Question What would be the appropriate upgrade path?

[mrob]

Hi!

I started this quest (unfortunately or fortunately - depends who you ask!!!) of getting the best sound possible. I know it will be an endless journey, which is part of the fun (along with those wow moments when an upgrade makes a noticeable difference). I don't have unlimited budget, and I don't want to jump into the 10k systems (not yet at least!!).

I have the following setup:
- Source 1: Bluesound node (2023) - Tidal hifi plus and local 24/192 flacs -> SMSL D300 DAC
- Source 2: Revolver Rebel (upgraded arm & stylus) -> Cambridge audio CP2
- Amp: Yamaha HTR 6160 (using pure direct audio)
- Speakers: Elac B6 2.0
- My room is my office, quite small (11'x9', give or take).

With all of this being said, I actually have 2 questions.

1. I am wondering whether upgrading the amp to something else would change anything with my current setup? Would that be my current bottleneck, or do I have a somewhat balanced system? (I know the turntable is an outlier, it was given to me).

2. I have been trying to find some online tool for answering this question! I know I must not be the first one to ask about upgrade path... So I was wondering - is there some database maintained with hifi component ratings? It would be interesting to have something similar to what userbenchmark is to gaming, but for audio... No?

Thank you in advance!

Mrob

 

[Al ears]

Regarding your second question the answer is, even if there was one, it would be pointless as everyone has different hearing and a different listening room.
Regards your first, isnt that HDR6160 a Yamaha??
Anyway yes I would be upgrading the amplifier to a good stereo integrated and possibly upgrade the Cambridge phono preamp as well if the integrated doesn't have a good internal phono stage.

 

[mrob]

Regarding your second question the answer is, even if there was one, it would be pointless as everyone has different hearing and a different listening room.
Regards your first, isnt that HDR6160 a Yamaha??
Anyway yes I would be upgrading the amplifier to a good stereo integrated and possibly upgrade the Cambridge phono preamp as well if the integrated doesn't have a good internal phono stage.

Duh! Yes! Yamaha! Sorry hahaha mistake due to having a Sony STR-DN1050 upstairs, which I don't use as there is a hum with the turntable on that amp, and it does not sound as good for music... Sorry, drifting here.

I fixed the error in question.

I have my eyes on Marantz PM6007, PM8006 (this one would be stretching the budget), or Cambridge Audio AXR85 or AXR100, which would be closer to my budget. Since I already have all required devices for streaming, I don't think I would need CXA?

Or any other suggestions in that range?

Concerning point 2, you have a point. I but still, I would think some comparative and ranking (price vs feeling maybe?) Anyway, just a thought.

Thanks!

 

[matthewpianist]

Out of those you mention I'd warmly recommend the Marantz PM6007. As a performance/value proposition it's a great buy - much better than the Cambridge Audio receivers you also mention, and more affordable than the PM8006.

Also worth a look are the Denon PMA800NE and the NAD C316BEE. I would suggest the Rotel A11 Tribute based on sound, but it seems reliability is somewhat patchy.

 

[WayneKerr]

Not allowed to sell on here but I've got a surplus to requirements Marantz Pearl Lite amplifier, basically the equivalent of a PM8004, PM me for details if interested.

 

[mrob]

Out of those you mention I'd warmly recommend the Marantz PM6007. As a performance/value proposition it's a great buy - much better than the Cambridge Audio receivers you also mention, and more affordable than the PM8006.

Thanks, I lean toward marantz as well. Do you know if 8006 would be a noticeable step over 6007? I can get (and possibly sample) the 8006 which is in local store, but not the 6007.. if the step for vynil is big, then I might shed the extra...

I must order the 6007 if that's the one I get .

Thanks!

 

[Al ears]

Thanks, I lean toward marantz as well. Do you know if 8006 would be a noticeable step over 6007? I can get (and possibly sample) the 8006 which is in local store, but not the 6007.. if the step for vynil is big, then I might shed the extra...

I must order the 6007 if that's the one I get .

Thanks!

I doubt there will be much noticeable difference between the phono stages in these amplifiers, if that is what you are concerned about.

 

[mrob]

I doubt there will be much noticeable difference between the phono stages in these amplifiers, if that is what you are concerned about.

Thanks Al, that is indeed what I was wondering. On Marantz's site, it does look like they have different phono stage and build quality (?). But I trust you here, especially on a 900$ difference!..

I checked the ones Mathew suggested (NAD, Denon and Rotal) and for some reasons, my brain just wont accept Denon (I don't know why - I suspect some backwater experiences I don't remember).

I think I need to figure out a way to test these amps in my setup.

Thanks all for your suggestions, I will sleep on this and see what I do next.

Mrob

 

[nads]

Coming in late to this. But yes the amp would be what I change.

I would not bother with a built in phono stage. Opens up more amps. And you can then play around with the upgrade path with them.

 

[mrob]

Coming in late to this. But yes the amp would be what I change.

I would not bother with a built in phono stage. Opens up more amps. And you can then play around with the upgrade path with them.

Thanks, at least now I know the weak spot is the amp- seems like we all agree 👍

Now, let's say I change the parameters to looking for the best amp (in the PM6007 price range) but where I don't need/care for a DAC, nor a phono stage (already got an external one deemed "ok"), would recommended amp change?

Or these amps still the top choices (Marantz PM6007, NAD C316BEE, Denon PMA800NE, Rotel A11 Tribute)?

Difficult decision!

Thanks for your inputs, appreciated!

Mrob

 

[matthewpianist]

It's become pretty hard to find an amp without a built-in phono stage since the 'vinyl revival', so this doesn't really change the picture.

You mention some reticence regarding Denon. They are now the same company as Marantz and their amps are very similar but with slightly different voicing.

I have got an A11 Tribute arriving today - I'm giving it another try given that I'm already using the matching CD player. If it exhibits any issues it will go straight back, but I've always enjoyed Rotel amps in the past and when I did have an A11 Tribute I liked the sound. I'll report back in the next couple of days.

 

[nads]

Thanks, at least now I know the weak spot is the amp- seems like we all agree 👍

Now, let's say I change the parameters to looking for the best amp (in the PM6007 price range) but where I don't need/care for a DAC, nor a phono stage (already got an external one deemed "ok"), would recommended amp change?

Or these amps still the top choices (Marantz PM6007, NAD C316BEE, Denon PMA800NE, Rotel A11 Tribute)?

Difficult decision!

Thanks for your inputs, appreciated!

Mrob

I am biased. But again listening is the best way even if it is not with your speakers.

 

[Al ears]

Thanks Al, that is indeed what I was wondering. On Marantz's site, it does look like they have different phono stage and build quality (?). But I trust you here, especially on a 900$ difference!..

I checked the ones Mathew suggested (NAD, Denon and Rotal) and for some reasons, my brain just wont accept Denon (I don't know why - I suspect some backwater experiences I don't remember).

I think I need to figure out a way to test these amps in my setup.

Thanks all for your suggestions, I will sleep on this and see what I do next.

Mrob

It is a pity you aren't in the UK otherwise I would suggest this :-

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[plastic penguin]

I doubt there will be much noticeable difference between the phono stages in these amplifiers, if that is what you are concerned about.

Indeed. Most built-in phono stages are all very good and all similar around that price.

The amplifier does look like the feasible upgrade

 

[matthewpianist]

Quick update: My A11 Tribute landed yesterday and I gave it a first workout last night, with vinyl, the CD11 Tribute and my JBL 52L Classics.

So far so good with no issues. The sound is superb, as I remember, and if it continues to behave well it will definitely be a keeper. I'll update again in a couple of days.

 

[mrob]

When I thought I was set... I now have an opportunity for a "vintage" marantz PM-68 (which makes me vintage haha) at a reasonable price (I think). Is it worth going this path for about half the price of a new PM6007?

 

[matthewpianist]

When I thought I was set... I now have an opportunity for a "vintage" marantz PM-68 (which makes me vintage haha) at a reasonable price (I think). Is it worth going this path for about half the price of a new PM6007?

I'd be cautious. Marantz amps have come a very long way.

 

[mrob]

I'd be cautious. Marantz amps have come a very long way.

Oh! Ok, thanks. Since I cannot test it, I'll avoid it then.

Mrob

 

[matthewpianist]

Oh! Ok, thanks. Since I cannot test it, I'll avoid it then.

Mrob

Quite a few older Marantz amps are particularly prone to dry joints as well, not something which seems to have reared its head from the 6002 onwards. The 6007 is the best amp in the 6000 series, and I say this based on having heard and owned most of 6002, 6003, 6004, 6006 and 6007.

 

[robdmarsh]

If it's Marantz vs Denon in amps at this level I am Denon all the way. I had a Marantz pm6006 uk edition for a short amount of time and it wasn't a patch on the Denon pma 800ne. The sound of these too amps is not dissimilar but the Denon has so much more life and get up and go. But then this little Denon amp just goes on giving and never ceases to surprise me. I tried a Naim Nait 5si out of curiosity and the Denon was just the better amp in most categories apart from maybe speed but my system was not lacking in this respect anyway.

Just to add, I had an A11 Tribute for a bit and didn't get it. It made no sound until the volume was well pass 20 on the digital read out. That was enough to put me off completely.

 

[mrob]

If it's Marantz vs Denon in amps at this level I am Denon all the way. I had a Marantz pm6006 uk edition for a short amount of time and it wasn't a patch on the Denon pma 800ne. The sound of these too amps is not dissimilar but the Denon has so much more life and get up and go. But then this little Denon amp just goes on giving and never ceases to surprise me. I tried a Naim Nait 5si out of curiosity and the Denon was just the better amp in most categories apart from maybe speed but my system was not lacking in this respect anyway.

Just to add, I had an A11 Tribute for a bit and didn't get it. It made no sound until the volume was well pass 20 on the digital read out. That was enough to put me off completely.

Thanks for mudding the waters !!!

That is why I posted here. I will plan listening both a marantz and Denon if I can... Someone said it's basically the same company, so why not at this stage....

 

[nopiano]

Thanks for mudding the waters !!!

That is why I posted here. I will plan listening both a marantz and Denon if I can... Someone said it's basically the same company, so why not at this stage....

The insides of many Denon and Marantz are notably different. One was a Japanese broadcast standard manufacturer; the other a US company that began with tubes and tuners!

 

[matthewpianist]

Denon and Marantz do use different transformers - Denon have stuck with the EI frame type, and Marantz use toroids. There are going to be other differences but economies of scale also mean there will be plenty of shared parts etc. It's a similar story to IAG who share lots of components across the Quad, Audiolab, Leak, Mission and Wharfedale brands.

 

[matthewpianist]

If it's Marantz vs Denon in amps at this level I am Denon all the way. I had a Marantz pm6006 uk edition for a short amount of time and it wasn't a patch on the Denon pma 800ne. The sound of these too amps is not dissimilar but the Denon has so much more life and get up and go. But then this little Denon amp just goes on giving and never ceases to surprise me. I tried a Naim Nait 5si out of curiosity and the Denon was just the better amp in most categories apart from maybe speed but my system was not lacking in this respect anyway.

Just to add, I had an A11 Tribute for a bit and didn't get it. It made no sound until the volume was well pass 20 on the digital read out. That was enough to put me off completely.

The Denon is indeed a superb amplifier and very good value for money.

You are right about the volume control on the A11 Tribute, but it doesn't bother me. It means that the steps as you turn the volume up are smaller than on a lot of amps which give most of their power before they even hit the 12 o'clock position. I'm finding the Rotel sits nicely at around 45 (the default at turn-on) and 50 on the volume control, though this is of course paired with the Qs, which are very sensitive and present a fairly benign load.

 

[nopiano]

Denon and Marantz do use different transformers - Denon have stuck with the EI frame type, and Marantz use toroids. There are going to be other differences but economies of scale also mean there will be plenty of shared parts etc. It's a similar story to IAG who share lots of components across the Quad, Audiolab, Leak, Mission and Wharfedale brands.

I had in mind products like the Denon A-110 amp and the similarly priced Marantz Series 30. The Denon is a traditional class AB with a unique volume/gain arrangement, whereas the Marantz is a Class D based on tweaked Hypex modules. Chalk and cheese in design terms.

As you say, they diverge in transformer use too. And I’m sure they share some parts. I’ve no idea if they are made in the same factory though.