Upgrade/sidegrade from Primare I30 - more power and punch wanted.

[admin_exported]

Hi all!

It seems I've more or less reached the end of the road with my Primare I30.

I love almost everything about this amp but I'm beginning to feel I'd like a bit more slam/punch. There is lots of bass, and pretty good one too, but I feel I would like a bit more explosiveness. Kicks, snares and rimshots for example feel a bit too soft.

My speakers are GamuT Phi7's. By no means an easy load. Optimistically rated at 4ohm/90dB, but that seems way off and is confirmed by a review. Efficiency is more like 87dB and they drop to 2.7ohm and if I understand the review correctly - when taking phase angle into account the "EPDR" is low as 1.2ohms at 98hz... (Source: http://www.gamutaudio.com/media/pdf/reviews/phi7-highly-commended.pdf). And no, there is no way I'm changing speakers! I demo'd a lot of speakers before deciding on these. (Speakers I tried include Audiovector S3 super, Elac 247, Thiel 1.6, QRS Merkurius II, Totem Hawks, GamuT Phi5, some B&W's and a few others.. Even had several of them at home.) I love my Phi7's 🙂

I guess the combinition of these speakers being a pretty akward load and the Primare's a bit laid back and easy sound is the reason for me feeling I lack a bit attack..

So, the million dollar question is; What would be a nice upgrade from the I30? Keeping in mind that I do love the Primare sound in many ways. Basically I want something that sounds like the Primare but with more explosiveness, more punch/attack/slam...

My budget right now is very limited so if I am to upgrade any time soon it has to be a used amp - which of course limits the demo possibilities... From reading stuff I think that perhaps the Krell 400xi or Hegel's H200 would get the job done, punch wise at least. But I'm afraid they might sound harsh or clinical? What about the MF A5, does it have any slam?

Kind of lost here... But I'm pretty sure that I do need a pretty much more powerful amp than the I30. So more than 100w/40a.. Guessing 200w/60+A or something...

Any ideas would be appreciated 🙂

Regards

 

[the_dude2]

Have you thought about getting a Primare power amp and bi-amping? And whats your CDP?

 

[Anonymous]

Could search out Gamut amplification .....

Or my personal choice would be for Simaudio Moon (having started with their i3, then i5 and now pre/power) ..... should give you the punch you desire. ......

 

[Anonymous]

when I started reading your post, the Krell and MF was what I was going to suggest, but see that those are on you list already

I have heard both but with different speakers/cdp's and in different rooms.... If I had to choose one, ... I would try and audition first with my own cdp and speakers ...

they are both good IMHO and reasonably priced (you can get a good musical fidelity A5 for approx £800) ... have seen the Krell on buy it nows for £1100

 

[MattSPL]

Do you know if the amp has any internal fuses or speaker output fuses?

My krell kav 300i has 4 internal fuses, 2 speaker fuses and an Ac inlet fuse. I replaced all of these with hifi tuning silver fuses and replaced the power lead and its plug fuse. I gained great improvements in detail, dynamics and punch.

But if your speakers are such a difficult load, maybe keep the primare as you like its sound and buy a used Krell FPB200 or 300. Available for between £2000 and £3500 depending on model and where purchased.

I struggled with an Arcam A22 amp with some PMC IB1's and upgraded to a Krell FPB200 and it had the punch of a Night club system with the finesse of a recording studio

 

[Anonymous]

I really don't think the MF A5 or A5.5 will be any better than the I30. Sounds like you should audition the matching power amp to biamp with the I30. Having the amps in parallel will give you a big rise in available current so ought to give you the clout you need. Strikes me as logical! Well, at least until you can afford an Ayre or Gamut amp

 

[Anonymous]

I have never bi-amped so don't know all the details so perhaps that is a better solution?...

looking at a 'stand alone', setup, the Primare I30 delivers 100 watts @ 8 Ohms and the MF and Krell delivers 250 watts @ 8 Ohms ...

 

[MattSPL]

You will need an amp that is stable at 2ohm's in order to get the bass control you need. This isn't an easy thing to find, especially in a new amp at an affordable price. Gamut's D150 intergrated amp is rated down to 2ohm. Most 'normal' amps are only rated to 4ohm including the krell Kav 400xi. They will drive a 2ohm load when needed but not for long period's and especially not with good bass slam.

And considering you say your speaker dips to 1.2ohm, you really need a good power amp to control them.

 

[Anonymous]

dim_span:
I have never bi-amped so don't know all the details so perhaps that is a better solution?...

looking at a 'stand alone', setup, the Primare I30 delivers 100 watts @ 8 Ohms and the MF and Krell delivers 250 watts @ 8 Ohms ...

Just because an amp has more Watts doesn't always mean that it delivers more current nor that it can do it well into a difficult load. Further, it's the quality of the amp not just the quantity and the I30 is very good in it's class. There's always a chance that the MF amps give a preferrable tone over the I30 though. Speaking of MF, maybe you can find a kW series amp around. Just my two pence worth.

 

[chebby]

ATC SIA2-150

Review

Pure class A up to about 100 watts of it's 150 watts per channel.

 

[batonwielder]

I have no experience with your speakers, but I know Primare I30 quite well. They are exactly as you describe, laid back and easy.

I don't think you need any more power as the Primare itself is a very sophisticated and powerful machine. Have a listen to Exposure 3010S. It's refined like Primare but with more incisiveness and punch.

 

[Anonymous]

chebby:

ATC SIA2-150

Review

Pure class A up to about 100 watts of it's 150 watts per channel.

costs £2376 ... that opens all new possibilities, especially on the used market

 

[Anonymous]

chebby:

ATC SIA2-150

Review

Pure class A up to about 100 watts of it's 150 watts per channel.

oops! ... I see what Chebby is saying here ... 100 watts at class A ... and only a 150 watt amp ... I still have lots to learn

 

[Anonymous]

Wow! Many replies! Thanks all!

I'm in Sweden so not all of the proposed stuff is available, especially used.

The Simaudio i7 seems nice, though almost as expensive as Gamut stuff.. but one can always dream 😉

I have thought about bi-amping but when reading up a bit on the subject I got the impression that it's pretty useless unless using active filters? Besides, I'm not sure that even the Primare A32 would be right for me, I think the laid back / easy sound of the Primare is what's bothering me to begin with. I like the refined sound of it but for my taste and speakers I would like some more hard hitting amp. As some of you have pointed out - the I30 has a stiff power supply and I don't really hear it shoking, breaking up or compressing when turning the volume knob up pretty high. So I'm beginning to think that it's 100w/40A isn't the main problem.

A Krell FPB200 was an interesting idea. I've always thought about Krells (separates) as way out of my reach, but I did a search and found an old ad for a used one here in Sweden going for about £2000. It seems to be a pretty awesome amp, so I think I might start saving up and keeping a look out for one those 🙂

Any thoughts about the Primare Pre30? Would that work with the FPB200 or is the Primare's laid back (a bit of punch-lacking) sound already in the Pre? Any other pre you would recommend? I would very much like to break even selling my I30 and getting a pre. (Used of course).

Regards

 

[Anonymous]

I'm in Sweden so not all of the proposed stuff is available, especially used

with ebay, you can buy worldwide (new or used) and you will be 'spoilt' for choice

 

[MattSPL]

I used to own a Krell FPB200 and they are in a completly different league to say a Krell intergrated. Tank like build weighing 45kg(7 stone) and huge bass slam and ultimate control over the loudspeaker. A bargain second hand. I will be buying one again in the future when ive the money.

If you like the primare sound, partnering the pre30 with the krell will give you the primare sound with the power and bass of Krell.

You can even get an FPB 600 for nearly the same cost but they use massive amounts of electricity

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the input folks.

There seems to be a demo'd Krell 400xi available at a HiFi store in my town (if their site is up to date that is). I will probably check with them if I can do a home demo, although I think their asking price is too high for a demo'd product that is no longer in production :/

I'm quite curious abot the 400xi, there are so very diffrent oppinions about it. Some love it and others hate it. What scares me are the bench results from Stereophile and that some people says it can be harsh and too analytical. Well well... only a home trial will tell.

I do not however feel any kind of panic. My system produces some amazing music and I think I might give the fuse tip a go. There are at least two fuses in the signal path as far as I can tell. I'll see if I can find some "HiFi proof" ones for a reasonable price to replace them. Did a quick search and came up with some Furutech ones but the price tag was just hillarious. 😛

Regards

 

[Anonymous]

Hi - how did you go with the Krell 400xi ?

I am in a similar situation (currently have the A30.1 but looking to upgrade). I've thought of the following options

- Adding A30.2 and bi amping

- Replacing the A30.1 with a A30.2 and Pre 30 combo

- Replacing the integrated with a Krell 400 or Plinius 9200

Very interested in your thoughts on the Krell and what you ended up choosing as an upgrade.