Vinyl sales much ado about nothing?

[chris_bates1974]

I'm working away at the moment, but as soon as I get home, I'm checking all my newer records for unadvertised cds and download codes!!!

 

[Frank Harvey]

It is unusual for there not to be a sticker showing there is a CD or download code supplied.

 

[The_Lhc]

It is unusual for there not to be a sticker showing there is a CD or download code supplied.

That's usually on the shrink wrap, perhaps an unscrupulous dealer with their own shrinkwrap machine is removing the voucher and then reselling the vinyl?

 

[drummerman]

For me, the issue with vinyl is cost. I love listening to it, but the last albumn I bought (Royal Blood) was a quarter of the vinyl price on CD... Now, if the vinyl included download costs, I would have at least given it more thought, but it didn't... I mainly use my tunrtable for listening to old vinyl from my childhood, or car boot sales etc.

This goes back to what I've said before, that the CD format is more or less worthless now. CDs will initially be £10-15 (no different to a record really), and drop quickly after a short period of time, much like Bluray now.

Many do come with a download code nowadays, and the inclusion of the CD copy is slowly rising.

I don't think CD values are worthless. No more so than vinyl or downloads.

I buy the music, the format it is on is incidental although I do prefer vinyl and cd to downloads.

If something I want costs £10 or £15 I will buy it after shopping around, whatever format it is on bearing the above in mind.

The only thing with cd's is that there are millions in circulation and it is often possible to find s/h or even new bargains. This is more difficult with vinyl, especially taking condition into consideration.

All this High Resolution download marlaky is a bit of a mockery imho. Just as some folks argue (correctly) that some vinyl releases are simply pressed from cd's, much 'High Resolution' music is simply upsampled from the same.

There is software which can help identify such by the way.

As always, choose wisely.

Vinyl forever!

 

[Al ears]

Well said drummerman I quite agree. Buyer beware etc. If you are going to spend your hard-earnt on vinyl or high res downloads then do some research. There are resources available, and I don't mean software, to enable you to make informed choices as to which items to buy. There are sites from which hi-res downloads are exactly that and not upsampled CD's so check them out.

Other publications regularly review vinyl on both musical quality (very subjective this) and pressing quality so read these. Once again knowing exactly where the vinyl was pressed can be a very good guide to the quality of the end product.

I used to be a brash buyer and as such ended up quite often with a real dog of a record but, fortunately, being a bit more cautious in my old age has meant my money is now well spent and I've not had a bad recording for years.

Research is all.

Vinyl for ever!

 

[Covenanter]

You do talk the most absolute nonsense!

Chris

What, so 2.0 and 5.1 mixes don't vary in quality/compression? A record will sound exactly the same on every deck? Vinyl doesn't have a wider frequency range than CDs? And CD is, and always was, perfect?

Just stating that someone talks nonsense on a forum doesn't make it the truth.

It does when the person taks nonsense! I'm perfectly happy that people like vinyl, that's their business. However to pretend that it is anything other than deliberately distorted is to live in a fantasy land. What you get with vinyl is "nice sound" but it isn't hifi.

Chris

 

[Frank Harvey]

I don't think CD values are worthless. No more so than vinyl or downloads.

It does seem that some of the more niche/obscure bands I want to buy, I have to pay about £10-30 for a CD, but in general, there's a huge number of albums that can be had for 1p on amazon, and quite a lot are less than a quid. If they have to reduce them to that sort of price in order to sell them, then they're worthless. Again, generally speaking.

All this High Resolution download marlaky is a bit of a mockery imho. Just as some folks argue (correctly) that some vinyl releases are simply pressed from cd's, much 'High Resolution' music is simply upsampled from the same.

As long as people aren't confusing "pressed from the CD" with "pressed from the digital master". They're quite different things.

 

[Al ears]

You do talk the most absolute nonsense!

Chris

What, so 2.0 and 5.1 mixes don't vary in quality/compression? A record will sound exactly the same on every deck? Vinyl doesn't have a wider frequency range than CDs? And CD is, and always was, perfect?

Just stating that someone talks nonsense on a forum doesn't make it the truth.

It does when the person taks nonsense! I'm perfectly happy that people like vinyl, that's their business. However to pretend that it is anything other than deliberately distorted is to live in a fantasy land. What you get with vinyl is "nice sound" but it isn't hifi.

Chris

Now if this post isn't entirely about instilling conflict then my names Fred Blogs.

If it isn't hifi then you really do need to get your definitions checked out.

I'm away for the next decade.....

 

[manicm]

What you get with vinyl is "nice sound" but it isn't hifi.

Chris

Then you clearly haven't heard enough good turntables, or else you wouldn't spew out such tripe. If a turntable can extract as much audible detail, portray as large a soundscale and have as much slam as a CD player then for all intents and purposes it is hifi, regardless of any such distortion.

Have you recently heard a cheap CD player? I've heard a low end CA one and it is awful.

 

[cheeseboy]

al ears + manicm

I don't think chris is on about that, I think (and he'll correct me if I'm wrong) he's talking about the technical side of things. Technically CD's wipe the floor with vinyl for most measurements, and if that's the case then *maybe* vinyl shouldn't be classed as high fidelity any more, given there are much more technically proficient and superior formats out there.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Then you clearly haven't heard enough good turntables, or else you wouldn't spew out such tripe. If a turntable can extract as much audible detail, portray as large a soundscale and have as much slam as a CD player then for all intents and purposes it is hifi, regardless of any such distortion.

Agreed. Many peoploe heard various vinyl based systems here on Record Store Day, and not a negative word was heard (partly down to the fact that everyone attending on the day likes vinyl, I suppose). I do think that those opposing vinyl haven't heard what a good, modern day turntable is capable of. The usual wow/flutter arguments are really a thing of the past, and a good deck (with a well looked after record) has very little background noise.

I have a track that I put on that I'm used to on CD (Black Crow Hits Shoe Shine City by Rain Tree Crow), and wondered if the vinyl could keep up - I was expecting the vinyl to fall short in a few areas, but it equalled the CD in all areas. I'll happily do that same demo for anyone who asks, and at the same time you can listen to the lack of background noise.

The CD was the original release. I also have the remastered version which can also be used for comparison, but they've messed about with the bass levels - nice in some ways, but a little excessive in others.

 

[The_Lhc]

I buy and listen to vinyl, I also buy CDs which I rip to flac and listen to on Sonos and now and again I download mp3s if no other format is available, I'm about as format agnostic as you can get but still, the best system I've ever heard had a vinyl front end, it was at the Bristol show a few years back in the Wilson benesch room, they were running a pair of enormous panel speakers, with suitably exotic amps and a very expensive looking turntable (I've forgotten the details now). It's the only time I've ever understood the concept of"holographic" sound, the album playing was a live album, and standing in the sweet spot you could hear the shape of the hall from the echoes of the music, it was extraordinary, not least because the album in question was an original Harry Belafonte LP from the 60s. I've never experienced anything like it and if anyone doesn't think that's hi-fi then frankly they have no idea what the term hi-fi means.

 

[iMark]

What you get with vinyl is "nice sound" but it isn't hifi.

Chris

Then you clearly haven't heard enough good turntables, or else you wouldn't spew out such tripe. If a turntable can extract as much audible detail, portray as large a soundscale and have as much slam as a CD player then for all intents and purposes it is hifi, regardless of any such distortion.

Have you recently heard a cheap CD player? I've heard a low end CA one and it is awful.

We can play all sorts of discs on our system. We quite like to play LPs. But when we do comparisons between LPs and digital sources (mainly classical music) there is no way that the LPs sound better than the CDs or SACDs. There is simply too much distortion (noise, rumble, wow and flutter) to compete with digital sources.

Like I said before, everyone seems to have forgotten the history of sound recording. Just because of all the inherent problems and limitations of electromagnetic recording, people started looking for alternatives. Here's an interesting article about the dawn of digital recording.

http://www.aes.org/aeshc/pdf/fine_dawn-of-digital.pdf

The humble LP may sound nice to many people, it's simply not the best way to reproduce recorded sound because it adds distortion. If only record companies and sound engineers would release properly mastered CDs, we wouldn't have the discussions about LPs sounding better than CDs. The funny thing is that the limitations of the medium LP are the advantage when it comes to modern popular music. There is no way that the badly compressed sh*te can be cut to a master so for the LPs different masters are used. And these are different from the CD masters.

 

[Waxy]

Hi-fi evangelists are a queer bunch *wacko*

 

[Al ears]

Hi-fi evangelists are a queer bunch *wacko*

Aren't they just, however, I'd say at least about 50% have some idea what they are talking about which is a great deal more than most of the BS that normally gets spouted on threads such as this. ;-)

 

[FunkyMonkey]

This thread has run away.

I guess all I was trying to say was that the increase in sales does not in and of itself convince me that that is happening due to a new found love amongst the public for hifi quality music.

But if it is, then they are mistaken.

 

[cheeseboy]

This thread has run away.

I guess all I was trying to say was that the increase in sales does not in and of itself convince me that that is happening due to a new found love amongst the public for hifi quality music.

But if it is, then they are mistaken.

agreed. Most of the increase in sales isn't really necessarily the drive for having hifi, it's the drive for having a record player - hipsters love to say they play on vinyl.

 

[manicm]

As long as people aren't confusing "pressed from the CD" with "pressed from the digital master". They're quite different things.

Too true, there is a site ProStudioMasters claiming to obtain the masters directly from the labels. My wife wanted the Fifty Shades soundtrack and this was the only legal way I could obtain it in my country (because of the thuggery of our local major label reps - they're no better than common criminals imo but I digress). It's a 48/24 master and did sound rather good. Limited catalog though.

 

[manicm]

To the OP, I don't think the vinyl resurgence is only due to fashion conscious teenagers. New vinyl prices are pretty steep. The thing is vinyl collectors didn't suddenly disappear with the advent of CD, nor will they disappear with the advent of hires audio. They've always been there and new vinyl releases are just making life easier for them, or casting new light on them. Remember it's not just toys like Crossley being released, Linn, Rega, Rokasan, Project and even the Japanese are still making good turntables. Linn stopped making CD players, and yet their cheapest turntable is nearly as expensive as their midrange streamer. That's a niche, but should still give you something to think about.

 

[iMark]

This thread has run away.

I guess all I was trying to say was that the increase in sales does not in and of itself convince me that that is happening due to a new found love amongst the public for hifi quality music.

But if it is, then they are mistaken.

The hipsters that buy Crosleys to play their expensive LPs have got hearing that's been accustomed to lores mp3. Hence they think that Crosleys are HiFi. I don't think Crosley adheres to the old German DIN 45500 norm for HiFi, dating back to 1966.

 

[cheeseboy]

To the OP, I don't think the vinyl resurgence is only due to fashion conscious teenagers. New vinyl prices are pretty steep. The thing is vinyl collectors didn't suddenly disappear with the advent of CD, nor will they disappear with the advent of hires audio. They've always been there and new vinyl releases are just making life easier for them, or casting new light on them.

I agree, but I'd still hedge my bets on the *increase* in sales because of them. Cost isn't really an issue as these are the same people that will buy a new iphone every year.

This is because I know (and work with) quite a few of them who are very proud to say they listen to vinyl, yet to be honest, don't have great stereos and the few set ups I've seen would probably make most people on here cringe (speakers different heights on top of different bookshelves etc).

obviously all of this is IMHO

 

[iMark]

This is because I know (and work with) quite a few of them who are very proud to say they listen to vinyl, yet to be honest, don't have great stereos and the few set ups I've seen would probably make most people on here cringe (speakers different heights on top of different bookshelves etc).

obviously all of this is IMHO

Things are going back to the days before CDs when people listened to crap LPs on crap sound systems. These hipsters had better invested their money in CD copies of the records and a micro stereo system. That way they could listen to the music and look at the artwork of their gatefold sleeves without damaging the expensive records.

 

[Al ears]

To the OP, I don't think the vinyl resurgence is only due to fashion conscious teenagers. New vinyl prices are pretty steep. The thing is vinyl collectors didn't suddenly disappear with the advent of CD, nor will they disappear with the advent of hires audio. They've always been there and new vinyl releases are just making life easier for them, or casting new light on them. Remember it's not just toys like Crossley being released, Linn, Rega, Rokasan, Project and even the Japanese are still making good turntables. Linn stopped making CD players, and yet their cheapest turntable is nearly as expensive as their midrange streamer. That's a niche, but should still give you something to think about.

You are spot on here, the record buying public did not disappear it is just that the format did. The pick up in sales was directly related to the new labels with wide ranging multi-genre vinyl releases (as opposed to almost purely Classical) brought the 'choice' back, it was simply not there before. It only takes one stone to start a landslide.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Things are going back to the days before CDs when people listened to crap LPs on crap sound systems.

Nowadays, people can listen to records on better quality systems

 

[Frank Harvey]

This is because I know (and work with) quite a few of them who are very proud to say they listen to vinyl, yet to be honest, don't have great stereos and the few set ups I've seen would probably make most people on here cringe (speakers different heights on top of different bookshelves etc).

Although, you don't necessarily need a great system to enjoy music. One of our biggest vinyl customers doesn't have a high end system, nor would you even class it as midrange - he just loves music, and prefers vinyl to CDs, despite owning a large number of CDs as well.