Variable CD Quality

[admin_exported]

So, I put on a CD and enjoy listening to it, good vocals, great clear sound. Then I put on another and it sounds like the bass and top end have been removed and all I'm left with is the mid-range. It spoils the CD to the point where I don't want to listen to it. Is it me? Or do CDs vary greatly in their quality?

And again, how much do they compress 'greatest hits' CDs? I find a lot of them sound pretty sub-standard compared to the original albums?

What's your experience? What do you use as your reference CDs when auditioning kit?

 

[Anonymous]

groberton:

do CDs vary greatly in their quality?

Yes!

 

[plastic penguin]

Oh, the joys of music - the problem is multiplied even more with a better system. that's because they tend, not always, to pick-up crumby recordings. Where the recording is good then.....ENJOY!!

 

[Anonymous]

Dunno how much there is to this, but i was told to buy albums from the country they were produced in, and not just any online shop. The reasoning was that if you buy from the originating country you get cd's made with the original (or as close to) master tape and not a copy of a copy. CD's are not shipped from one producer, but they are made in different factories around the world and they make the cds from what CAN BE less than perfect copies of the master tape.

Again.. not sure how true this is but the guy at my local hi-fi shop said so and showed me two "identical" legal cd's. One was apparently made using the orignal master and one was from a big online shop based in asia somewere. There was a clear difference in quality.

 

[the record spot]

The trick is finding out who did the mastering, rather than the pressing plant where the CD was manufactured. All that does is take the digital code and dump it on a pile of discs.

If you get to know the work of the mastering engineer (there's a few, but guys like Joe Gastwirt, Bernie Grundman, Barry Diament, Greg Calbi, George Marino, Bob Ludwig, etc, etc, are all well known names in the industry), then that can be a good pointer. My own personal favourites are Barry Diament and Joe Gastwirt, although I tend to find that anything with "Mastered by Nimbus" on the inner ring of a CD, or "DADC Austria" are almost as good when it comes to sound quality.

Barry Diament - to pick one example - used to be mastering engineer for Atlantic records; anyone with the first generation CDs of the Led Zeppelin albums (i.e. pre-Jimmy Page/George Marino remasters) will see a line in the booklet crediting Barry for the mastering. If you have Led Zeppelin II first edition (not so rare either if you don't) then put it on and have another listen. The bass on that album is a killer, although I'm led to believe he wasn't working from a first generation tape.

His work with Genesis on some of their albums (although not credited) is legendary - get a hold of the US Atco edition, manufactured in Japan by Sanyo (cat. no: 38102-1) and have a listen. This is my reference disc (or one of them) and it's not hard to see why. Huge soundstage, clarity, depth but also an overall "airiness" to the album that's wholly missing on the more recent 2007 remaster (Nick Davis/Tony Cousins) who pretty much throttled it out of recognisable existence. There's an ongoing furore on the Steve Hoffman forum (another mastering guru to look out for) over that one.

Other discs for me are Joni Mitchell's "Night Ride Home" title track (Joe Gastwirt), Yes' "The Yes Album" first edition on Atlantic (Barry Diament) - the track Starship Trooper in particular is astonishingly good. And so on and so forth.

For more recent releases, well, it's all very hit or miss. A recent hit though was the new Julie Feeney album "Pages" on which someone's made a pretty decent job of it, very articulate with the recording and really captures her voice and the strings well. Musically, it's very powerful I thought; reminds me of Julee Cruise, Lennon and McCartney, some strong songs and inventive arrangements. There's my recommendation for the day!

Not sure how much of that helps you/anyone, but I've found that the (rather enjoyable) background reading into this subject has made a big difference in how I go about obtaining the music I listen to.

 

[Anonymous]

Very good point!

My point was that the producer of the discs also matters due to the stuff i mentioned plus the quality of the discs used and the equipment to do so. Up until he told me, I was sure that all cd's from one band was made in one factory but that is not the case I was told.

I am higly annoyed that some bands apparently dont care about the quality of the work they put out. One example of that is one of my favorite bands The Offspring. Some, or even most of their albums sounds like they were made in one take in a crappy studio with producers/mastering guys and whatnot that havent given a damn. Urinates me off!

 

[the record spot]

Yep, fair point. Apologies too incidentally, didn't mean to sound as if I was disparaging your comment.

To be fair, I doubt some of those bands realise how bad some of their discs sound until the whatsit hits the fan. Alex Lifeson, the Rush guitarist, admitted a couple of years back that the band's last but one album "Vapor Trails" had been mixed "too hot". It sounds good on first listen, but when your ears get tuned in to what to listen for and what to avoid, this disc gets tiring - rarely listen to it any more, though the songs themselves are pretty good.

I've since scored most, if not all, of the albums from the period of the band I like (1973-1984) on pre-remaster and they sound good (although I accept not everyone feels the same way about Rush!).

But in general yeah, it's pretty crappy that we're fed poorly done discs, really dispiriting way to treat music...

 

[Anonymous]

Would be nice if the bands would just sell you the albums as downloads from their own, or the labels site in lossless quality so you could burn them (or just keep them on the pc). If the quality was still junk you could whine to the source of the crappy recording/producing/mixing 🙂 Not hard to print your own covers either.

 

[Mike_Schmidt]

Joestone I think thats where the music industry is leading offering a higher bit rate and well as error correction when burning. They have had 30 years to get it kinda right and in all actuality in JD's topic he was using older disc's as reference....for the record so do I. I have a lot of 1st pressings on CD from the early 90's etc and its funny to listen to that copy then if your listening to a "Best Of" how much louder and harder it is some of the time.

Future is higher bit rates with no or little compressing. Thats what I hoping for.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for bringing this up as it something that really bugs me. Some albums are clearly really well produced and sonically very clear, but others not so. A good example of the latter is the Killers' Hot Fuss. It's a great album but the production is terrible - it sounds really muffled and the bass is indistinct and I avoid listening to it - except on my MP3 when I am commuting when the sound is flawed anyway for other reasons. Conversely, I only listen to certain albums at home, so I can really enjoy and make the most of the quality of my hi-fi, which could lead to it getting very boring.

As another post says, the greater the quality of your system, the more terribly obvious it is. A friend of mine once made a supposition that maybe some bands expect the majority of their listening audience to not have particularly analytical systems (like many in the 'pop' genre, who expect most their fans to be young) and, therefore, why invest time and money in production that 95% of people won't hear. I wonder if there is any truth in this. If there is, it could get worse as producers may expect people to largely buy music through 250kBps MP3 downloads....

 

[Mike_Schmidt]

Phil I have seen a documentary on the final cuts being played through a car door speaker in the studio to see how it sounds, no bull I seen it with my eyes couldnt believe it then and still dont. Thats why some music is pushed so hard, to be played louder through cheap cheap cheap speakers with the poorest of amplification. It plays so loud it makes it sound almost good!!! LOL

 

[Anonymous]

I bought a cd from a charity shop called "Sound as a Pound" showcasing the Parlophone label. Listening to this compilation shows an extreme example of how to and how not to produce a song. Quality varies from good to poor in one easy album.

A flavour? You can keep most of it Parlophone!

 

[Anonymous]

Could not agree more. The industry wonders why there are so many illegal downloads and indeed why downloads are becoming more popular than buying cd's. Well it's perfectly clear to me. If you produce the cd to a high standard of sound quality then I'm gonna buy the cd. So many are not, equaling the sound of downloads so why wouldnt you buy/steal the downloaded version?

It's very annoying to have good hi-fi gear only to hear a dreadful sounding cd on it...

 

[Anonymous]

the record spot:Alex Lifeson, the Rush guitarist, admitted a couple of years back that the band's last but one album "Vapor Trails" had been mixed "too hot". It sounds good on first listen, but when your ears get tuned in to what to listen for and what to avoid, this disc gets tiring - rarely listen to it any more, though the songs themselves are pretty good.

I accept not everyone feels the same way about Rush!

Top post sir! I'm massive Rush fan. Some tracks from Vapour Trails were remixed for Retrospective 3, although I haven't heard them personally.

Seems like they were just so grateful to be a band after Peart's losses (he lost his only daughter to a car accident, and his wife died a year later of cancer - he says heartbreak. He remarried and subsequently had a daughter just last month) and having to re-learn the drums after a 5 year hiatus, that they chopped and edited jams to make the record without paying much attention to the sound like they always did, although technolgically some of their recordings are fairly limited due to age!

I'm sure Mr Schmidt will concur that Tool CDs including and post Lateralus are superbly mastered.

Remember, some kit is unforgiving too rather than trying to smooth out the 'nastiness'.

 

[Anonymous]

Mike_Schmidt:Thats why some music is pushed so hard, to be played louder through cheap cheap cheap speakers with the poorest of amplification. It plays so loud it makes it sound almost good!!! LOLThe irony is that decent recordings tend to sound better even in the worst systems: e.g. I remember being impressed by Classic FM's pre-launch test broadcasts on a tiny, tinny-sounding mono radio.

 

[basshound]

I have a couple of Q`s

Production is the band and a producer in the studio recording what the band actually play and adding different effects,how high in the mix various instuments are etc. Is this correct?

Please someone explain mastering,if this can have such a drastic effect on the final SQ are the bands/producers not involved in this process? What is the point of musicians/producers spending months in the studio if the final product is not how they intended it?

 

[the record spot]

Here ya go:-

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/mastering.htm

 

[Anonymous]

basshound:I have a couple of Q`s

Production is the band and a producer in the studio recording what the band actually play and adding different effects,how high in the mix various instuments are etc. Is this correct?

Correct, this is the final mix down session where all involved in the recording sessions normally get to listen and have an input.

Please someone explain mastering,if this can have such a drastic effect on the final SQ are the bands/producers not involved in this process? What is the point of musicians/producers spending months in the studio if the final product is not how they intended it?

See "the record spot" link.

I am involved in the mixing/mastering process and totally agree with Barry Diament. Too many mastering sessions push the life out of the music by the over use of dynamic hard/peak limiting.

Most musicians etc. are not involved in this process and only get to hear the results from a pre-release copy of their work!

One, shall remain nameless, band I was mastering for would only use a cheap cd/radio/cassette player for listening to their work.

There is a society whose aim is for better more dynamic sound - see here: http://dynamicrange.de/

 

[Anonymous]

All interesting stuff! I want to buy Dire Straits Alchemy remaster
1996. On Amazon it is just under 15 quid incl del. Other sellers on the
site have it just over 8 quid new and delivered

Normally
Amazon main sellers compete well....why not in this case???? Is the 8
quid disc going to be inferior? Comments would be very welcome. Is
Amazon having a laugh?

Also is the remaster worth buying over the 2007 version which apparently a normal re issue?

Many thanks
Mike

 

[Anonymous]

Dear All,

As a HiFi loony type of many years standing I have to say I am listening as I type to "Papillon" by Editors on Spotify Premium through a Mackie XD2 DAC to my Sennheiser 650s and am finding all this talk of sound quality increasingly irrelevant. Listen to the music!!!

Peace and love.

 

[the record spot]

Nooby:
All interesting stuff! I want to buy Dire Straits Alchemy remaster
1996. On Amazon it is just under 15 quid incl del. Other sellers on the
site have it just over 8 quid new and delivered

Normally
Amazon main sellers compete well....why not in this case???? Is the 8
quid disc going to be inferior? Comments would be very welcome. Is
Amazon having a laugh?

Also is the remaster worth buying over the 2007 version which apparently a normal re issue?

Many thanks
Mike

No idea, prices will vary from seller to seller; I tend to shop round and work out which version I want and try and find that. Is this the original 2CD fatbox (i.e. pre-remastering) that you're referring to?

As an alternative, try asking them for the details on the disc, they should tell you based on that. I had a similar query with an Ebay seller yesterday offering a live Yes album (Yessongs) which I thought was the original fatbox release, when in fact it was the remaster (and which I already have).

 

[Mike_Schmidt]

Hey Graham how does Lateralus sound through those new ATC's!

 

[margetti]

the record spot:The trick is finding out who did the mastering, rather than the pressing plant where the CD was manufactured. All that does is take the digital code and dump it on a pile of discs. If you get to know the work of the mastering engineer (there's a few, but guys like Joe Gastwirt, Bernie Grundman, Barry Diament, Greg Calbi, George Marino, Bob Ludwig, etc, etc, are all well known names in the industry), then that can be a good pointer. My own personal favourites are Barry Diament and Joe Gastwirt, although I tend to find that anything with "Mastered by Nimbus" on the inner ring of a CD, or "DADC Austria" are almost as good when it comes to sound quality. Barry Diament - to pick one example - used to be mastering engineer for Atlantic records; anyone with the first generation CDs of the Led Zeppelin albums (i.e. pre-Jimmy Page/George Marino remasters) will see a line in the booklet crediting Barry for the mastering. If you have Led Zeppelin II first edition (not so rare either if you don't) then put it on and have another listen. The bass on that album is a killer, although I'm led to believe he wasn't working from a first generation tape. His work with Genesis on some of their albums (although not credited) is legendary - get a hold of the US Atco edition, manufactured in Japan by Sanyo (cat. no: 38102-1) and have a listen. This is my reference disc (or one of them) and it's not hard to see why. Huge soundstage, clarity, depth but also an overall "airiness" to the album that's wholly missing on the more recent 2007 remaster (Nick Davis/Tony Cousins) who pretty much throttled it out of recognisable existence. There's an ongoing furore on the Steve Hoffman forum (another mastering guru to look out for) over that one.Other discs for me are Joni Mitchell's "Night Ride Home" title track (Joe Gastwirt), Yes' "The Yes Album" first edition on Atlantic (Barry Diament) - the track Starship Trooper in particular is astonishingly good. And so on and so forth. For more recent releases, well, it's all very hit or miss. A recent hit though was the new Julie Feeney album "Pages" on which someone's made a pretty decent job of it, very articulate with the recording and really captures her voice and the strings well. Musically, it's very powerful I thought; reminds me of Julee Cruise, Lennon and McCartney, some strong songs and inventive arrangements. There's my recommendation for the day! Not sure how much of that helps you/anyone, but I've found that the (rather enjoyable) background reading into this subject has made a big difference in how I go about obtaining the music I listen to.

I've found this very interesting, and have been having a bit of a surf on the back of the comments on this post and the thread in general. On Saturday morning I put a couple of cd's on from Linn and Naim and they sounded fantastic, and if every cd sounded like these I wouldn't be constantly toying with the thought of an upgrade (although upgraditis is part of that particular problem).

Am I correct in concluding that finding a well-engineered/manufactured cd is a case of lots of research, and ensuring the catalog number etc etc is correct? I ask because I was thinking of popping out at lunchtime to buy a couple of cd's to make up for the dreary weather, but I'm guessing it's not going to be that simple!

 

[Anonymous]

Mike_Schmidt:Hey Graham how does Lateralus sound through those new ATC's!

Very, very good (I would guess - I haven't played it yet!). 10,000 days sounds sublime.

 

[the record spot]

margetti:I ask because I was thinking of popping out at lunchtime to buy a couple of cd's to make up for the dreary weather, but I'm guessing it's not going to be that simple!

If only life were so simple...!

Actually, in many cases, it is exactly that - simply pick the case out, check the production credits and away you go. Sometimes though, it needs a bit of digging around. The catalogue number won't necessarily be your sole guide and you need to identify a specific release by more than that alone.

And then there's times, and it'll be more often than you'd credit, where you do just *** out, go into a secondhand record shop and there'll be a CD that fits the bill. I've had the long and winding internet trail, and I've had the happy chance find. Both are just as rewarding in the long run, but that might just be the geek in me!