The integrity of the data piped down a hdmi cable can measured by a device called a BER (bit error rate) the lower the error rate the better the picture in theory.....Be great if cables could be judged on the results of a ber test
Sc00bied00
Well-known member
Well, if it's not right, we try and try again. It's all in the name of Home Entertainment, people have lost the sense of fun and trying out new things, sorry for having an opinion and putting my two cents in.
ElectroMan
Well-known member
Fisual seem to be AudioVisual Online's own brand:
http://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/manufacturer/33/fisual
Also see:
http://fisual.com/index.html
(some interesting comments under the 'Why Fisual?' link!)
Their top-of-the-range HDMI is around £80.
http://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/manufacturer/33/fisual
Also see:
http://fisual.com/index.html
(some interesting comments under the 'Why Fisual?' link!)
Their top-of-the-range HDMI is around £80.
Sc00bied00
Well-known member
Rorschach:Well, if it's not right, we try and try again. It's all in the name of Home Entertainment, people have lost the sense of fun and trying out new things, sorry for having an opinion and putting my two cents in.
Rorschach, if my last post felt like a kick in the nether regions - apology.
This industry soaks up honest hard working peoples money readily, there are a lot who jump on the bandwagon with inferior products, IMHO magazines such as WHF provide a review on the products they are provided, they are honest and unbiased, and I would hope they guide people into making an informed decision towards something which can provide a fun and entertaining visual/musical system. I would love to be able to experiment as you say, part of the fun. I usually research well before parting with my readies, this is both on positive and negative aspects of the product. Based on this I make my own mind up, and where I can, I will go to a local dealer to finalise via an audition, my preference is to support the local store as their customer support can be invaluable.
As per the post below, audiovisual is selling Fisual HDMI Cable at various prices, play are £18 for a 1m length of the QED (tried tested and rated) RRP for £50.
Perhaps the WHF team might consider a review on this cable.
Cheers - sc00bie
Rorschach, if my last post felt like a kick in the nether regions - apology.
This industry soaks up honest hard working peoples money readily, there are a lot who jump on the bandwagon with inferior products, IMHO magazines such as WHF provide a review on the products they are provided, they are honest and unbiased, and I would hope they guide people into making an informed decision towards something which can provide a fun and entertaining visual/musical system. I would love to be able to experiment as you say, part of the fun. I usually research well before parting with my readies, this is both on positive and negative aspects of the product. Based on this I make my own mind up, and where I can, I will go to a local dealer to finalise via an audition, my preference is to support the local store as their customer support can be invaluable.
As per the post below, audiovisual is selling Fisual HDMI Cable at various prices, play are £18 for a 1m length of the QED (tried tested and rated) RRP for £50.
Perhaps the WHF team might consider a review on this cable.
Cheers - sc00bie
professorhat
Well-known member
Sc00bied00:Hmmm. think that could be like opening a can of worms... what appears perfect on paper may not be perfect when inserted into a system. I'm sure years ago there was testing done based on hifi interconnects regarding their electrical and mechanical properties, and am sure that there were some surprises in there too whne added to a reference system. IMHO, only way to find out is by using in your own system and reviewing for yourself....
If only everyone could think like this, we wouldn't have a cable argument every 10 seconds!
If only everyone could think like this, we wouldn't have a cable argument every 10 seconds!
Sc00bied00:Hmmm. think that could be like opening a can of worms... what appears perfect on paper may not be perfect when inserted into a system. I'm sure years ago there was testing done based on hifi interconnects regarding their electrical and mechanical properties, and am sure that there were some surprises in there too whne added to a reference system. IMHO, only way to find out is by using in your own system and reviewing for yourself....
I have, But Im after a highly regarded hi fi magazine to publish THIER results as finding any online is near impossible.
Ive personally tried a Molex, QED, Chord Silver and top of the range wireworld.
I have, But Im after a highly regarded hi fi magazine to publish THIER results as finding any online is near impossible.
Ive personally tried a Molex, QED, Chord Silver and top of the range wireworld.
Sc00bied00
Well-known member
aliEnRIK:
Sc00bied00:Hmmm. think that could be like opening a can of worms... what appears perfect on paper may not be perfect when inserted into a system. I'm sure years ago there was testing done based on hifi interconnects regarding their electrical and mechanical properties, and am sure that there were some surprises in there too whne added to a reference system. IMHO, only way to find out is by using in your own system and reviewing for yourself....
I have, But Im after a highly regarded hi fi magazine to publish THIER results as finding any online is near impossible.
Ive personally tried a Molex, QED, Chord Silver and top of the range wireworld.
Ok so the mag produces measured results on 2 cables, similar price, diff maufacturers, one sucks the other shines, put into the system the paper reference one sounds rubbish and the the other that is abismal on paper shines. What would you do ? ......listen to both and make up your own mind is my thinking. Its subjective and down to an individual on how they perceive the audio or visual. Secondly a system is the synergy of the components and how they interact, a cable can IMHO make or break this especially where lengths are involved. If you have had the opportunity to listen to low, mid and high end cables in a single system, your ears / eyes should be telling you what is right for you, that said, opinions / reviews count for the products you might want to short list, whittling the choice down in a very large market.
I'm gonna bite my tongue now cause like professorhat says regarding the arguements every 10 secs...
Cheers sc00bie
Sc00bied00:Hmmm. think that could be like opening a can of worms... what appears perfect on paper may not be perfect when inserted into a system. I'm sure years ago there was testing done based on hifi interconnects regarding their electrical and mechanical properties, and am sure that there were some surprises in there too whne added to a reference system. IMHO, only way to find out is by using in your own system and reviewing for yourself....
I have, But Im after a highly regarded hi fi magazine to publish THIER results as finding any online is near impossible.
Ive personally tried a Molex, QED, Chord Silver and top of the range wireworld.
Ok so the mag produces measured results on 2 cables, similar price, diff maufacturers, one sucks the other shines, put into the system the paper reference one sounds rubbish and the the other that is abismal on paper shines. What would you do ? ......listen to both and make up your own mind is my thinking. Its subjective and down to an individual on how they perceive the audio or visual. Secondly a system is the synergy of the components and how they interact, a cable can IMHO make or break this especially where lengths are involved. If you have had the opportunity to listen to low, mid and high end cables in a single system, your ears / eyes should be telling you what is right for you, that said, opinions / reviews count for the products you might want to short list, whittling the choice down in a very large market.
I'm gonna bite my tongue now cause like professorhat says regarding the arguements every 10 secs...
Cheers sc00bie
I always say I'll never speak on this subject but it never ceases to make me laugh. To me it is a ridiculous situation when some people are going out and buying £1-200 digital cables and saying they make a huge difference when others say there is no difference from the freebie. What the industry isÿunwittinglyÿdoing is destroying itself. If confidence is so low that there is a debate on here on a daily basis why are we not seeing some kind of ramification? To me it's daylight robbery.
Sc00bied00:aliEnRIK:
Sc00bied00:Hmmm. think that could be like opening a can of worms... what appears perfect on paper may not be perfect when inserted into a system. I'm sure years ago there was testing done based on hifi interconnects regarding their electrical and mechanical properties, and am sure that there were some surprises in there too whne added to a reference system. IMHO, only way to find out is by using in your own system and reviewing for yourself....
I have, But Im after a highly regarded hi fi magazine to publish THIER results as finding any online is near impossible.
Ive personally tried a Molex, QED, Chord Silver and top of the range wireworld.
Ok so the mag produces measured results on 2 cables, similar price, diff maufacturers, one sucks the other shines, put into the system the paper reference one sounds rubbish and the the other that is abismal on paper shines. What would you do ? ......listen to both and make up your own mind is my thinking. Its subjective and down to an individual on how they perceive the audio or visual. Secondly a system is the synergy of the components and how they interact, a cable can IMHO make or break this especially where lengths are involved. If you have had the opportunity to listen to low, mid and high end cables in a single system, your ears / eyes should be telling you what is right for you, that said, opinions / reviews count for the products you might want to short list, whittling the choice down in a very large market.
I'm gonna bite my tongue now cause like professorhat says regarding the arguements every 10 secs...
Cheers sc00bie
Clearly that report would NEVER happen (Unless the hdmi was seriously flawed in some way)
Im asking for a team of 10 or 20 people to take part in each blind test when they review hdmi cables. If they think (Even subconsciously) thats theres a difference then let them publish the blind test results. Im not asking for HUGH differences, just ANY on record.
I found a difference between the 2 lower priced ones to the 2 higher priced ones using just one upscaled dvd which I had several scenes I used to test with (Picture only). Now im not doing anymore tests as the Pioneer tvs hdmi ports have started to become a little loose, so im doing no more tests personally.
All im asking for is Claire to let us know how the blind tests went that she mentioned on the 1st page and would they please consider publishing all blind tests in the furture when rating hdmi cables. If its REALLY true that theres no difference (except under long distances) then all cables over 20 quid should get 1 star for 3 meters and under as theyre HEAVILY overpriced.
If the results do at least partially point to differences, then at least we have something to look at and consider.
I personally believe its not JUST down to the cables but down to the person and the equipment used. I have a Pioneer 42" plasma, still regarded as one of the best 42"tvs in existence, powered with braided mains cables and goes through an Isotek filter. MY eyesight is perfect, but some of my friends cant even tell the difference between SD and HIDEF when played back to back (So theyd have NO chance in a hdmi blind test)
Ive had various arguments (debate
) on various forums. One in particular fascinated me. 4 forum users got together to blind test 3 interconnect cables. 2 were believers, 2 said they made NO difference (Before taking part I mean).
The results were ~ the none believers COULDNT tell a difference, but the believers COULD. Which indicates (obviously) that some people can perceive better than others (better hearing if you will) . But the BLIND tests would put that at 50/50 (Meaning anyone from outside the forum who didnt know these guys would think that it was ALL to chance and therefore (In this test), it wasnt 'proven' wether or not interconnects DO make a difference.
The ideal blind test would go as follows. Choose 100 people in various tests. Take the top 10% of people that CAN tell a difference (On paper at least). use THOSE 10 for all future tests, THEN we shall see if theres really a difference or not........
Sc00bied00:Hmmm. think that could be like opening a can of worms... what appears perfect on paper may not be perfect when inserted into a system. I'm sure years ago there was testing done based on hifi interconnects regarding their electrical and mechanical properties, and am sure that there were some surprises in there too whne added to a reference system. IMHO, only way to find out is by using in your own system and reviewing for yourself....
I have, But Im after a highly regarded hi fi magazine to publish THIER results as finding any online is near impossible.
Ive personally tried a Molex, QED, Chord Silver and top of the range wireworld.
Ok so the mag produces measured results on 2 cables, similar price, diff maufacturers, one sucks the other shines, put into the system the paper reference one sounds rubbish and the the other that is abismal on paper shines. What would you do ? ......listen to both and make up your own mind is my thinking. Its subjective and down to an individual on how they perceive the audio or visual. Secondly a system is the synergy of the components and how they interact, a cable can IMHO make or break this especially where lengths are involved. If you have had the opportunity to listen to low, mid and high end cables in a single system, your ears / eyes should be telling you what is right for you, that said, opinions / reviews count for the products you might want to short list, whittling the choice down in a very large market.
I'm gonna bite my tongue now cause like professorhat says regarding the arguements every 10 secs...
Cheers sc00bie
Clearly that report would NEVER happen (Unless the hdmi was seriously flawed in some way)
Im asking for a team of 10 or 20 people to take part in each blind test when they review hdmi cables. If they think (Even subconsciously) thats theres a difference then let them publish the blind test results. Im not asking for HUGH differences, just ANY on record.
I found a difference between the 2 lower priced ones to the 2 higher priced ones using just one upscaled dvd which I had several scenes I used to test with (Picture only). Now im not doing anymore tests as the Pioneer tvs hdmi ports have started to become a little loose, so im doing no more tests personally.
All im asking for is Claire to let us know how the blind tests went that she mentioned on the 1st page and would they please consider publishing all blind tests in the furture when rating hdmi cables. If its REALLY true that theres no difference (except under long distances) then all cables over 20 quid should get 1 star for 3 meters and under as theyre HEAVILY overpriced.
If the results do at least partially point to differences, then at least we have something to look at and consider.
I personally believe its not JUST down to the cables but down to the person and the equipment used. I have a Pioneer 42" plasma, still regarded as one of the best 42"tvs in existence, powered with braided mains cables and goes through an Isotek filter. MY eyesight is perfect, but some of my friends cant even tell the difference between SD and HIDEF when played back to back (So theyd have NO chance in a hdmi blind test)
Ive had various arguments (debate
) on various forums. One in particular fascinated me. 4 forum users got together to blind test 3 interconnect cables. 2 were believers, 2 said they made NO difference (Before taking part I mean).The results were ~ the none believers COULDNT tell a difference, but the believers COULD. Which indicates (obviously) that some people can perceive better than others (better hearing if you will) . But the BLIND tests would put that at 50/50 (Meaning anyone from outside the forum who didnt know these guys would think that it was ALL to chance and therefore (In this test), it wasnt 'proven' wether or not interconnects DO make a difference.
The ideal blind test would go as follows. Choose 100 people in various tests. Take the top 10% of people that CAN tell a difference (On paper at least). use THOSE 10 for all future tests, THEN we shall see if theres really a difference or not........
Cofnchtr
Well-known member
Hi,
Alienrik - what you are asking to happen re blind testing - is that not what the magazine is doing already?
AFAIK, people that can tell the difference are sitting down, blind testing on the same equipment (therefore no differences can be down to different screen set up or BD players etc) with the only difference being the HDMI cable. They aren't told which cable is which and they publish the results - x cable is better than y cable...
Cheers,
Cofnchtr.
Alienrik - what you are asking to happen re blind testing - is that not what the magazine is doing already?
AFAIK, people that can tell the difference are sitting down, blind testing on the same equipment (therefore no differences can be down to different screen set up or BD players etc) with the only difference being the HDMI cable. They aren't told which cable is which and they publish the results - x cable is better than y cable...
Cheers,
Cofnchtr.
Cofnchtr:Hi,
Alienrik - what you are asking to happen re blind testing - is that not what the magazine is doing already?
Cheers,
Cofnchtr.
Im asking for the FULL double blind test results and what theyre were compared against. And the different people who compared (As explained above, some people CAN tell differences, others cant)
All ive seen in WHAT HI FI mag are marks out of 5, not how they got there.
Dont get me wrong, Im a HUGH fan of the mag, been buying it on and off since around 91. But clearly HDMI is a massive sticking point for everyone. And if the guys here do proper blind tests, then im dying to see the results of them (As im sure THOUSANDS of others are too). The problem is that 5 years ago, theyd give something 5 stars and most people would have been happy with that. Now theyre giving 5 stars to a digital HDMI cable which so far no one has truly 'proven' to be any better than one off ebay for 3 quid, and as were in the 'age of the internet', news travels FAST.
Personally, my faith would be somewhat restored if said results were published as thoroughly as possible...........
Alienrik - what you are asking to happen re blind testing - is that not what the magazine is doing already?
Cheers,
Cofnchtr.
Im asking for the FULL double blind test results and what theyre were compared against. And the different people who compared (As explained above, some people CAN tell differences, others cant)
All ive seen in WHAT HI FI mag are marks out of 5, not how they got there.
Dont get me wrong, Im a HUGH fan of the mag, been buying it on and off since around 91. But clearly HDMI is a massive sticking point for everyone. And if the guys here do proper blind tests, then im dying to see the results of them (As im sure THOUSANDS of others are too). The problem is that 5 years ago, theyd give something 5 stars and most people would have been happy with that. Now theyre giving 5 stars to a digital HDMI cable which so far no one has truly 'proven' to be any better than one off ebay for 3 quid, and as were in the 'age of the internet', news travels FAST.
Personally, my faith would be somewhat restored if said results were published as thoroughly as possible...........
OK, next time we do an HDMI test, you can see a very boring photocopy of a set of columns with ticks/crosses on!
Cofnchtr
Well-known member
Hi,
Why the complete breakdown on HDMI cables and not on receivers or TV's?
I don't see what difference knowing who tested the cables makes?
Am I getting this correctly? You want each reviewer who takes part in these blind tests to write a summary of their views and this to be published? But only for HDMI cables?
You trust their collective judgement on every other piece of equipment except HDMI cables?
Most important thing here is DO YOU see a difference? If not, buy the cheap one. End of argument for you.
Cheers,
Cofnchtr.
Why the complete breakdown on HDMI cables and not on receivers or TV's?
I don't see what difference knowing who tested the cables makes?
Am I getting this correctly? You want each reviewer who takes part in these blind tests to write a summary of their views and this to be published? But only for HDMI cables?
You trust their collective judgement on every other piece of equipment except HDMI cables?
Most important thing here is DO YOU see a difference? If not, buy the cheap one. End of argument for you.
Cheers,
Cofnchtr.
Cofnchtr:Hi,
Why the complete breakdown on HDMI cables and not on receivers or TV's?
I don't see what difference knowing who tested the cables makes?
Am I getting this correctly? You want each reviewer who takes part in these blind tests to write a summary of their views and this to be published? But only for HDMI cables?
You trust their collective judgement on every other piece of equipment except HDMI cables?
Most important thing here is DO YOU see a difference? If not, buy the cheap one. End of argument for you.
Cheers,
Cofnchtr.
Ive done my own tests (Which ive said already)
I think your all missing the point. Do a google search and try to find ONE.....JUST one article that PROVES more expensive hdmis make a difference. All I found were makes like Monster who decided to plug in a composite lead to make their hdmi look better (really not good). And some results of cables over 12 meters long etc (Which just proved they do have a CLIFF EDGE). I couldnt find one and Ive REALLY looked.
ALL im asking for is, as Claire has now said she WILL be posting ~ (Thank you Claire
), ACTUAL results on testing hdmi cables. No more, no less.
If you think im alone on this subject your very VERY much mistaken, Surely its in the magazines best interest to look out for its readers?
Cof ~ why are you so absolutely adamant that WHF SHOULDNT post the results? "You trust their collective judgement on every other piece of equipment except HDMI cables?". Pretty much yes............THATS why i'd love to see the results
Why the complete breakdown on HDMI cables and not on receivers or TV's?
I don't see what difference knowing who tested the cables makes?
Am I getting this correctly? You want each reviewer who takes part in these blind tests to write a summary of their views and this to be published? But only for HDMI cables?
You trust their collective judgement on every other piece of equipment except HDMI cables?
Most important thing here is DO YOU see a difference? If not, buy the cheap one. End of argument for you.
Cheers,
Cofnchtr.
Ive done my own tests (Which ive said already)
I think your all missing the point. Do a google search and try to find ONE.....JUST one article that PROVES more expensive hdmis make a difference. All I found were makes like Monster who decided to plug in a composite lead to make their hdmi look better (really not good). And some results of cables over 12 meters long etc (Which just proved they do have a CLIFF EDGE). I couldnt find one and Ive REALLY looked.
ALL im asking for is, as Claire has now said she WILL be posting ~ (Thank you Claire
If you think im alone on this subject your very VERY much mistaken, Surely its in the magazines best interest to look out for its readers?
Cof ~ why are you so absolutely adamant that WHF SHOULDNT post the results? "You trust their collective judgement on every other piece of equipment except HDMI cables?". Pretty much yes............THATS why i'd love to see the results
Cofnchtr
Well-known member
Hi Alienrik,
I am not against them posting results - just wondering why you accept their collective judgement on the likes of TV comparisons I.E. you haven't asked to see results - yet you have with HDMI cables.
You are asking them to prove their opinions to you yet you say you already know some people can't see any difference.
To see a copy of a 'tick sheet' will prove nothing other than what the tester alleges he or she has seen. This will neither prove nor disprove whether the cable has made any difference as it's the eyesight and perception of the tester.
That's what the testing does - lets you know what the reviewers think of the products. I don't think they go all scientific measuring whether or not the contrast ratio of a certain TV is actually 10,000-1 or the like - they give their opinion and it's up to those who read the magazine to act or not to act on that opinion. If you disagree with their opinion (which of course you are entitled to do) you won't buy that particular product. I don't see what you will gain by asking to see who saw more red/green or blue in a film or which part of a soundtrack sounds cleaner with cable x against cable y.
I do not work for the magazine nor do I sell hi-fi/home cinema goods so I have nothing to gain or lose by the publishing of the test sheet. I just don't see what it will prove as it's all to do with each individuals opinion.
Re-reading your post - it seems you want to ensure the same testers are conducting the reviews to show different cables produce different results rather than actually proving different cables make any difference at all?
P.S. I may be wrong but I think Clare had her finger on the 'sarcasm' button during that post?
Cheers,
Cofnchtr.
I am not against them posting results - just wondering why you accept their collective judgement on the likes of TV comparisons I.E. you haven't asked to see results - yet you have with HDMI cables.
You are asking them to prove their opinions to you yet you say you already know some people can't see any difference.
To see a copy of a 'tick sheet' will prove nothing other than what the tester alleges he or she has seen. This will neither prove nor disprove whether the cable has made any difference as it's the eyesight and perception of the tester.
That's what the testing does - lets you know what the reviewers think of the products. I don't think they go all scientific measuring whether or not the contrast ratio of a certain TV is actually 10,000-1 or the like - they give their opinion and it's up to those who read the magazine to act or not to act on that opinion. If you disagree with their opinion (which of course you are entitled to do) you won't buy that particular product. I don't see what you will gain by asking to see who saw more red/green or blue in a film or which part of a soundtrack sounds cleaner with cable x against cable y.
I do not work for the magazine nor do I sell hi-fi/home cinema goods so I have nothing to gain or lose by the publishing of the test sheet. I just don't see what it will prove as it's all to do with each individuals opinion.
Re-reading your post - it seems you want to ensure the same testers are conducting the reviews to show different cables produce different results rather than actually proving different cables make any difference at all?
P.S. I may be wrong but I think Clare had her finger on the 'sarcasm' button during that post?
Cheers,
Cofnchtr.
Yes she did, as did I
Cof
Its VERY simple. A properly constructed double blind test will give results to those that CAN tell a difference. So if say Claire and andrew 'think' they can. Then given a few tests to do, id assume theyd get at least 80% of the same answers (cable A being better than cable B for instance)
If its no better than 50/50 then we're right back where we started (And I'll REALLY start to question any digital cable reviews in the future). Hence why I want people with VERY good perception taking said tests.
Ive done speaker cable tests etc myself. Those were impossible to NOT tell a difference, so im not going to question those. But hdmi is a completely different kettle of fish. Its all 1,s and 0,s with a definite CLIFF EDGE limit, but before that nothing else has been proven for sure that theres a difference. meaning WHF,s marks out of 5 are pretty much meaningless if they dont have the statistics to back them up (Which is the whole point of why I (And MANY many others) would like them)
In all honesty. Say there is no difference (I personally think there is, but still.....), a 3 quid cable performs EXACTLY the same as a 250 quid one. What star rating does the 250 quid one get? 4 stars because it performs the same but has 'high build quality'? Id give it 1 star personally...........
Cof
Its VERY simple. A properly constructed double blind test will give results to those that CAN tell a difference. So if say Claire and andrew 'think' they can. Then given a few tests to do, id assume theyd get at least 80% of the same answers (cable A being better than cable B for instance)
If its no better than 50/50 then we're right back where we started (And I'll REALLY start to question any digital cable reviews in the future). Hence why I want people with VERY good perception taking said tests.
Ive done speaker cable tests etc myself. Those were impossible to NOT tell a difference, so im not going to question those. But hdmi is a completely different kettle of fish. Its all 1,s and 0,s with a definite CLIFF EDGE limit, but before that nothing else has been proven for sure that theres a difference. meaning WHF,s marks out of 5 are pretty much meaningless if they dont have the statistics to back them up (Which is the whole point of why I (And MANY many others) would like them)
In all honesty. Say there is no difference (I personally think there is, but still.....), a 3 quid cable performs EXACTLY the same as a 250 quid one. What star rating does the 250 quid one get? 4 stars because it performs the same but has 'high build quality'? Id give it 1 star personally...........
I certainly wasn't being sarcastic - more exasperated, to be honest.
We already blind-test cables (ABX) just as described, and all our star ratings are already based on performance per pound - so a pricier cable has to perform significantly better than the best budget ones to gain a decent star rating.
That's why you'll find plenty of pricey cables with low star ratings in our reviews section - they're not necessarily dreadful wires, but they're simply not good value when compared to the class leaders at lower prices.
But, as previously mentioned, i'm happy to publish the results of our next HDMI-fest if it helps!
We already blind-test cables (ABX) just as described, and all our star ratings are already based on performance per pound - so a pricier cable has to perform significantly better than the best budget ones to gain a decent star rating.
That's why you'll find plenty of pricey cables with low star ratings in our reviews section - they're not necessarily dreadful wires, but they're simply not good value when compared to the class leaders at lower prices.
But, as previously mentioned, i'm happy to publish the results of our next HDMI-fest if it helps!
Go back to bed, America, your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed America, your government is in control. Here, here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up, go back to bed America, here is American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their -------- skulls together and congratulate you on the living in the land of freedom. Here you go America - you are free to do what well tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!
Cofnchtr
Well-known member
Clare Newsome:
I certainly wasn't being sarcastic - more exasperated, to be honest.
Hi,
Sorry, I knew frustration was in there somewhere. Didn't think you would print though but glad you are willing to.
Pity everything isn't wireless - no cables to argue about then
Have a good new year - see you next year.
Cheers,
Cofnchtr.
I certainly wasn't being sarcastic - more exasperated, to be honest.
Hi,
Sorry, I knew frustration was in there somewhere. Didn't think you would print though but glad you are willing to.
Pity everything isn't wireless - no cables to argue about then
Have a good new year - see you next year.
Cheers,
Cofnchtr.
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