Vinyl sales much ado about nothing?

[drummerman]

Things are going back to the days before CDs when people listened to crap LPs on crap sound systems.

Nowadays, people can listen to records on better quality systems

Yes. Times when people listened to harsh solid state amplifiers through bloaty, soft sounding speakers using equally soft and warm sounding turntables are behind.

Although you can still achieve the above today if that tickles your fancy (although it is probably difficult to find truly harsh/high distortion solid state amplifiers) we now have much better electronics.

As for turntables, things are perhaps a little less clear cut. They have generally evolved, providing better platforms and motors/arms. At the budget end, there are still compromises, naturally, but people like Ortofon, to name one, have made progress and are offering very decent MM cartridges at affordable prices which can elevate even a modest table to a highly acceptable, musical reproducers which can provide great listening enjoyment to even seasoned hifi'ers which have not dabbled with with the format yet.

One such listener is my brother which lives in Switzerland. He not long ago purchased at Project Carbon and absolutely loves it. He now regularely purchases records.

Vinyl forever.

 

[andyjm]

To quote a much used expression, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

if I sold one record last year, and two this year I could accurately write that 'record sales soar, up 100% in only one year'. Vinyl was a negligible part of music sales, and following a significant percentage increase in sales over the last year is still a negligible part of music sales.

The remarkable thing about vinyl is that it is still sold at all. Given the clear technical superiority of CDs, it is a poor reflection on the music industry that music that has been mangled through the vinyl recording process sounds better than music that has been mangled by the current fad for compressing the life out of popular music releases on CD.

it is very telling that in the classical music field where CDs are mixed and produced to good technical standards, vinyl has failed to make any inroads.

 

[The_Lhc]

To quote a much used expression, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

if I sold one record last year, and two this year I could accurately write that 'record sales soar, up 100% in only one year'. Vinyl was a negligible part of music sales, and following a significant percentage increase in sales over the last year is still a negligible part of music sales.

And then there's spin and that's a damnable piece of spin right there, suggesting that vinyl sales have only increased in the last year, whereas in fact vinyl has been having significant percentage increases in sales for about the last ten years.

It's true that in overall terms vinyl is still a small percentage of total sales bit given the major labels are all getting involved with it they clearly think there's money to be made which is probably the only real measure of its success, business men are interested in getting involved.

 

[Covenanter]

To quote a much used expression, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

if I sold one record last year, and two this year I could accurately write that 'record sales soar, up 100% in only one year'. Vinyl was a negligible part of music sales, and following a significant percentage increase in sales over the last year is still a negligible part of music sales.

The remarkable thing about vinyl is that it is still sold at all. Given the clear technical superiority of CDs, it is a poor reflection on the music industry that music that has been mangled through the vinyl recording process sounds better than music that has been mangled by the current fad for compressing the life out of popular music releases on CD.

it is very telling that in the classical music field where CDs are mixed and produced to good technical standards, vinyl has failed to make any inroads.

+1

Chris

 

[Al ears]

To quote a much used expression, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

if I sold one record last year, and two this year I could accurately write that 'record sales soar, up 100% in only one year'. Vinyl was a negligible part of music sales, and following a significant percentage increase in sales over the last year is still a negligible part of music sales.

The remarkable thing about vinyl is that it is still sold at all. Given the clear technical superiority of CDs, it is a poor reflection on the music industry that music that has been mangled through the vinyl recording process sounds better than music that has been mangled by the current fad for compressing the life out of popular music releases on CD.

it is very telling that in the classical music field where CDs are mixed and produced to good technical standards, vinyl has failed to make any inroads.

Surely some mistake here sir. In the time of the great slump about the only thing you could find being released on vinyl were Classical recordings. I regularly receive monthly notices of new vinyl being released from the likes of MOV and snvinyl.co.uk and you can be sure that out of lets say 6 LP's at least 2 of them will be of the Classical / Operatic variety.

 

[andyjm]

To quote a much used expression, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

if I sold one record last year, and two this year I could accurately write that 'record sales soar, up 100% in only one year'. Vinyl was a negligible part of music sales, and following a significant percentage increase in sales over the last year is still a negligible part of music sales.

The remarkable thing about vinyl is that it is still sold at all. Given the clear technical superiority of CDs, it is a poor reflection on the music industry that music that has been mangled through the vinyl recording process sounds better than music that has been mangled by the current fad for compressing the life out of popular music releases on CD.

it is very telling that in the classical music field where CDs are mixed and produced to good technical standards, vinyl has failed to make any inroads.

Surely some mistake here sir. In the time of the great slump about the only thing you could find being released on vinyl were Classical recordings. I regularly receive monthly notices of new vinyl being released from the likes of MOV and snvinyl.co.uk and you can be sure that out of lets say 6 LP's at least 2 of them will be of the Classical / Operatic variety.

Depends how you describe 'inroads' I guess. Vinyl is less than 3% of music sales (Wikipedia). I believe that was physical sales and didn't include downloads. Given the amount of music consumption from illegal file sharing, I would guess that puts vinyl at sub 1% of consumed music. If there are benefits to be had by vinyl it is by accessing better quality mixes, and that is in the field of popoular music.

 

[Covenanter]

There are very few classical releases on vinyl although the second hand market is strong. I can't easily post links here (rubbish comment board software) but if you look at www.sinfinimusic.com/uk/features/other-features/whatever-happened-to-classical-vinyl-for-record-store-day there is an interesting article.

Chris

 

[Frank Harvey]

And then there's spin and that's a damnable piece of spin right there, suggesting that vinyl sales have only increased in the last year, whereas in fact vinyl has been having significant percentage increases in sales for about the last ten years.

It's true that in overall terms vinyl is still a small percentage of total sales bit given the major labels are all getting involved with it they clearly think there's money to be made which is probably the only real measure of its success, business men are interested in getting involved.

+1

 

[Frank Harvey]

The remarkable thing about vinyl is that it is still sold at all. Given the clear technical superiority of CDs, it is a poor reflection on the music industry that music that has been mangled through the vinyl recording process sounds better than music that has been mangled by the current fad for compressing the life out of popular music releases on CD.

So why are we getting inferior CD releases? Yes yes yes, it's to do with the mastering, but if studios aren't taking advantage of CDs "technical superiority", then it's a moot point.

 

[andyjm]

So why are we getting inferior CD releases? Yes yes yes, it's to do with the mastering, but if studios aren't taking advantage of CDs "technical superiority", then it's a moot point.

David, the truth is that you, me and all the others who post on this forum are a tiny fraction of the music buying public. Music companies release CDs mixed the way they are because they sell.

I had a faint hope that HiRes might provide a route to better quality mixes - maybe there would be a CD mix of an album and then a HiRes mix available. Not that HiRes in itself brings benefits, just that the record companies may mix HiRes for an audience who prefer more dynamic range.

Unfortunately it looks like Tidal and Pono have run into some headwinds - we shall see I guess.

 

[Frank Harvey]

David, the truth is that you, me and all the others who post on this forum are a tiny fraction of the music buying public.

It is a niche product for a niche market, so it will never be competing for any major share of the market. There are audiophiles buying vinyl, collectors buying vinyl, and the so called "hipsters" buying vinyl. Either way, vinyl has increased in sales since 2007, and will increase again this year. New record companies are springing up, back catalogues are being properly remastered and released (with the majority on 180gm vinyl), and every man and his dog online are jumping on the turntable bandwagon, usually by stocking cheap crap, but stocking turntables nonetheless. This isn't going away - it has outlasted every other physical format that has gone before it, and those that have appeared since, other than CD, so far.

I'm not pro vinyl here, as I have both formats, and probably just as many CDs as vinyl.

 

[EvPa]

it has outlasted every other physical format that has gone before it

I beg to differ, these are still widely used worldwide, everyday:

*smile*

 

[iMark]

David, the truth is that you, me and all the others who post on this forum are a tiny fraction of the music buying public.

It is a niche product for a niche market, so it will never be competing for any major share of the market. There are audiophiles buying vinyl, collectors buying vinyl, and the so called "hipsters" buying vinyl. Either way, vinyl has increased in sales since 2007, and will increase again this year. New record companies are springing up, back catalogues are being properly remastered and released (with the majority on 180gm vinyl), and every man and his dog online are jumping on the turntable bandwagon, usually by stocking cheap crap, but stocking turntables nonetheless. This isn't going away - it has outlasted every other physical format that has gone before it, and those that have appeared since, other than CD, so far.

I'm not pro vinyl here, as I have both formats, and probably just as many CDs as vinyl.

And another myth that's been peddled is the 180g or even 200g record. Basically that is a waste of perfectly good vinyl. A good pressing of a record doesn't have to weigh more than 120g as long as new vinyl is used. But still it is inferior technology to the humble CD because whichever way you look at it, you add distortion between the original recording and the listener.

 

[Frank Harvey]

And another myth that's been peddled is the 180g or even 200g record. Basically that is a waste of perfectly good vinyl. A good pressing of a record doesn't have to weigh more than 120g as long as new vinyl is used. But still it is inferior technology to the humble CD because whichever way you look at it, you add distortion between the original recording and the listener.

Less chance of warping for starters. I'll leave the rest there is this will be another of those circular arguments.

 

[iMark]

There are very few classical releases on vinyl although the second hand market is strong. I can't easily post links here (rubbish comment board software) but if you look at www.sinfinimusic.com/uk/features/other-features/whatever-happened-to-classical-vinyl-for-record-store-day there is an interesting article.

Chris

Here in NL the second hand market isn't strong at all for classical LPs. There are a few retailers that dabble in them, but the of the records varies. Overall it would seem that classical vinyl is in better condition than popular music and of course the pressings were in a completely different league. The records I inherited from my parents from labels like DG, Philips, Decca, CBS Masterworks, Erato, Argo, Telefunken and others are still very playable. But my late father would have loved CDs. I remember very well how annoyed he would be if there was click in new record.

Noise free digital recording and playback is the obvious choice for classical music.

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

And then there's spin and that's a damnable piece of spin right there, suggesting that vinyl sales have only increased in the last year, whereas in fact vinyl has been having significant percentage increases in sales for about the last ten years.

It's true that in overall terms vinyl is still a small percentage of total sales bit given the major labels are all getting involved with it they clearly think there's money to be made which is probably the only real measure of its success, business men are interested in getting involved.

I'd just like to add a point that nobody else seem to have mentioned.

The small, but increasing percentage of total sales is for new records, but what about the huge second hand market? How many millions of records sell every year at Car Boots, Charity Shops, Record Fairs, Market Stalls, and on Ebay, Discogs etc.? I know there's also a reasonable second hand market for CDs, but the values and quantities are not in the same league as vinyl.

 

[BigH]

And then there's spin and that's a damnable piece of spin right there, suggesting that vinyl sales have only increased in the last year, whereas in fact vinyl has been having significant percentage increases in sales for about the last ten years.

It's true that in overall terms vinyl is still a small percentage of total sales bit given the major labels are all getting involved with it they clearly think there's money to be made which is probably the only real measure of its success, business men are interested in getting involved.

I'd just like to add a point that nobody else seem to have mentioned.

The small, but increasing percentage of total sales is for new records, but what about the huge second hand market? How many millions of records sell every year at Car Boots, Charity Shops, Record Fairs, Market Stalls, and on Ebay, Discogs etc.? I know there's also a reasonable second hand market for CDs, but the values and quantities are not in the same league as vinyl.

Not sure that is true, the used cd market is also quite large, mainly online, like sellers on Amazon but also sellers you mentioned for vinyl, in fact more, most of the music fairs/market stalls seem to be cds not vinyl.

 

[BigH]

The remarkable thing about vinyl is that it is still sold at all. Given the clear technical superiority of CDs, it is a poor reflection on the music industry that music that has been mangled through the vinyl recording process sounds better than music that has been mangled by the current fad for compressing the life out of popular music releases on CD.

So why are we getting inferior CD releases? Yes yes yes, it's to do with the mastering, but if studios aren't taking advantage of CDs "technical superiority", then it's a moot point.

Because they think loud cds sell more and most people are not interested in sound quality. Seriously how many people have decent hifi in their homes, must be less than 1% or should that be 0.01%?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Not sure that is true, the used cd market is also quite large, mainly online, like sellers on Amazon but also sellers you mentioned for vinyl, in fact more, most of the music fairs/market stalls seem to be cds not vinyl.

There are so many sellers of used CDs on Amazon because they are selling product that has been sold to the likes of a music Magpie etc - where people are getting rid of their CDs in massive numbers. The price differential between new and used CDs is disproportionate to that of new and used vinyl.

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

I'd just like to add a point that nobody else seem to have mentioned.

The small, but increasing percentage of total sales is for new records, but what about the huge second hand market? How many millions of records sell every year at Car Boots, Charity Shops, Record Fairs, Market Stalls, and on Ebay, Discogs etc.? I know there's also a reasonable second hand market for CDs, but the values and quantities are not in the same league as vinyl.

Not sure that is true, the used cd market is also quite large, mainly online, like sellers on Amazon but also sellers you mentioned for vinyl, in fact more, most of the music fairs/market stalls seem to be cds not vinyl.

There is a decent used market for CDs, but that's because the prices (on the whole) are much cheaper than vinyl, but I still doubt whether it comes close to the quantity of vinyl sales.

It's also the case that when a used record has a few marks, it'll still play perfectly well (with an occasional crackle), but if a CD has some marks, it may not play at all, and a lot of used CDs are scratched and marked.

I do buy CDs at Car Boots and Charity Shops because they're so cheap, but I'd go for vinyl every time if I saw both at the same price, or similar.

 

[BigH]

I'd just like to add a point that nobody else seem to have mentioned.

The small, but increasing percentage of total sales is for new records, but what about the huge second hand market? How many millions of records sell every year at Car Boots, Charity Shops, Record Fairs, Market Stalls, and on Ebay, Discogs etc.? I know there's also a reasonable second hand market for CDs, but the values and quantities are not in the same league as vinyl.

Not sure that is true, the used cd market is also quite large, mainly online, like sellers on Amazon but also sellers you mentioned for vinyl, in fact more, most of the music fairs/market stalls seem to be cds not vinyl.

There is a decent used market for CDs, but that's because the prices (on the whole) are much cheaper than vinyl, but I still doubt whether it comes close to the quantity of vinyl sales.

It's also the case that when a used record has a few marks, it'll still play perfectly well (with an occasional crackle), but if a CD has some marks, it may not play at all, and a lot of used CDs are scratched and marked.

I do buy CDs at Car Boots and Charity Shops because they're so cheap, but I'd go for vinyl every time if I saw both at the same price, or similar.

Really, I bought a load of cds off a well known seller on Amazon, most very cheap, only one would not play on my Marantz cdp but it played on my computer, anyway they sent me another one so it was no problem, cds either play or don't but vinyl even new is not perfect, I got fed up buying new vinyl at end of 70s because of the poor condition, always had scrathes or other problems.

If vinyl is so expensive maybe i should sell most of mine off. How much are 70s rock albums going for?

 

[BigH]

Not sure that is true, the used cd market is also quite large, mainly online, like sellers on Amazon but also sellers you mentioned for vinyl, in fact more, most of the music fairs/market stalls seem to be cds not vinyl.

There are so many sellers of used CDs on Amazon because they are selling product that has been sold to the likes of a music Magpie etc - where people are getting rid of their CDs in massive numbers. The price differential between new and used CDs is disproportionate to that of new and used vinyl.

Your point is?

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

I'd just like to add a point that nobody else seem to have mentioned.

The small, but increasing percentage of total sales is for new records, but what about the huge second hand market? How many millions of records sell every year at Car Boots, Charity Shops, Record Fairs, Market Stalls, and on Ebay, Discogs etc.? I know there's also a reasonable second hand market for CDs, but the values and quantities are not in the same league as vinyl.

Not sure that is true, the used cd market is also quite large, mainly online, like sellers on Amazon but also sellers you mentioned for vinyl, in fact more, most of the music fairs/market stalls seem to be cds not vinyl.

There is a decent used market for CDs, but that's because the prices (on the whole) are much cheaper than vinyl, but I still doubt whether it comes close to the quantity of vinyl sales.

It's also the case that when a used record has a few marks, it'll still play perfectly well (with an occasional crackle), but if a CD has some marks, it may not play at all, and a lot of used CDs are scratched and marked.

I do buy CDs at Car Boots and Charity Shops because they're so cheap, but I'd go for vinyl every time if I saw both at the same price, or similar.

Really, I bought a load of cds off a well known seller on Amazon, most very cheap, only one would not play on my Marantz cdp but it played on my computer, anyway they sent me another one so it was no problem, cds either play or don't but vinyl even new is not perfect, I got fed up buying new vinyl at end of 70s because of the poor condition, always had scrathes or other problems.

If vinyl is so expensive maybe i should sell most of mine off. How much are 70s rock albums going for?

You've missed my main point, which is the reason used CDs still sell is because they are so cheap.

Have a look on Discogs for record values. You'll need to know the exact issue you have to get an accurate value, but you may be surprised at some of the prices.

 

[Waxy]

I am single-handedly holding up vinyl sales in the Bristol area...

She may have a point.

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

I am single-handedly holding up vinyl sales in the Bristol area...

She may have a point.

But you're happy, aren't you?