upgrading my beats mixr - choosing between 3 pairs

[gilbenmoshe]

Hi,

I have a (one year old) pair of beats mixr , they are good , really good but not the best in their category and that's the reason I would like to upgrade to a new pair.

My music is mainly pop r&b and rock though I have a bit from everything. (Deep powerfull bass is important)

I would like my headphones to have the following features:

- Good look - really good look!

-Confortable

-Detailed sound

-Good bass - deep and powerfull

- Natural sound

-No sound leakage (no open back design)

The three best options I found are

*B&W p5

* sennheiser momentum

*kef m500

*Bose qc3 (not my favorite option)

I know I have a lot of demands and expectations but you are the experts and I trust you to help me find the best pair (I do not! trust apple's sellers (or maybe bose's sellers)).

Suggesting other headphones will be much apperciated as well

Thanks a lot!

 

[quadpatch]

Hi Gil,

I don't think that the B&W P5 is that bass heavy and I don't know much about the Kef. I also feel the need to point out that powerful bass and natural sound is kind of contradictory in headphones, at least that's the way I see it for the price point you seem to be looking at and being closed won't help either. That said here are a couple more to look at that might suit your needs, but you really need to try them at this point after you have the recommendations from us...

Denon AH-D600 - this would be my choice for bass so far

V-Moda M-100 - not my favourite overall, but it certainly has deep poweful bass and looks... and design..... and build (comfort is ok)

Sennheiser Amperior - I think I like this more than the Momentum, it's bass is a bit overly powerful in an odd way, but well worth considering

What's your price limit btw?

 

[dalethorn]

The Beyerdynamic COP would be my top recommendation, followed by some of those items Quadpatch mentioned. It is distinctly bass-oriented, but the bass does not mask or overwrite the midrange, and the treble is as smooth as silk. In fact, I think the COP sounds like an M100 that's been modified to be more of a musical headphone than a head-banger.

 

[gilbenmoshe]

First of all thanks for your answers

As for the bass thing I ment to say that the bass should be natural but should sound nice. I mean there are some headphones in the market which emphasize the bass over other things (which I dont like) and there are some which doesnt have a good bass at all. I am searching for a pair that will not emphasize the bass but if there is a powerfull bass in the song it will do it well.

As for the price I do not really have a limitation ... maybe something around 500 euros but if the headphones really worths it I will pay more..

Anyway thank you very much I will try to check all the mentioned above headphones!

 

[dalethorn]

First of all thanks for your answers As for the bass thing I ment to say that the bass should be natural but should sound nice. I mean there are some headphones in the market which emphasize the bass over other things (which I dont like) and there are some which doesnt have a good bass at all. I am searching for a pair that will not emphasize the bass but if there is a powerfull bass in the song it will do it well. As for the price I do not really have a limitation ... maybe something around 500 euros but if the headphones really worths it I will pay more.. Anyway thank you very much I will try to check all the mentioned above headphones!

Here is something important to remember: If you listen and do nothing else, just sit still in a quiet place and listen, the bass of a B&O will be perfect. But if you do anything else, whether it is being outdoors, on public transport, reading, cruising the Internet, gaming - anything that commands even the minimum attention away from the music listening, then the bass of the COP becomes more ideal. This effect is similar to the Fletcher-Munson "loudness" effect, where the impact of the bass is the first thing to go, to be diminished in proportion to the midrange, if the volume level drops, or in my example, it drops effectively in proportion to the loss of attention.

 

[gilbenmoshe]

Once again thanks for answering

Did you mean B&W ?

If not which pair of B&O would you recommend?

Actually I am planning to use them mainly on the go but most of the time not in a noisy places..

 

[dalethorn]

Once again thanks for answering Did you mean B&W ? If not which pair of B&O would you recommend? Actually I am planning to use them mainly on the go but most of the time not in a noisy places..

The B&W P5 is well known as a warm-neutral headphone that's shy on both ends - lower bass and upper treble. The B&O H6 sounds like a P5 that has had the lower bass and upper treble restored.

 

[SolarGlider]

When you want bass definitely don't forget HD25 II or amperior (the one I have)

The HD 25 II is a rock god and the amperior is the successor of this model but some don't think it's justified to pay extra.

I did it because I could get it cheaper at my job.

The bass is something that imho no other supra-aural in that price class comes close to without sacrificing mids and highs.

I love my amperior for rock, electronics, acoustical (like Rodrigo y Gabriela) and the occasional R&B song that shows its might in the lows.

I wouldn't recommend it for classical or jazz, that why the momentum exists.

 

[gilbenmoshe]

Well I will definitely take both into consideration (though they are not as "stylish" and well designed as the other pairs suggested).

About B&O .. I really like the design and I read they are really comfortable but I am worried about the sound..

B&O has a legacy of an avarage (sometimes poor) sound covered by a fancy design .. Is it the case with the B&O h6 ?

How would they sound compared to the momentum and b&w p5 ? (I havent heard the other pairs suggested yet). I mean in terms like balance soundstage details and bass quality ?

 

[dalethorn]

Well I will definitely take both into consideration (though they are not as "stylish" and well designed as the other pairs suggested). About B&O .. I really like the design and I read they are really comfortable but I am worried about the sound. B&O has a legacy of an avarage (sometimes poor) sound covered by a fancy design .. Is it the case with the B&O h6 ? How would they sound compared to the momentum and b&w p5 ? (I havent heard the other pairs suggested yet). I mean in terms like balance soundstage details and bass quality ?

The H6 sounds like a much better P5, with greater clarity, firmer and tighter bass, etc. The Momentum has a fatter upper bass, but the lower bass isn't as good as the H6. While the H6 treble is nearly flat and non-irritating, the Momentum is emphasized in the lower treble and badly recessed in the upper treble. So the Momentum has that fat warm low end and lively but less detailed high end, much like the P5 but moreso. I've had the P5 for a couple years. I used it for a few weeks, then my wife adopted it for several months when she abandoned it for the ATH ESW9a. I had the Momentum for several months along with the Amperior, and gave both of those away. I have a Momentum Junior on the way from the U.K. right now, and I have no idea how it will sound. BTW, if you took the Momentum and made that fat upper bass even stronger and very solid, and raised the upper treble, that would be the Amperior.

 

[gilbenmoshe]

Ok now everything is clear

Thanks a lot !

My favorite pair for now is the H6 but I will still have to listen to all of the suggested pairs to decide

 

[quadpatch]

The H6 sounds like a much better P5, with greater clarity, firmer and tighter bass, etc. The Momentum has a fatter upper bass, but the lower bass isn't as good as the H6. While the H6 treble is nearly flat and non-irritating, the Momentum is emphasized in the lower treble and badly recessed in the upper treble. So the Momentum has that fat warm low end and lively but less detailed high end, much like the P5 but moreso. I've had the P5 for a couple years. I used it for a few weeks, then my wife adopted it for several months when she abandoned it for the ATH ESW9a. I had the Momentum for several months along with the Amperior, and gave both of those away. I have a Momentum Junior on the way from the U.K. right now, and I have no idea how it will sound. BTW, if you took the Momentum and made that fat upper bass even stronger and very solid, and raised the upper treble, that would be the Amperior.

That's consistent with what I've noticed as well. I like the Amperior for exactly the reasons you say and because I can EQ the bass down if I feel the need to, but generally I use them when I want mental bass from a portable headphone anyway. The Ameriors felt a bit more reliably interesting than the Momentum because of what you said about the treble (uneven-ness).

Despite my love (and often neeed) for a strong bass presentation the B&O H6 imediate stood out to me in the shop as sounding balanced and exciting, as it did to my wife (who is quite picky with her headphones). So far I have only spent time with the H6 in a shop, but it's already really impressed me. The Size, weight and general comfort seem great also.

 

[dalethorn]

Despite my love (and often neeed) for a strong bass presentation the B&O H6 imediate stood out to me in the shop as sounding balanced and exciting, as it did to my wife (who is quite picky with her headphones). So far I have only spent time with the H6 in a shop, but it's already really impressed me. The Size, weight and general comfort seem great also.

Someone at headfonia suggested the Mahler 5th to me, so I obtained the Tilson-Thomas SFS version and played that today on the H6. There were only a couple places in the entire symphony where I had a sensation of weight to any instruments, but overall the sense of low end was there - not the least bit thin by any means. On any of my references for bass - quite a few of those - the H6 is solid.

 

[dalethorn]

Postscript to the preceding: I nearly always use the iPhone as my source, by itself or to an amp or DAC/amp. After listening to the Mahler 5th a couple of times with the DAC/amp, from computer DAC and Apple-compatible DAC, I got the feeling this recording was not bringing out the best of the B&O H6 as far as filling out the low end is concerned. So I switched to the Decware Zen Head - problem solved. I don't understand why I nearly always get an impression of thin bass (or thinner than otherwise) with my computer DACs. Maybe they just don't have enough power for slightly inefficient headphones. And the H6 is slightly inefficient.

 

[bobshek]

From what you have described up above, I would look at Vmoda M100s.

I recently owned a pair and for chart stuff (pop, rock, dance, hip hop, rnb) they are soooo much fun and suit your needs perfectly.

They were on sale recently in amazon.fr (france) for a silly cheap price (£180 roughly).

They also look really cool with a metal modern look.

My music tastes go well beyond chart stuff though and has a lot of vocal, classical, etc hence me returning them.

I do miss how they sound for my Billboard and UK Chart stuff though :doh:

 

[Andy Madden]

Hi all! At this point i should probably flag up we've got a on/over ear headphone test coming up in the Nov issue of the magazine. Prices start at £200/220 and include the KEFs, B&Ws, Sennheisers and a couple fo brand new models too!

 

[dalethorn]

From what you have described up above, I would look at Vmoda M100s. I recently owned a pair and for chart stuff (pop, rock, dance, hip hop, rnb) they are soooo much fun and suit your needs perfectly. They were on sale recently in amazon.fr (france) for a silly cheap price (£180 roughly). They also look really cool with a metal modern look. My music tastes go well beyond chart stuff though and has a lot of vocal, classical, etc hence me returning them. I do miss how they sound for my Billboard and UK Chart stuff though :doh:

You should be very careful not to get a fake v-moda. Val Kolton has issued a number of warnings about clones of his headphones being offered by (of course) unauthorized dealers at prices almost too good to be true.

 

[gilbenmoshe]

Why November?

long time to wait

 

[dalethorn]

Why November?

long time to wait

Why indeed? I just bought my second set of the v-moda M100 - the perfect $300 headphone. And here is a secret these other guys won't tell you, because they think you shouldn't know: The M100 has a *very* boosted bass when played without EQ, but flick the switch - set ipod/iphone bass reduction on (or the equivalent in other software), and now you have a slightly dark, lush, warm full-bodied sound with crystal clear mids and smooth treble that will play everything from Sinatra to Heavy Metal with aplomb. I'm enjoying the heck out of mine right now.

 

[quadpatch]

I just bought my second set of the v-moda M100 - the perfect $300 headphone. And here is a secret these other guys won't tell you, because they think you shouldn't know:

Seriously? Who around here says the M-100 is rubbish apart from me? I mentioned EQ adjustment in my M-100 review. I said back then that mine felt rather lacking even with bass reduction applied and I still find that. EQ adjustments are such a pain going from different sources and different headphones / speakers, I think it annoys most people more than me, if they can be bothered with it at all. I've let a few people try the M-100 that liked the M-80 and nobody has liked the M-100 so far. Perhaps there's variation between the units, but they make a big deal about checking for that, so maybe they've generally improved the driver since the original.

The M100 has a *very* boosted bass when played without EQ, but flick the switch - set ipod/iphone bass reduction on (or the equivalent in other software), and now you have a slightly dark, lush, warm full-bodied sound with crystal clear mids and smooth treble that will play everything from Sinatra to Heavy Metal with aplomb. I'm enjoying the heck out of mine right now.

Are you saying that your opinion about the M-100 has changed with your second purchase? It sounds like you're bigging it up a little more than before, but I remember you liked them the first time.

I get why they make the M-100 bassy as hell, they're going for the Beats crowd. I just wish they'd learned their lesson with the M-80 and were more honest about it. Just call it an LP3 FFS!!!

 

[dalethorn]

Seriously? Who around here says the M-100 is rubbish apart from me? I mentioned EQ adjustment in my M-100 review. I said back then that mine felt rather lacking even with bass reduction applied and I still find that. EQ adjustments are such a pain going from different sources and different headphones / speakers, I think it annoys most people more than me, if they can be bothered with it at all. I've let a few people try the M-100 that liked the M-80 and nobody has liked the M-100 so far. Perhaps there's variation between the units, but they make a big deal about checking for that, so maybe they've generally improved the driver since the original.

You are obviously the sole exception in headphonedom. I'm sure that you're aware that all other reviewers avoid EQ'ing headphones for an actual review.

Are you saying that your opinion about the M-100 has changed with your second purchase? It sounds like you're bigging it up a little more than before, but I remember you liked them the first time.

I probably haven't changed my opinion any more than what change would occur for any headphone as the result of extended listening and comparisons to other headphones. But, since I did purchase a second set of the M100, to get the matte black, I had the unusual opportunity to explore the world of bass** after immersing myself in the leaner more 'neutral' realm of the B&O H6 and a few other comparable headphones. And the difference was shocking, not to overuse that term either. I like the sound OK - can't be absolutely certain that it's not fatiguing, I love the look, I'm a long time fan and sometimes resident of Hollywood, and huge fan of the vampire/goth genre etc. So there may be something there....

**The M100 played WITH bass reduction is a very warm and very dark experience - a different world from the B&O H6, for example.

EDIT: But the main reason I posted what I did was to sell the user who was agonizing over all the choices. 'Gaming' was a big clue - get the M100, a boom mic etc. == gamer bliss.

 

[quadpatch]

I'm sure that you're aware that all other reviewers avoid EQ'ing headphones for an actual review.

True I haven't seen any others do it other than yourself and other forum enthusiasts. I think most people don't think about it or are too lazy to get into it rather than actively avoiding the topic though. About 2 minutes before I read your message I was trying to EQ down the M-100 once more and I couldn't do it with the iPhone through Spotify, perhaps I am missing something here, but you have to admit it's a bit of a mine field. I don't think anyone is against me mentioning it in reviews. I get stuff loaned to me (sometimes given) by distributors and manufacturers and none of them have ever tried to push me away from doing or saying anything.

after immersing myself in the leaner more 'neutral' realm of the B&O H6 and a few other comparable headphones. And the difference was shocking, not to overuse that term either. I like the sound OK - can't be absolutely certain that it's not fatiguing.

Wow, going from the H6 to the M-100?! I think shocking is the right word

I love the look, I'm a long time fan and sometimes resident of Hollywood, and huge fan of the vampire/goth genre etc. So there may be something there....

**The M100 played WITH bass reduction is a very warm and very dark experience - a different world from the B&O H6, for example.

EDIT: But the main reason I posted what I did was to sell the user who was agonizing over all the choices. 'Gaming' was a big clue - get the M100, a boom mic etc. == gamer bliss.

Fair enough, I had forgotten about the OPs original request. I absolutely love the look and build of the matt black M-100, it's seriously the sexiest headphone I've ever seen and I still haven't sold it purely for that reason alone. If V-Moda make another one with much less bassy sound I will probably get it, but even the post EQ bass reduction is too much (too dark and warm perhaps) for me to live with.

 

[quadpatch]

I feel the need to explain this every time I say negative things about the M-100 - I'm not against bass being extremely potent. I really enjoyed the Denon AH-D600 (albeit a short demo), I also really like the Fostex TH-600 and the Grado PS-1000. Those bad-boys have some real low end grunt! At the moment I am listening to the Hifiman HE-500. Admitedly not quite so potent, but probably some of the best bass detail I've heard and when driven by something like the Audiolab M-DAC, Schiit Magni or the Ifi iCAN (with 3 stage bass boost) Hip-hop or Dubstep etc. sound amazing!

 

[dalethorn]

I think most people don't think about it or are too lazy to get into it rather than actively avoiding the topic though.

I don't think anyone is against me mentioning it in reviews. I get stuff loaned to me (sometimes given) by distributors and manufacturers and none of them have ever tried to push me away from doing or saying anything.

I think you're missing the concept here. Mfrs. and distributors who loan the stuff aren't going to say anything, but they will avoid promoting your review in the various and subtle ways they do such things if you say their headphone is unacceptable or unlistenable without EQ. I know this for a fact. And I have said that about every headphone I've purchased in the past two years except the H6, the COP, the Bose AE2i**, and the Grado PS500. In the case of the PS500, although I did EQ the upper bass hump, I minced my words in the review so that Grado would feature my review prominently on their product page. **Although I found the AE2i to be balanced well enough to be playable without EQ, the sound still didn't impress me as being a high quality headphone, probably because Bose EQs their headphones rather than building in resonance control with physical means.

It isn't the mfrs. or distributors' agents who contact you directly to suggest you do or don't say certain things, it's the mfrs. and distributors' paid trolls who complain in the comments on your reviews who do that. And they vigorously deny any connection to their sponsors or employers. If you want a great sampling of that read the comments to my youtube reviews. One frequent poster asked me "Is there anything you recommend that doesn't require EQ?"

 

[dalethorn]

I feel the need to explain this every time I say negative things about the M-100 - I'm not against bass being extremely potent. I really enjoyed the Denon AH-D600 (albeit a short demo), I also really like the Fostex TH-600 and the Grado PS-1000. Those bad-boys have some real low end grunt! At the moment I am listening to the Hifiman HE-500. Admitedly not quite so potent, but probably some of the best bass detail I've heard and when driven by something like the Audiolab M-DAC, Schiit Magni or the Ifi iCAN (with 3 stage bass boost) Hip-hop or Dubstep etc. sound amazing.

Well, every headphone is different, and I don't say that rhetorically - pick any headphone with a very strong bass and then try to match that with any given user whose requirement is almost certainly going to be different from what you recommend, because of the difficulty of conveying the exact character of the sound through words alone. And there are so many other factors that influence a user's impressions. I score with users maybe half the time, and I feel terrible when I miss, even when the user failed to clarify certain important requirements they had. I can recommend the M100 to most users who like a warm low end IF they are willing to EQ according to my suggestions, but only a few actually do that - most just play it flat even after consulting with me, then they go post complaints elsewhere.