Weird that so many audiophile threads are argumentative

[Jasonovich]

Placebo & confirmation bias has always been accepted by the scientific community, without them many sciences could not be tested in the real world. (If you have taken any type of medicinal drug, they will have been tested for the placebo effect)

Bill

It's a fair point Bill but I do feel it has been elasticated to suit a particular narrative.

The Placebo Effect derives from the field of medical diagnosis, it provides a biopsychosocial perspective of placebo effect on musculoskeletal pain in rehabilitation. The methodology is specific to patients in relation to their Physical Healing, not Hearing!

I accept it has its validity and purpose in the arena of medical science but how is this relevant in sphere of HiFi?

 

[Revolutions]

It's a fair point Bill but I do feel it has been elasticated to suit a particular narrative.

The Placebo Effect derives from the field of medical diagnosis, it provides a biopsychosocial perspective of placebo effect on musculoskeletal pain in rehabilitation. The methodology is specific to patients in relation to their Physical Healing, not Hearing!

I accept it has its validity and purpose in the arena of medical science but how is this relevant in sphere of HiFi?

Just to be a pedant... pain is the result of sensory inputs constructed in the brain. Just like hearing is the result of sensory inputs constructed in the brain. It's the same process, both involving the brain, which is entirely fallible.

The placebo effect isn't actually a scientifically valid phenomenon. In Behavioural Science the closest rigorously tested Heuristic is the Observer-Expectancy Effect: ie, if an observer in an experiment believes a certain outcome is likely, their behaviour will change & influence the outcomes of the people being observed. The Observer-Expectancy Effect is classified as a type of Confirmation Bias.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

The placebo effect isn't actually a scientifically valid phenomenon.

It's bee subject to Cochrane review, which says that the scientific community has done enough work on it for a meta analysis to be done.

Cochrane (organisation) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jasonovich]

Just to be a pedant... pain is the result of sensory inputs constructed in the brain. Just like hearing is the result of sensory inputs constructed in the brain. It's the same process, both involving the brain, which is entirely fallible.

The placebo effect isn't actually a scientifically valid phenomenon. In Behavioural Science the closest rigorously tested Heuristic is the Observer-Expectancy Effect: ie, if an observer in an experiment believes a certain outcome is likely, their behaviour will change & influence the outcomes of the people being observed. The Observer-Expectancy Effect is classified as a type of Confirmation Bias.

You learn something every day Matt
It's good we can share. I only wish cable debates had the same humility!

Still, and forgive me, I'm being mischievous! It is a medical doctrine and we are making assumption that hearing and pain have the same tolerance threshold and the same prognosis?

I'm not saying there isn't any weird things going inside the brain when we listen to music. It's so easy to irk someone with conflicting opinions but it's also a process to gain knowledge

 

[Dave_]

Feel the need to post this again....

View: https://youtu.be/FRfnag9nAso?si=zJmG_lqwetoB4PSN

 

[Gray]

Feel the need to post this again....

View: https://youtu.be/FRfnag9nAso?si=zJmG_lqwetoB4PSN

I like that bloke.
He's got a 'contempt' for the audience (e.g. the way he ridiculously drags out some jokes) that I find hilarious.

 

[Revolutions]

It's bee subject to Cochrane review, which says that the scientific community has done enough work on it for a meta analysis to be done.

Cochrane (organisation) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I thought the Cochrane review concluded that there were no significant health benefits from placebos.

Although, I don't know much about medicine. I was talking from a psychological perspective - when we believe something it can change our preferences. Whether that belief can override physical pain barriers etc, probably would take some serious mental focus.

You learn something every day Matt
It's good we can share. I only wish cable debates had the same humility!

Still, and forgive me, I'm being mischievous! It is a medical doctrine and we are making assumption that hearing and pain have the same tolerance threshold and the same prognosis?

I'm not saying there isn't any weird things going inside the brain when we listen to music. It's so easy to irk someone with conflicting opinions but it's also a process to gain knowledge

I was referring to the mechanics the brain processes, rather than any physiological response. Our brain makes approximately 1 billion decisions each second based on sensory inputs, both conscious & subconscious. It's running our heart & breathing, as well as triggering pain, telling us what we're seeing/hearing, predicting what's about to happen & triggering movement, and it's giving us thoughts.

To compute all of these things logically would cause overload & we'd not be able to react in time. And it would use up far too much energy. To save us from that, our brains use pattern recognition as shortcuts. And that's where heuristics, or biases, come from. So our brains are being lazy - agreeing with core beliefs is one way it can save energy. So if you believe something, basically you're more likely to experience it whether its real or not. Just so your brain doesn't have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of realising its wrong.

Add in the complexity that our expectations are formed by our history, it means that every single one of use has a completely unique view that will never be replicated by anyone else. Thus forming the basis of subjectivity & why we will interpret different sounds, colours, experiences, and pain etc... differently from each other. If that makes any sense, and I've not Mattsplained you too much 🙂

 

[JDL]

The main issue in consumer hifi is that measurements tell us we shouldnt hear differences with cables. The science is pretty difinitive on that. And people continue to claim they do. It's actually the same for CD players and DACs too and getting that way for amps (ignoring power differences).

People who claim there are differences tend to soley us subjective listening comparisons, often with significant time periods in between. Also proper volume matching is rarely done.

So yes, when you have a situation like that there will be arguments. Lots of them.

Without meaning to be argumentative, there are without any doubt differences in sound between various CD players.
If they all used exactly the same components and architecture, then of course there would be no differences.
However that, as I'm sure we're all aware is not the case, therefore differences most certainly do exist in the sound quality that ends up bouncing off our eardrums.
In my opinion to say otherwise is not sensible reasoning.
I could go into more detail, to illustrate my point, but I'll spare you.

 

[Jasonovich]

I thought the Cochrane review concluded that there were no significant health benefits from placebos.

Although, I don't know much about medicine. I was talking from a psychological perspective - when we believe something it can change our preferences. Whether that belief can override physical pain barriers etc, probably would take some serious mental focus.



I was referring to the mechanics the brain processes, rather than any physiological response. Our brain makes approximately 1 billion decisions each second based on sensory inputs, both conscious & subconscious. It's running our heart & breathing, as well as triggering pain, telling us what we're seeing/hearing, predicting what's about to happen & triggering movement, and it's giving us thoughts.

To compute all of these things logically would cause overload & we'd not be able to react in time. And it would use up far too much energy. To save us from that, our brains use pattern recognition as shortcuts. And that's where heuristics, or biases, come from. So our brains are being lazy - agreeing with core beliefs is one way it can save energy. So if you believe something, basically you're more likely to experience it whether its real or not. Just so your brain doesn't have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of realising its wrong.

Add in the complexity that our expectations are formed by our history, it means that every single one of use has a completely unique view that will never be replicated by anyone else. Thus forming the basis of subjectivity & why we will interpret different sounds, colours, experiences, and pain etc... differently from each other. If that makes any sense, and I've not Mattsplained you too much 🙂

The Mattsplaing is pretty cool!This is amazing stuff. I'm genuinely taken back, I assume this knowledge is from your professional calling or scholastic training? 😷

 

[Fandango Andy]

Weird that so many audiophile threads are argumentative​

No they aren't! 😉

 

[plastic penguin]

No they aren't! 😉

Oh yes they are (oops, panto season is over) 🙂

 

[DougM]

As per the title, why?

I’m a member of other male dominated forums including, musicians forums, RC (radio control ), astronomy, cycling and model engineering, (yes I have too many hobbies) and there is barely a murmur of discord.

People seem so defensive of their choice of HiFi and it seems to be getting worse.

Come on people, it shouldn’t be like this.

I'm guessing in RC forums, you don't get a lot of debate over whether or not your drone flies faster with the bearings in the fans replaced with solid gold bars. But in hifi forums, you get people claiming exactly the equivalent is improving their listening experience.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I thought the Cochrane review concluded that there were no significant health benefits from placebos.

I haven't read it, though there's a great deal on the subject in Trick or Treatment, by Ernst & Singh, which looks at alternative medicine. The effect is real is their conclusion, as there's nothing significant in any of the therapies. Ditto the effect of a caring doctor as opposed to one who can barely give you the time of day - even if the treatment is identical.

The book's worth a bash:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Trick-Treatment-Alternative-Medicine-Trial-ebook/dp/B0031RS290/ref=sr_1_1?crid=Z4IYF3BAXCMT&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.p64WnHGbgzmp4_Z9ZHWu_IVPjyHQvUjGw8D8y9DdUQdofGPHG1EkZBHVOGd9bCoGCg2ccgVSerL39ISal5qjfeJnW2muGlwlKqHTrdhOTKi28pdR78qcfonnA9ptYEdBuFphMs02ZpAYnuwdICRcNDHvjIWotbGqOD8hniYJQHzzFAkB1Whcf9daMhSyDp8MWIPcopPmXscQoIeFcO-r1ClyVWCdUo1IfGDytjt70NI.An7O75lHjDOGNNQavry91tJMeajJl_UaUocZgdYlyig&dib_tag=se&keywords=trick+or+treatment&qid=1738143853&sprefix=trick+or+treatment%2Caps%2C123&sr=8-1

 

[twinkletoes]

I haven't read it, though there's a great deal on the subject in Trick or Treatment, by Ernst & Singh, which looks at alternative medicine. The effect is real is their conclusion, as there's nothing significant in any of the therapies. Ditto the effect of a caring doctor as opposed to one who can barely give you the time of day - even if the treatment is identical.

The book's worth a bash:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Trick-Treatment-Alternative-Medicine-Trial-ebook/dp/B0031RS290/ref=sr_1_1?crid=Z4IYF3BAXCMT&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.p64WnHGbgzmp4_Z9ZHWu_IVPjyHQvUjGw8D8y9DdUQdofGPHG1EkZBHVOGd9bCoGCg2ccgVSerL39ISal5qjfeJnW2muGlwlKqHTrdhOTKi28pdR78qcfonnA9ptYEdBuFphMs02ZpAYnuwdICRcNDHvjIWotbGqOD8hniYJQHzzFAkB1Whcf9daMhSyDp8MWIPcopPmXscQoIeFcO-r1ClyVWCdUo1IfGDytjt70NI.An7O75lHjDOGNNQavry91tJMeajJl_UaUocZgdYlyig&dib_tag=se&keywords=trick+or+treatment&qid=1738143853&sprefix=trick+or+treatment%2Caps%2C123&sr=8-1

There are products out there that put it into practice, Air up bottle is the most well known. Fools the brain into thinking it tasting a flavour when its not.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I don't think it's in the book I mention, but one I have discusses studies that show that even when people are told they're being given a placebo, the effect is still statistically significant in comparison with being given nothing - even though they know it cannot make a difference.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

CD uses PCM, SACD uses DSD, so if there wasn't a difference there would be something wrong with your system. (Don't compare Apples & Oranges)

Bill

"If there wasn't a difference there would be something wrong with your system"

What do you mean by that? If there wasn't a difference?

 

[nopiano]

I don't think it's in the book I mention, but one I have discusses studies that show that even when people are told they're being given a placebo, the effect is still statistically significant in comparison with being given nothing - even though they know it cannot make a difference.

Yes, I remember that when that was getting quite a bit of publicity. I reminds me of my long held belief that merely speaking to a doctor, or even a knowledgeable friend or relative, can be reassuring about a medical condition.

And that is why quite a number of people in this group post questions, for reassurance. They trust a person here more than a dealer in some cases because they feel one has an axe to grind when forum members might not.

This is an interesting hobby because there’s such a range of possible interpretations of what we hear, from highly technical to wholly subjective, and everything in between.

 

[Friesiansam]

I reminds me of my long held belief that merely speaking to a doctor, or even a knowledgeable friend or relative, can be reassuring about a medical condition.

As long as the doctor doesn't tell you "you might want to advise your family to start thinking about arrangements for your funeral..."

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

As long as the doctor doesn't tell you "you might want to advise your family to start thinking about arrangements for your funeral..."

Or second best to that, which is 'Hmm...........that's interesting...'

 

[Jasonovich]

Or second best to that, which is 'Hmm...........that's interesting...'

Oh I hate it when the GP's do that.
You probe and the GP's response...
Oh it isn't anything you should worry about?
Come back in 6 months, so we can be sure.

 

[nopiano]

As long as the doctor doesn't tell you "you might want to advise your family to start thinking about arrangements for your funeral..."

Or, “here’s a leaflet about assisted dying, not that you aren’t looking ok right now…”

😱😉

 

[Roog]

I'm guessing in RC forums, you don't get a lot of debate over whether or not your drone flies faster with the bearings in the fans replaced with solid gold bars. But in hifi forums, you get people claiming exactly the equivalent is improving their listening experience.

I do see debate in other hobbyist forums and just like HiFi money influences peoples equipment selection and yet in my experience they are much more likely to have a supportive and healthy debate.

I wonder if its because there is significant skill on the part of the participant in taking part and honing skills in these groups, especially for musicians, and model engineers and that it is not all about the gear, just partly!

Probably the most amazing example I came across was a chap responding to my beginners question on 'how do i do this?', he grabbed an offcut of metal from his stock, set it up in his machines, performed the various machining steps he was proposing, photographed each step and documented each stage, all done that afternoon and posted on the forum, amazing commitment. Not a condescending word uttered about my lack of experience/knowledge.

 

[RoA]

Yes, Hifi forums can get pretty anal. I guess the importance to convince one selves that the often not inconsiderable outlay was as justified as any existential need and then to convince others that this acquisition really is essential and the only way to hear music in it's intended way must be overwhelming.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I do see debate in other hobbyist forums and just like HiFi money influences peoples equipment selection and yet in my experience they are much more likely to have a supportive and healthy debate.

Can't help but feel that some people who've spent a tidy wedge feel that this makes their opinions somehow 'better'. Not an attitude I care for - like posting videos of your kit in action for the hoi polloi to swoon over...

 

[Deliriumbassist]

The biggest problem is that people think that their use case is THE use case. One of the best pieces of advice I was given when I was in hifi retail was 'we aren't paid for our opinions - we are paid for our experience.' Many people confuse the two.