What Hifi component should be the first priority?

[Jasonovich]

My senses are on overload, I'm going to make Pork and Peanut Curry tonight with basmati rice. I hired some Blind People, to do the tasting.
It appears my senses are easily influenced by placebo, oh well, what do I know? 😉

Oh fudge, forgot the corriander, Ah I'll use some parsley.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

You all know the rules about getting personal.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

My senses are on overload, I'm going to make Pork and Peanut Curry tonight with basmati rice. I hired some Blind People, to do the tasting.
It appears my senses are easily influenced by placebo, oh well, what do I know? 😉

Oh fudge, forgot the corriander, Ah I'll use some parsley.

There's a wealth of evidence showing that expecting bias and placebo are very real. Especially in acoustics.

 

[davidf]

There's a wealth of evidence showing that expecting bias and placebo are very real. Especially in acoustics.

Doesn't mean it can be used every time someone hears a difference.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Doesn't mean it can be used every time someone hears a difference.

I think you mean "every time someone *thinks* they hear a difference in subjective listening". And yes it can - that's the whole point - subjective listening in inherently flawed due to these psychoacoustic phenomenon.

And this is especially significant with things like DACs where they tend to measure with completely flat frequency responses and very low levels of distortion. With loudspeakers and headphones there are clear frequency response differences between different speakers/headphones, and even between different units of the same speaker/headphone there can be differences. But DACs are flat and distortion so much lower.

 

[matthewpianist]

It's quite fitting that you own AVI speakers, as you seem to take a similar line to Ashley James, who was a frequent contributor to this forum light years ago.

Ultimately, it's subjective listening that matters most, because it's central to how a person enjoys their choice of music on their chosen system. To most of us, the science doesn't matter all that much, as long as we enjoy what we are hearing. It may well be that there is little difference in the DAC chips themselves, but in the analogue circuitry that comes post-conversion there is plenty of room for variation, before that signal even reaches the outputs of the DAC.

 

[Jasonovich]

There's a wealth of evidence showing that expecting bias and placebo are very real. Especially in acoustics.

I accept this can be a factor, how much colours your perception (?), don't know; but no one on this thread has shown evidence that placebo is a permanent state.

Listening to your new HiFi will have all the gloss and confirmation bias, initially. Extensive listening, once all the authora has worn off, should give you a true measure of the sound.

Dealerships who allow you to hold onto the gear, for several days would be an ideal scenario but who does that? Maybe they can have some kind of a rental scheme, to allow potential purchasers a little more time to evaluate the gear.

While I accept, 'expecting bias and placebo are very real', may have a presence, I also feel too much credence is given over to this and not enough credit to actual listening. The human brain is far more apt in deciphering changes in tonality and the essence of the sound.

In most cases you get what you paid for, people who own low res systems may not see the improvements hence their inclination towards the doctrine of placebo and expectation bias. I'm not pitching stones in someones garden, only trying to rationalise the root of disparity in peoples opinions.

Anyway, we're never going to agree, so lets agree to disagree 🙂

 

[Revolutions]

From a scientific perspective, you are all correct @davidf @ToppingSMSL @Jasonovich

I believe the technical term is: "it depends"

That said, I'm with Topping on this one - subjective experience over everything. Think about how many lies your brain tells you on a daily basis that you fundamentally believe against all actual evidence to the contrary.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

It's quite fitting that you own AVI speakers, as you seem to take a similar line to Ashley James, who was a frequent contributor to this forum light years ago.

Ultimately, it's subjective listening that matters most, because it's central to how a person enjoys their choice of music on their chosen system. To most of us, the science doesn't matter all that much, as long as we enjoy what we are hearing. It may well be that there is little difference in the DAC chips themselves, but in the analogue circuitry that comes post-conversion there is plenty of room for variation, before that signal even reaches the outputs of the DAC.

I'll ignore your first paragraph as it's an ad hominem attack.

That's an argument that doesn't really make sense. Subjective comparisons are no good. That's not the same as out normal listening to music where we will get subjective enjoyment from the music. Subjective listening comparisons of equipment will just through up wrong results due to phycological biases. The output voltage of two DACs will more than likely be different, making one louder than the other. Why would it "matter the most" that you subjectively chose one in a listening test because it sounded more detailed and dynamic simply because it was louder? It doesn't make sense to think that comparison was anything other than wrongly executed.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

I accept this can be a factor, how much colours your perception (?), don't know; but no one on this thread has shown evidence that placebo is a permanent state.

We tend to compare things briefly and then that's it. Some people still think cables make a difference. Placebo and expectation / confirmation bias is real.

With DACs the output voltages can be different which affects volume. And we know volume is a factor in listening tests - people tend to prefer the louder one. So subjective comparisons of DACs - which have the same flat frequency responses as each other - are seriously flawed and there's no way around that.

Blind, volume matched testing is harder to do so most people don't do it. It's a pain in the ass to do. But it's the only way to compare products properly.

 

[Jasonovich]

Some people still think cables make a difference.

Cables........................🤣 You're not alone in your opinion/facts (delete as appropriate)
But................
.......Ok little voice in my head told me to zip it........
..........Have a great day!

 

[Al ears]

Cables........................🤣 You're not alone in your opinion/facts (delete as appropriate)
But................
.......Ok little voice in my head told me to zip it........
..........Have a great day!,

They may indeed make a difference but this has nothing to do with the OPs question

 

[Jasonovich]

They may indeed make a difference but this has nothing to do with the OPs question

Yes I know, the OP is me! 😅

 

[Al ears]

Yes I know, the OP is me! 😅

I rest my case....

 

[Friesiansam]

I know the rules but, if the OP doesn't mind a thread going off on a tangent, does it really matter?

On the forum on which I am most active, Bit-Tech, it happens all the time and, nobody minds.

 

[Al ears]

I know the rules but, if the OP doesn't mind a thread going off on a tangent, does it really matter?

On the forum on which I am most active, Bit-Tech, it happens all the time and, nobody minds.

No problem at all but unusual to see the OP himself taking a thread off topic, they are usually the ones trying to keep it on track.... 🙂

 

[Jasonovich]

No problem at all but unusual to see the OP himself taking a thread off topic, they are usually the ones trying to keep it on track.... 🙂

Both of you I share your sentiment, I have a tendency to branch out and actually grateful that someone can steer me back to base.
Nice to have a sheep dog chase me back into the pen......Baa 😂
Of course, let's stick to the topic and apologies 🙂

 

[Revolutions]

@Jasonovich takes a thread exactly where he means to.

 

[Jasonovich]

@Jasonovich takes a thread exactly where he means to.

🤣

 

[matthewpianist]

I'll ignore your first paragraph as it's an ad hominem attack.

That's an argument that doesn't really make sense. Subjective comparisons are no good. That's not the same as out normal listening to music where we will get subjective enjoyment from the music. Subjective listening comparisons of equipment will just through up wrong results due to phycological biases. The output voltage of two DACs will more than likely be different, making one louder than the other. Why would it "matter the most" that you subjectively chose one in a listening test because it sounded more detailed and dynamic simply because it was louder? It doesn't make sense to think that comparison was anything other than wrongly executed.

No attack intended.

As for the rest, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but that’s all it is.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

No attack intended.

As for the rest, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but that’s all it is.

The scientific stuff is not just opinion.

 

[Jasonovich]

The scientific stuff is not just opinion.

I don’t mean to interject but for the purpose of clarity because it should be noted that you have on many occasions stated it’s a scientific fact, I am curious and could you elucidate further, and my question to you;

Who in the scientific community has signed up to this mandate within the fellowship of scientist that this has been decreed as a universal fact?

Ha ha, I'm just being mischievous, but please feel free to answer, if you choose to. 🙂

 

[ToppingSMSL]

I don’t mean to interject but for the purpose of clarity because it should be noted that you have on many occasions stated it’s a scientific fact, I am curious and could you elucidate further, and my question to you;

Who in the scientific community has signed up to this mandate within the fellowship of scientist that this has been decreed as a universal fact?

Ha ha, I'm just being mischievous, but please feel free to answer, if you choose to. 🙂

Which points in particular are you questioning?

 

[Revolutions]

Next you’ll be saying there aren’t any tiny people living inside the tv.

 

[Jasonovich]

Which points in particular are you questioning?

Every point you stated as a fact.