When will 4k projectors become affordable?

[FunkyMonkey]

Under £2000?

I saw the first ones in the Bristol Show 2 years and they are still not anywhere near mainstream. Wtf is going on?

 

[bigboss]

Epson EH-TW7300 can accept 4K signals. Available for £2199.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

Epson EH-TW7300 can accept 4K signals. Available for £2199.

Thanks. Does this model do a convincing impression of a "proper" 4K picture?

 

[ellisdj]

Its reviewed by AVF as being a bit of a stunner and no brainer at the price.

Very accurate HD and UHD performance out of the box with good brighntess and good HDR performance with very high % of P3 colour tracking because it uses a filter in the light path

A lot of people cannot really see much difference between faux 4k and real 4k on smaller screens 110" inch ish. I have not tried so cannot confirm you will need to check for yourself

Also motorised lens so you get lens memory function and motorised lens cover - thats awesome

Main caveat is black level - now in a bad cave on a +gain screen that could be an issue - deliberate use of word could

Normal living room conditions with a negative gain screen that helps blacks out sounds like a great combo at the money.

Or stepping up the the LS10500 sounds like the PJ in crowds big pick for the year

 

[hammill]

http://www.richersounds.com/product/projectors/epson/ehtw7300/epso-eh-tw7300

Has a code to get it for £2099

 

[ellisdj]

if you listen to the 2 most recent avf podcasts the espon 7300 is talked about a lot. pretty sure its the last 2, easy to check

 

[ellisdj]

Just came across this - very interesting on the benefit of a good 4K Projector vs an excellent 1080p faux 4K,

Its Massive

EDIT I dont think its even a proper 4k machine but its interesting to see actually whats there in the tech.

 

[MajorFubar]

Like all technology their prices are driven by market forces. All consumer electronics are essentially cheap to make, and in five years time when you'll be able to buy one for about £600 it won't be because the cost of making one has quartered.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Once Sony's patents or whatever is keeping them as the sole supplier of proper, full, 4K projectors expire, other manufacturers will enter the market, and the prices will tumble.

Until then...

 

[Diamond Joe]

Oh well, looks like it's going to be quite a while before I get a 4k projector*

*I'm a bit of a skinflint *blush*

 

[seemorebtts]

I think the 1080p projectors are great for around £1000. Wouldn't worry about 4k

 

[Frank Harvey]

Once Sony's patents or whatever is keeping them as the sole supplier of proper, full, 4K projectors expire, other manufacturers will enter the market, and the prices will tumble.

Until then...

I'm not sure anything is holding anyone back - I think other manufacturers either don't have the tech, or just can't compete. But yes, once others try and compete, prices will fall. Although, I wouldn't wish for those prices to drastically drop overnight - I'd rather they came down slowly, allowing manufacturers to have a chance of maintaining quality.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Once Sony's patents or whatever is keeping them as the sole supplier of proper, full, 4K projectors expire, other manufacturers will enter the market, and the prices will tumble.

Until then...

I'm not sure anything is holding anyone back - I think other manufacturers either don't have the tech, or just can't compete. But yes, once others try and compete, prices will fall. Although, I wouldn't wish for those prices to drastically drop overnight - I'd rather they came down slowly, allowing manufacturers to have a chance of maintaining quality.

If Sony can do it, I'm sure Epson, Matsushita (parent of Panasonic), LG, Samsung, etc. could do it just as well. It's just like F1 really, Ferrari wouldn't stomach Mercedes getting all the glory and vice versa.

Either they're judging there isn't a big enough market (which I doubt) or there's some sort of IP barrier preventing them from competing.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

Thanks all for some very interesting advice and links.
I currently have an Optoma HD50 that was indeed over a grand when purchased over 2 years ago. For 1080p it is brilliant.

Thing is, I watched a bit of Reverant and Kingsman Service on 4K blu ray at my brother's house on a Xbox one S and 2015 4k Panasonic without HDR, and could tell a difference. I know I'm not comparing apples and apples as one is a PJ on a 100inch screen and one is a TV, but given I find the PJ a step up from my brilliant 1080p TV, then it makes me think that my PJ can easily be better with today's 4K tech.

Everything has a price though.

 

[ellisdj]

I think its more to do with the chipset cost and implementation. Sony make 4k Commercial cinema projectors so they were able to trickle down the chipset and design etc into domestic projectors much faster than the other manufacturers.

They are not silly they know if they were priced cheaper they would sell a lot more and the price has been the same for years so manufactruring cost cant be significantly reducing for them at this stage.

Now there is the JVC Z1 laser 4k PJ they have the tech to trickle down from as well but that takes a long time, I think thats why companies have gone faux 4k now to fill in a stop gap so it doesnt look like they are getting left behind the market.

4k BD Players are getting cheaper all the time so demand will increase surely as more sell into homes

I have still not seen any 4k on my 4k PJ - looking forward to when I eventually do.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

Ellisdj, what PJ have you got?

 

[ellisdj]

Sony VW500

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

I think its more to do with the chipset cost and implementation. Sony make 4k Commercial cinema projectors so they were able to trickle down the chipset and design etc into domestic projectors much faster than the other manufacturers.

Possibly, but I think there's a lot more houses than cinemas....

They are not silly they know if they were priced cheaper they would sell a lot more and the price has been the same for years so manufactruring cost cant be significantly reducing for them at this stage.

Not sure about that. The "plus one" costs of the chips (that is the cost to produce one more - or a thousand more - chip(s) from the same machinery) is probably peanuts.

Now there is the JVC Z1 laser 4k PJ they have the tech to trickle down from as well but that takes a long time, I think thats why companies have gone faux 4k now to fill in a stop gap so it doesnt look like they are getting left behind the market.

Agreed. But if they could make 4K projectors, why aren't they and why go for a stop-gap at all?

4k BD Players are getting cheaper all the time so demand will increase surely as more sell into homes

Agreed. But not fast enough. Sony still has the monopoly so why would they cut their prices?

I have still not seen any 4k on my 4k PJ - looking forward to when I eventually do.

I agree that the range of UHD BDs isn't great, especially if you're not into "Batman vs. The Trumpton Fire Brigade" type stuff, but Netflix and Amazon are streaming 4K stuff in the US at least.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Sony VW500

A mere snip at GBP 8799.99 MSRP (plus the mounting bracket, screen, 50 ft. 4K HDMI cable....). You cheapskate you

 

[ellisdj]

I didnt pay quite that much but it was the most expensive thing I had bought for my home cinema, its not anymore, my speakers costs more. It did cost pretty much all that time I bought a screen and all the extras but its pretty stellar though and does bring a film to life in 2.40:1 ratio. Not perfect by any stretch though, not at all in fact.

I think your overlooking how few people have PJs compared to Tv's I would guess less than 5% of the overall display market

Economies of scale therefore dont exist and its then an expensive manufacture and purchase.

If it was cheap to make 4k projectors the market would be flooded - its cheaper to do HDR and WCG obviously as you can pick a top performer up for tv money as we have discussed epson 7300 - yet true 4k is still 3x as expensive at least

PS I built my own mounting shelf so that didnt cost very much

 

[bigboss]

It's not that straightforward. You could argue that every single smartphone in the market can have the highest specs as it "only costs a few pennies". But the market forces decide the final cost. The projector market is still very small. That's why you don't see Samsung or LG jumping into making them. So you need a decent profit margin to even think of manufacturing them.

 

[jjbomber]

Ellisdj, what PJ have you got?

You still wear pyjamas???

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

It's not that straightforward. You could argue that every single smartphone in the market can have the highest specs as it "only costs a few pennies". But the market forces decide the final cost. The projector market is still very small. That's why you don't see Samsung or LG jumping into making them. So you need a decent profit margin to even think of manufacturing them.

You can buy an Android 4G smartphone on Amazon.com for as little as $50, or spend $700 plus on an iPhone 7. Both will "do" most of what the other will "do" (like make phone calls, surf the net, play Youtubes, and take pictures) to a greater or lesser extent. Do you REALLY think an iPhone costs ten times as much to manufacture as the el cheapo brand or do you think marketing and mis-placed (IMHO) label "value" have their parts to play?

Yes, the market for projectors and screens is smaller than the market for ordinary TVs, but if you saw how many 60 inch 4K TVs BestBuy sells in comparison to 32 or even 40 inch 1080p TVs these days I think you'd be very surprised. Such TVs can only be found at the backs of the stores for a reason. My point being if / when the prices for 4K PJs come down to more affordable levels, around the US$1000 to $2000 level that current, decent 1080p PJs are, the market would burst wide open.

Now let's think about manufacturing cost. Suppose you build a machine to make the one chip that is crucial to building a 4K PJ. And let's say, for argument's sake, that machine costs $10miilion. And let's say, for argument's sake, the raw materials, electricity, etc. add up to $10 per chip. If you use that machine to make just one chip, that chip ends up costing you $10million for the machine plus $10 for the materials, etc., total $10,000,010. Now let's say you make 1000 chips. Now the total cost is $10million for the machine, and $10,000 for materials, etc., total $10,010,000. Divided by 1000 chips, the cost per chip drops to $10,010 per chip, or about 1/1000th of the one chip. Make a million chips and the price per chip drops to $20. So economies of scale really do matter.

The "why" of "why 4K PJs are so expensive" has, probably, in my opinion, more to do with patents or other IP issues than anything else, and I'll leave it at that.

 

[bigboss]

All of this sounds good on paper. But surely, the manufacturers have done their research? You can get decent projectors for £500 or less, far cheaper than the large TVs. The biggest issue with the projector is the need for a dark room. The vast majority don't have a dedicated cinema room, and a lot of living rooms where the TV resides, are very bright. All my friends are impressed with my projector, but only 1 of them is going for one. Others don't think their room is suitable for one. Money isn't an issue.

No manufacturer holds the patent for 4K chips as far as I'm aware, unless you can provide any news proving otherwise.

 

[bigboss]

Check this:

http://hometheaterreview.com/the-state-of-4k-front-projection/