What file type & media player would you suggest for best possible sound from PC

[SteveR750]

What exactly is WASAPI or ASIO, and how / where do you get it form J River? I can't see it when I search in plug ins for it...

EDIT:

OK I have now found the outputs settings, and have a crude understanding of WASAPI and what it is doing.... I have yet to try the real litmus test if listening through my hi fi system, as I have been away for the weekend. The sound card in my laptop appears to be noticeably better than the ones I have heard previously, and there is a subtle diffference between WMP and J River set to WASAPI event style, and set up to exclusively use the hardware.

I have also checked both boxes in the Windows control panel for exclusive operation of the sound card. I have left the default format to DVD 48KHz setting, as this made no difference sonically (see caveats above) nor operation.

However, WMP will now not work reliably, which may or not be a problem. I have also noticed that the library in J River is a mess. On all of the imported albums in WAV it has split tracks out into separate albums - some albums are duplicated several times, and although the artworks is present for all, only one has the title and artist, the other "albums" that only contain one or two tracks are classified as unknown. I wasa looking for a way to merge them, but its no obvious at first sight. It doesn't happen on the imported wma files, so the tagging problems with WAV are I suspect the issue (though this problem is not present in the WMP library). I will try converting all wav files to wma (then both programmes can read them) since there is no quality difference between wma and FLAC as far as I have read / deduced, someone please tell me if I am wrong here.

I was also asking J River to analyse the audio but after several hours of letting it complete about 1/3 of the files I stopped it so that I could try some other things out -am not sure what it is doing in the process - checking for errors? I am also not sure whether to set up the WASAPI mode for the optical out only, per this instruction:

http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/MC14/MC_Wasapi.htm

Anyway, this evening I will be able to connect up my hi fi system and conduct some accurate listening tests. I think I am going to continue ripping using WMP, since wma files work in both players, and its quick, though I have no idea how accurate the rip is of course, but so far EAC and dBpoweramp are impractical (no tagging, and far too slow respectively).

I will report back later......!

 

[Gerrardasnails]

SteveR750:
What exactly is WASAPI or ASIO, and how / where do you get it form J River? I can't see it when I search in plug ins for it...

EDIT:

OK I have now found the outputs settings, and have a crude understanding of WASAPI and what it is doing.... I have yet to try the real litmus test if listening through my hi fi system, as I have been away for the weekend. The sound card in my laptop appears to be noticeably better than the ones I have heard previously, and there is a subtle diffference between WMP and J River set to WASAPI event style, and set up to exclusively use the hardware.

I have also checked both boxes in the Windows control panel for exclusive operation of the sound card. I have left the default format to DVD 48KHz setting, as this made no difference sonically (see caveats above) nor operation.

However, WMP will now not work reliably, which may or not be a problem. I have also noticed that the library in J River is a mess. On all of the imported albums in WAV it has split tracks out into separate albums - some albums are duplicated several times, and although the artworks is present for all, only one has the title and artist, the other "albums" that only contain one or two tracks are classified as unknown. I wasa looking for a way to merge them, but its no obvious at first sight. It doesn't happen on the imported wma files, so the tagging problems with WAV are I suspect the issue (though this problem is not present in the WMP library). I will try converting all wav files to wma (then both programmes can read them) since there is no quality difference between wma and FLAC as far as I have read / deduced, someone please tell me if I am wrong here.

I was also asking J River to analyse the audio but after several hours of letting it complete about 1/3 of the files I stopped it so that I could try some other things out -am not sure what it is doing in the process - checking for errors? I am also not sure whether to set up the WASAPI mode for the optical out only, per this instruction:

http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/MC14/MC_Wasapi.htm

Anyway, this evening I will be able to connect up my hi fi system and conduct some accurate listening tests. I think I am going to continue ripping using WMP, since wma files work in both players, and its quick, though I have no idea how accurate the rip is of course, but so far EAC and dBpoweramp are impractical (no tagging, and far too slow respectively).

I will report back later......!

My opinion only of course: if you find WMP good for ripping, continue. I would then use dBpoweramp to convert to FLAC. When using J River, use the ASIO or WASAPI drivers - this will give you bitperfectness!! As for the library, once you are set up, everything works fine. I can post my settings later today if you want.

 

[SteveR750]

Thanks Gerrard, I am ripping with J River into FLAC to see how that compares. I cannot whatever I do get the library to fix itself. I have convrted all WAV files into FLAC, and still all of the those albums are fragmented! For example, I have a John Mayall album that I ripped with WMP into WAV, and imported into J River. It is displayed in the J River library as 11 albums, each with the same name and art cover! It has somehow lost the file structure, but when I look in windows explorer, the track files are sat neatly in the album folder.......

 

[Gerrardasnails]

SteveR750:Thanks Gerrard, I am ripping with J River into FLAC to see how that compares. I cannot whatever I do get the library to fix itself. I have convrted all WAV files into FLAC, and still all of the those albums are fragmented! For example, I have a John Mayall album that I ripped with WMP into WAV, and imported into J River. It is displayed in the J River library as 11 albums, each with the same name and art cover! It has somehow lost the file structure, but when I look in windows explorer, the track files are sat neatly in the album folder.......

Right first of all, are you using the Media Center or the jukebox? If it's the MC, on the left hand pane you will see albums, artists, files etc. When I click on 'files', I get the same as you explained. However, if I click on 'albums' or 'artists' it looks much better and how you would want it to look (I'd imagine).

You can also highlight an album, right click and click 'tag'. You can then add some details. If you are happy with what is in the original folder, you can right click and click library tools and then fill from properties from filename.

Have a play with it...

 

[SteveR750]

OK I have cleaned up the folder as it had imported the WMP library and the itunes folder, and.... you get the picture.

I have indeed been using the album and artist displays, but the one gripe is that it doesnt handle compilation albums well - I just ripped one using J Rivers in FLAC and its arranging them in <artist> <album> order in Album view. I can see that it has ripped the file in that sequence. Yet an imported WMA album also a compilation, and with the same filename sequence is showing all tracks under the one album cover!

Its good, but seamless its not, yet anyway. It makes the album view useless (as I have a whole page of Best Rock Album Ever albums...) I have managed a quick listen to some tracks in WASAPI event style setting, bit depth set to 24 same as the DACmagic, and exclusive use of the optical driver. Sounded very lush indeed, so; so far so good.

Any tips on managing the compilation album problem..??

 

[Gerrardasnails]

SteveR750:
OK I have cleaned up the folder as it had imported the WMP library and the itunes folder, and.... you get the picture.

I have indeed been using the album and artist displays, but the one gripe is that it doesnt handle compilation albums well - I just ripped one using J Rivers in FLAC and its arranging them in <artist> <album> order in Album view. I can see that it has ripped the file in that sequence. Yet an imported WMA album also a compilation, and with the same filename sequence is showing all tracks under the one album cover!

Its good, but seamless its not, yet anyway. It makes the album view useless (as I have a whole page of Best Rock Album Ever albums...) I have managed a quick listen to some tracks in WASAPI event style setting, bit depth set to 24 same as the DACmagic, and exclusive use of the optical driver. Sounded very lush indeed, so; so far so good.

Any tips on managing the compilation album problem..??

I store those sort of albums as Various Artists / Now That's What I Call Music... Etc.

 

[SteveR750]

I think its part of the data in the CD files - one a couple of compilation sets, disc 1 was fine (with various artists in the default filename) wheras disc 2 used the artist name in the same place in the file path...easy enough if time consuming to change. Ripping takes an age though, I have set it to quality of 6 which was the default, not sure how that affects it

 

[SteveR750]

OK, I feel it's time for a summary and results report, if only because anyone else going through the same teething problems might benefit from my experience, and apologies to evveryone else for using up bandwidth....

I now have found a stable process and set up that I want to keep and base my music collection on. I have done some direct A to B comparisons of identical tracks ripped using same programme in same codec, which in this case was WMP and WMA lossless (since I haven't configured WMP to play FLAC files its impossible to check the converse arrangement; i.e. playing a track ripped in J River in FLAC and played on both media players.

In summary, I have found:

Ripping:

WMP is quick, but cannot verify accurcay. Little option to tweak, basically you just get to choose file format of WAV, WMA lossless or standard WMA (lossy)

J River takes about twice as long ripping FLAC files. No obvious error correction (i.e. no check box that says error correction) but there an option to 'verify encoding' whatever that means. I have set the FLAC "quality" to 6, from what i can tell this simply relates to the amount of compression - 1 the least and 8 maximum.

Library

This is one area where WMP is better. It's better at auto labelling, sorting and more accurately locating tracks in the correct album files. The display is good and clear, and I like the way it organises albums clearly in alphabetical order. J River also organises them this way, but its a lot more fussy and condensed (at least the default view is, I haven't tried different skins yet). I have also had to learn how to correctly allocate random tracks back into the correct album folder, as its default filepath is <artist>,<album> which one some compilation discs means you split the album into individual tracks...the only way rouund this I found was to edit the fiilename of each track, and either delete the artist name, or replace with <various artists>

Sound Quality

This is frankly where it becomes obvious which one to use from an audiophile points of view. Once you hav found how to control the optical driver directly with the software, then J River absolutely trounces WMP and itunes for that matter. The difference is like MP3 -> lossless its that big. There is more detail, separation across the whole frequency spectrum, but the upper frequencies shimmer rather than fizz. There is a greater spacial separation of each instrument, with a greater 3D depth to the soundstage. I have mine set to WASAPI event style, bit depth 24 (same as the dacmagic) buffering 50ms. I cannot detect any difference between WASAPI and WASAPI event style, but apparently the latter is better if it works, and helps with USB connection issues (so might be more critical if using the rDAC for example...?). You should also check the allow exclusive use of hardware box.

The other variable is the driver in the PC - in Windows, and in W7 the boxes that allow software to gain exclusive control of the driver is critical. I have experimented with the shared output settings (default is DVD 48KHz) but make no difference at all, which giiven they are the shared i.e. non software controlled its irrelevant to J River. One thing I did notice is that my systme won't work in ASIO mode - I get an error message saying that the device cannot configure in 2 channel 44.1KHz stereo, but it works perfectly fine in WASAPI so I'm not even going to think about it any more (guess it must be a Vista -> W7 progression)

So, only another 250 discs or so to rip and then I have to think about archiving and streaming from a NAS instead of the PC hard drive.....

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Excellent. If you think that you've only been playing around with J River for a couple of days, I'm sure you will sort it so that it works fine for you. Once you are there, you don't need to worry just listen to your music. You should definitely try Theatre Mode (I think it's called) as it looks superb and the interface works really nicely. Also, not sure if you know but any Microsoft Windows Media Center remote control works with J River.

 

[SteveR750]

Gerrardasnails:Excellent. If you think that you've only been playing around with J River for a couple of days, I'm sure you will sort it so that it works fine for you. Once you are there, you don't need to worry just listen to your music. You should definitely try Theatre Mode (I think it's called) as it looks superb and the interface works really nicely. Also, not sure if you know but any Microsoft Windows Media Center remote control works with J River.

Yep!

So does android!

I am aso messing about with the DSP. The soundtage enhancements are a bit pants, but I am using the volume levelling, but what I like about it is that you can then adjust the fixed offset, so not only will all tracks be reduced to the lowest common denominator, you can raise everything by a fixed amount.

I have also used te equaliser to apply a +0.5dB lift at 12K and +1.0dB at 16Khs to offset the room furnishings and tendency for the Spendors to miss that last bit of sparkle at the extreme top end. Since you are adjusting the digital signal then the resultant analogue signal should still be clean - like I said before the analogy is like photo editing: if you adjust in RAW, you retain the original picture quality, but once you have converted to JPG then any adjustment results in artifacts and noise. All in moderation, and so far the results are very impressive indeed. A lot of tracks are missing some breadth of soundstage, then suddenly you play a cross paired acoustic recording and the whole thing snaps into focus. The more I play with J River the more you realise its like comparing Windows Picture Viewer to Adobe Lightroom.....Thank you Gerrard for setting me off down this path!!