I am heartily dissapointed to have discovered that Pioneer is to stop producing Plasma screens under 50 inches, after reading the WHF article. I am also disappointed to learn that none of their screens will be made entirely in house any more, but in collaberation with Panasonic or Sharp. Neither companies have such an illustrious track record as Pioneer's, in particular Sharp, which is no market leader. Pioneers plasma screens will soon only be available those with large rooms and equally large pockets. The legacy of the 428XD will be sorely missed. It will be interesting to see how the ninth generation line up performs. Any thoughts?
What ever happened to Pioneer?
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the important stuff is the computer (processor) i think we are at the stage in production where it doesnt matter who makes the screen (or at least Pioneer has a new reliable supplier). but rather who writes the computer code and chips. So dont't worry too much yet.
Writing the computer code does not explain why Pioneer have decided to drop Plasma under 50" and go LCD. They have obviously decided that the tv buying public are sheep, and like all those nice shiny LCD screens.
professorhat
Well-known member
That's exactly it - the majority of consumers don't trust plasma screens because of the myths surrounding them (look at the number of people who start off on these forums and are vehemently against plasma screens because of screen burn / they've heard you have to "recharge" the gas every few weeks!). Pioneer naturally have to go where the profit is or they'd fold.
From what I have read, Sharp actually have the best LCD technology, and they are Pioneers biggest shareholder. So the fact that Sharp TVs aren't as good as those from Sony and Panasonic suggests that their electronics and/or video processing algorithms aren't as good as the competition.
Hopefully, the combination of Sharp panels and Pioneers picture processing wizardry should be very good indeed.
(Interestingly, Sony recently announced that they will be switching from Samsung to Sharp for their LCD panels, in future).
Hopefully, the combination of Sharp panels and Pioneers picture processing wizardry should be very good indeed.
(Interestingly, Sony recently announced that they will be switching from Samsung to Sharp for their LCD panels, in future).
professorhat:That's exactly it - the majority of consumers don't trust plasma screens because of the myths surrounding them (look at the number of people who start off on these forums and are vehemently against plasma screens because of screen burn / they've heard you have to "recharge" the gas every few weeks!). Pioneer naturally have to go where the profit is or they'd fold.
Great point prof... I had all but ruled out plasma as an option until I joined this forum and now am dissapointed to think that one day plasma TV's simply won't exist. The news of their qualtiy just doesn't seem to have filtered out into the mainstream market, and this means Pioneer need to follow the £'s.
I am hoping that they can produce an LCD to beat all others, or at least that I can pick up a baragin plasma as they finally die out.
Great point prof... I had all but ruled out plasma as an option until I joined this forum and now am dissapointed to think that one day plasma TV's simply won't exist. The news of their qualtiy just doesn't seem to have filtered out into the mainstream market, and this means Pioneer need to follow the £'s.
I am hoping that they can produce an LCD to beat all others, or at least that I can pick up a baragin plasma as they finally die out.
Very true, that. I am a television salesman and there is definately bias among the general public toward LCD technology.
Lewis P:Very true, that. I am a television salesman and there is definately bias among the general public toward LCD technology.
...even though 'plasma' has all but become a generic term for any large flatscreen TV
...even though 'plasma' has all but become a generic term for any large flatscreen TV
Well the burn in myth has literally burned into their profits - pardon the pun! ÿI look at the stock (my profession) and as a shareholder i was actually relieved about their decision. ÿNo matter how much we think Plasma has the best pictures - the economics of making them just doesn't stack up particularly in sizes below 50". ÿThey were just losing too much money. ÿYou cannot really blame them - they have shareholders like me to worry about.
Lewis P:Very true, that. I am a television salesman and there is definately bias among the general public toward LCD technology.Where do you work Dixons???
There are 2 main factors behind why LCD out sell Plasma and they are Firstly that screen sizes below 37"" are only avalible as a LCD and no Plasma alternative, so seeing as 32"" is the most popular screen size accross the board in the UK that wolud help LCD's market share along with smaller sets for Bedrooms etc. Just because more LCD units are sold it does not make it a better product.
Now My Dixons question was not ment to be a POP at you Lewis as I am sure you know your Onions, But the fact remains that the vast majority of the Sales team in Places like Dixons, Comet etc have very little TRUE product knowledge and simply just spout Spec figures ETC and are more concerned about flogging the Extended Warrantry as there is a nice bit of comision in those little bunnies. And they have learnt all they know about the 2 very differant ttype of TVs for their Team Leader who in turn lernt it from his Team Leader etc etc and still to this Day spout utter tosh about Re-gassing Plasmas and shorter Life for a Plasma over a LCD etc etc.
Where as If you go into any respectible AV shop around the Country and give them your demands and needs in you screen, lets say above 37"" and must be good with DVD/BD and Sport, I bet 99% recomend Plasma.
IMHO Plasma TVs are here for the forseeible future, as more and more of us are getting bigger TVs with the advent of HD broadcasts and BD Movies, and for My eyes LCD's just dont compare in overall picture enjoyment to a Plasma.
There are 2 main factors behind why LCD out sell Plasma and they are Firstly that screen sizes below 37"" are only avalible as a LCD and no Plasma alternative, so seeing as 32"" is the most popular screen size accross the board in the UK that wolud help LCD's market share along with smaller sets for Bedrooms etc. Just because more LCD units are sold it does not make it a better product.
Now My Dixons question was not ment to be a POP at you Lewis as I am sure you know your Onions, But the fact remains that the vast majority of the Sales team in Places like Dixons, Comet etc have very little TRUE product knowledge and simply just spout Spec figures ETC and are more concerned about flogging the Extended Warrantry as there is a nice bit of comision in those little bunnies. And they have learnt all they know about the 2 very differant ttype of TVs for their Team Leader who in turn lernt it from his Team Leader etc etc and still to this Day spout utter tosh about Re-gassing Plasmas and shorter Life for a Plasma over a LCD etc etc.
Where as If you go into any respectible AV shop around the Country and give them your demands and needs in you screen, lets say above 37"" and must be good with DVD/BD and Sport, I bet 99% recomend Plasma.
IMHO Plasma TVs are here for the forseeible future, as more and more of us are getting bigger TVs with the advent of HD broadcasts and BD Movies, and for My eyes LCD's just dont compare in overall picture enjoyment to a Plasma.
professorhat
Well-known member
Bit harsh and generalist, DJ and I think you missed the point really. In the original post Lewis was a bit miffed Pioneer weren't making plasmas in less than 50" size and we were pointing out that the general public (in the majority sense) do take a dim view of LCDs, mostly because of what a friend told them, rather than bad selling tactics by anyone in Dixons / Comet etc. If you read through a few forum posts, you'll see it actually takes quite a lot to convince people that plasma is a good technology and most of their concerns are myths and some people still won't believe it and choose to go for a LCD TV "just to be safe".
And this is the reason Pioneer don't make plasmas under 50" any more as it's just proven not to be commercially viable for them - it doesn't matter if plasma is a superior technology, if you're not making any money out of it, you have to switch or go under.
And this is the reason Pioneer don't make plasmas under 50" any more as it's just proven not to be commercially viable for them - it doesn't matter if plasma is a superior technology, if you're not making any money out of it, you have to switch or go under.
The other problem is that more companies are investing in LCD. ÿLCD will soon get pretty close or perhaps even exceed plasma picture quality once they start using LED backlights more and more. ÿIt helps solves the blackness and to a large extent the motion issues. ÿWho knows how much better plasma tvs could have been if the same amount of money was being invested in this technology (which is actually the newer technology contrary to common belief).
ÿ
LCD always had an advantage in the sense that Plasma was never really suitable for monitors - which is a big chunk of the display market. ÿLCD had lots of scale just because of that and caught up really quickly with Plasma despite entering the TV market later. ÿ
ÿ
Also, plasma's got off to a very bad start - a lot of the first generation plasmas were not good at all and had many reliability problems which tainted the image. ÿLCD, while poor in many ways, didn't have the reliability problem. ÿEven though things have drastically changed - preconceptions are difficult to change.ÿ
ÿ
The future for the Plasma TV industry is very bleak indeed. ÿBy 2010 Sharp and Sony/Samsung will be into full production of their 10G panel manufacturing facilities and this is where you will see a much higher supply of large LCDs ranging from 52" all the way up to and beyond 70". ÿThats right, 60"+ LCD TVs will become mainstream in only a few years. ÿAt that point in time, Plasma will be dead.ÿ
ÿ
LCD always had an advantage in the sense that Plasma was never really suitable for monitors - which is a big chunk of the display market. ÿLCD had lots of scale just because of that and caught up really quickly with Plasma despite entering the TV market later. ÿ
ÿ
Also, plasma's got off to a very bad start - a lot of the first generation plasmas were not good at all and had many reliability problems which tainted the image. ÿLCD, while poor in many ways, didn't have the reliability problem. ÿEven though things have drastically changed - preconceptions are difficult to change.ÿ
ÿ
The future for the Plasma TV industry is very bleak indeed. ÿBy 2010 Sharp and Sony/Samsung will be into full production of their 10G panel manufacturing facilities and this is where you will see a much higher supply of large LCDs ranging from 52" all the way up to and beyond 70". ÿThats right, 60"+ LCD TVs will become mainstream in only a few years. ÿAt that point in time, Plasma will be dead.ÿ
I have to add at this point, that I bought 2 LCD screens 37 and 40, because I prefer the picture.
Not everyone prefers Plasma.
Not everyone prefers Plasma.
professorhat
Well-known member
True enough, and we should probably wait until we actually see a Pioneer 42" LCD TV before we lament the passing of their plasma sets. They might be incredible!
D.J.KRIME:
Lewis P:Very true, that. I am a television salesman and there is definately bias among the general public toward LCD technology.Where do you work Dixons???
There are 2 main factors behind why LCD out sell Plasma and they are Firstly that screen sizes below 37"" are only avalible as a LCD and no Plasma alternative, so seeing as 32"" is the most popular screen size accross the board in the UK that wolud help LCD's market share along with smaller sets for Bedrooms etc. Just because more LCD units are sold it does not make it a better product.
Now My Dixons question was not ment to be a POP at you Lewis as I am sure you know your Onions, But the fact remains that the vast majority of the Sales team in Places like Dixons, Comet etc have very little TRUE product knowledge and simply just spout Spec figures ETC and are more concerned about flogging the Extended Warrantry as there is a nice bit of comision in those little bunnies. And they have learnt all they know about the 2 very differant ttype of TVs for their Team Leader who in turn lernt it from his Team Leader etc etc and still to this Day spout utter tosh about Re-gassing Plasmas and shorter Life for a Plasma over a LCD etc etc.
Where as If you go into any respectible AV shop around the Country and give them your demands and needs in you screen, lets say above 37"" and must be good with DVD/BD and Sport, I bet 99% recomend Plasma.
IMHO Plasma TVs are here for the forseeible future, as more and more of us are getting bigger TVs with the advent of HD broadcasts and BD Movies, and for My eyes LCD's just dont compare in overall picture enjoyment to a Plasma.
Yes, I do work at currys, part of the dixons stores group, and the general concensus is that sales colleagues receive comission on products. This is untrue. True however that payment is received for selling product support, though only £1 for each agreement. It is also perceived by many that sales staff receive little or no formal training and as a result give false information, just to make a sale. True in some instances, but the training for staff actually comes from the manufacturers themselves. Representatives from each manufacturer visit the stores to educate staff about their products. This normally happens when a new range of products is released.
I do recommend plasma technology, and I also favour plasma technology. Most of you will have noticed this, as I started the post. In response to what Andrew Everard wrote, "plasma" is a generic term, because this was the first available technology to be offered in the larger screen sizes, associated with flat televisions. LCDs arrived later in larger sizes and not all of the public have caught up. The reasons why most people prefer LCDs are because they are generally brighter, and therefore more attention grabbing. Customers are familiar with pixels and you generally get more pixels for your money in an LCD screen. Also, the pixels in LCDs appear less visible than the individual cells found in plasmas and there is less reflection. Strangely one of the first things many customers will do is view the panel from six inches away and compare the pixels. For these reasons, they are more popular.
Most customers are aware of screen burn, and it is common for them to think that plasma panels require frequent maintenance, including "refilling the gas". I have no idea where this widespread myth came from. People generally cannot see the difference in black level, and motion blur. Instead they focus on "white levels". LCD screens can display brilliant white, due to their backlight, and Plasmas dont do it so well. Despite my trying to convince the customer otherwise, most of them will buy an LCD television, because they think they are being lied to by the sales team who are apparently hungry for commission and customers seem frankly scared of plasmas. The most sales are of the Korean giants Samsung and LG.
If you have a sales person who simply reads the ticket out, they probably work in white goods, and have been drafted in to cope with busy periods and keep customer waiting times down. It gives customers the impression that there are people serving them. If this happens to you, its best to wait until a dedicated television salesperson becomes available. If you are in the market for a new telly, the biggest discounts are on Korean products (particualrly samsung), as they carry most margin. You are unlikely to get a huge reduction on a pioneer or a sony. There may be some leeway on Panasonic products, but it varies. For example, cost price on a Samsung LE42Q96BDX was £550, and for a Samsung LE37R88BDX, £432. Both are now discontinued, but were being sold recently for £699 and £599 inc VAT respectively. It is best not to buy a product as soon as it comes out, as prices are likely to drop. I cant tell you about anything current line, else I'll get the sack.
Lewis P:Very true, that. I am a television salesman and there is definately bias among the general public toward LCD technology.Where do you work Dixons???
There are 2 main factors behind why LCD out sell Plasma and they are Firstly that screen sizes below 37"" are only avalible as a LCD and no Plasma alternative, so seeing as 32"" is the most popular screen size accross the board in the UK that wolud help LCD's market share along with smaller sets for Bedrooms etc. Just because more LCD units are sold it does not make it a better product.
Now My Dixons question was not ment to be a POP at you Lewis as I am sure you know your Onions, But the fact remains that the vast majority of the Sales team in Places like Dixons, Comet etc have very little TRUE product knowledge and simply just spout Spec figures ETC and are more concerned about flogging the Extended Warrantry as there is a nice bit of comision in those little bunnies. And they have learnt all they know about the 2 very differant ttype of TVs for their Team Leader who in turn lernt it from his Team Leader etc etc and still to this Day spout utter tosh about Re-gassing Plasmas and shorter Life for a Plasma over a LCD etc etc.
Where as If you go into any respectible AV shop around the Country and give them your demands and needs in you screen, lets say above 37"" and must be good with DVD/BD and Sport, I bet 99% recomend Plasma.
IMHO Plasma TVs are here for the forseeible future, as more and more of us are getting bigger TVs with the advent of HD broadcasts and BD Movies, and for My eyes LCD's just dont compare in overall picture enjoyment to a Plasma.
Yes, I do work at currys, part of the dixons stores group, and the general concensus is that sales colleagues receive comission on products. This is untrue. True however that payment is received for selling product support, though only £1 for each agreement. It is also perceived by many that sales staff receive little or no formal training and as a result give false information, just to make a sale. True in some instances, but the training for staff actually comes from the manufacturers themselves. Representatives from each manufacturer visit the stores to educate staff about their products. This normally happens when a new range of products is released.
I do recommend plasma technology, and I also favour plasma technology. Most of you will have noticed this, as I started the post. In response to what Andrew Everard wrote, "plasma" is a generic term, because this was the first available technology to be offered in the larger screen sizes, associated with flat televisions. LCDs arrived later in larger sizes and not all of the public have caught up. The reasons why most people prefer LCDs are because they are generally brighter, and therefore more attention grabbing. Customers are familiar with pixels and you generally get more pixels for your money in an LCD screen. Also, the pixels in LCDs appear less visible than the individual cells found in plasmas and there is less reflection. Strangely one of the first things many customers will do is view the panel from six inches away and compare the pixels. For these reasons, they are more popular.
Most customers are aware of screen burn, and it is common for them to think that plasma panels require frequent maintenance, including "refilling the gas". I have no idea where this widespread myth came from. People generally cannot see the difference in black level, and motion blur. Instead they focus on "white levels". LCD screens can display brilliant white, due to their backlight, and Plasmas dont do it so well. Despite my trying to convince the customer otherwise, most of them will buy an LCD television, because they think they are being lied to by the sales team who are apparently hungry for commission and customers seem frankly scared of plasmas. The most sales are of the Korean giants Samsung and LG.
If you have a sales person who simply reads the ticket out, they probably work in white goods, and have been drafted in to cope with busy periods and keep customer waiting times down. It gives customers the impression that there are people serving them. If this happens to you, its best to wait until a dedicated television salesperson becomes available. If you are in the market for a new telly, the biggest discounts are on Korean products (particualrly samsung), as they carry most margin. You are unlikely to get a huge reduction on a pioneer or a sony. There may be some leeway on Panasonic products, but it varies. For example, cost price on a Samsung LE42Q96BDX was £550, and for a Samsung LE37R88BDX, £432. Both are now discontinued, but were being sold recently for £699 and £599 inc VAT respectively. It is best not to buy a product as soon as it comes out, as prices are likely to drop. I cant tell you about anything current line, else I'll get the sack.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Lewis P:........ there is definately bias among the general public toward LCD technology.This seems to be because LCD TV's are all customers seem to see when they walk through the likes of Dixons/Currys/Comet etc. Row upon row of LCD's, with the occassional plasma in between. I've lost count of how many people have visited our store looking at flat screens who say they've been recommended LCD by the above stores. I've heard a couple of stories as to why this is, one involving the government, but I suppose we'll never know why.
As for these staff being trained, we still get people coming in who've been told by the above companies staff that plasmas need re-gassing and that they suffer badly with screen burn. Of course, after laughing, we set the customer straight. But as far as the general public are concerned, many who have heard this sort of story from such a huge retailer take it as gospel, regardless of what a specialist retailer says. Annoying.
And everyone has seen the sales figures for extended warranties for places like Dixons......they turn over more in these than actual product.
As for these staff being trained, we still get people coming in who've been told by the above companies staff that plasmas need re-gassing and that they suffer badly with screen burn. Of course, after laughing, we set the customer straight. But as far as the general public are concerned, many who have heard this sort of story from such a huge retailer take it as gospel, regardless of what a specialist retailer says. Annoying.
And everyone has seen the sales figures for extended warranties for places like Dixons......they turn over more in these than actual product.
Cofnchtr
Well-known member
Hi,
It's a pity more people don't do their own research when buying a product. They'd learn more and be better armed if they read magazines such as WHFS&V, who have informed unbiased reports to refer to and ultimately the buyer could make a more informed decision for themselves.
Some of the 'training' must go in one ear and out the other. Many a time I've been in one of the 'big' retailers and overheard the same sales pitch abotu plasma, screen burn, regassing, LCD longer life, 1080 is a must etc.
Cheers,
Cofnchtr.
It's a pity more people don't do their own research when buying a product. They'd learn more and be better armed if they read magazines such as WHFS&V, who have informed unbiased reports to refer to and ultimately the buyer could make a more informed decision for themselves.
Some of the 'training' must go in one ear and out the other. Many a time I've been in one of the 'big' retailers and overheard the same sales pitch abotu plasma, screen burn, regassing, LCD longer life, 1080 is a must etc.
Cheers,
Cofnchtr.
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