitor that makes the PJ redundant for home use.
Seen the WHF article on the LG "W" TVs?
If they made one of those at (for me) 110, maybe 120 inch diagonal 16:9 (I'd prefer CinemaScope, but...) , price around $10k, I would have no need for a 4K PJ and screen at all. Easier to install, no cables to run through ceilings, no need to paint the movie room black, no bulbs to replace....
Perhaps that's where the home "big screen" market is going to go.
If they made one of those at (for me) 110, maybe 120 inch diagonal 16:9 (I'd prefer CinemaScope, but...) , price around $10k, I would have no need for a 4K PJ and screen at all. Easier to install, no cables to run through ceilings, no need to paint the movie room black, no bulbs to replace....
Perhaps that's where the home "big screen" market is going to go.
I am sure they want more than that for the 75" model.
The problem with a TV is the 16:9 ratio of the screen. 75" becomes a 60" for movies but thast depends on your viewing content preference
The problem with a TV is the 16:9 ratio of the screen. 75" becomes a 60" for movies but thast depends on your viewing content preference
$10k (well, the usual $9,999.95) is about the price point they need to aim at for the US and 77 inches isn't big enough for the American HT market.
85 inch 4K HDR TVs are $8k here BTW, so 110 or 120 inch at $10k should be achievable, especially with no built in audio or tuners or "smart" features.
And who was mentioning economies of scale?
85 inch 4K HDR TVs are $8k here BTW, so 110 or 120 inch at $10k should be achievable, especially with no built in audio or tuners or "smart" features.
And who was mentioning economies of scale?
Notwithstanding the UK's 20% VAT compared to our 8.5% Texas sales tax, making up a huge amount of the price differences, there's no Selfridges in 77433, or even 77056 - Houston's premium retail area.ellisdj said:
We have to make do with BestBuy:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-85-class-84-5-diag-led-2160p-smart-4k-ultra-hdtv-with-high-dynamic-range-black/4804000.p?skuId=4804000
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