Upgrade advice please

admin_exported

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I'm hoping you good people can give me a bit of advice. I haven't done any Hi-Fi upgrading in a while but feel it's about time I started again. I currently have an Audiolab 8000A amp, Arcam CD92 CD player, Tannoy DC2000 speakers and a Systemdek IIX900 record deck. As vinyl doesn't get played as much as CD's I thought the deck could wait until last. It'll probably have to be one item every 6 - 12 month but which would you advise looking at first?

I was thinking up to £1000 on each item. My thoughts were start with the amp? I considered the Naim Nait 5i but no phono stage so I guess that's out. I've heard good things about the Roksan candy K2 ( I currently bi-wire my Tannoys but i see this amp only has one set of speaker connections) and Cyrus was another option.

Any other suggestion's would be appreciated or perhaps you may think starting with the Cd player or speakers might be better? Also with the £1000 budget on each item will I get decent upgrades from my current system?

Thanks in anticipation of your advice. :)
 
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Anonymous

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I think it might be handy to know what it is about your current system that you arent enjoying/what its lacking etc...

Also what type of room is your system in (living room, dining room, spare room, carpeted, wooden floors etc...)?
 
Paul_F said:
I'm hoping you good people can give me a bit of advice. I haven't done any Hi-Fi upgrading in a while but feel it's about time I started again. I currently have an Audiolab 8000A amp, Arcam CD92 CD player, Tannoy DC2000 speakers and a Systemdek IIX900 record deck. As vinyl doesn't get played as much as CD's I thought the deck could wait until last. It'll probably have to be one item every 6 - 12 month but which would you advise looking at first?

I was thinking up to £1000 on each item. My thoughts were start with the amp? I considered the Naim Nait 5i but no phono stage so I guess that's out. I've heard good things about the Roksan candy K2 ( I currently bi-wire my Tannoys but i see this amp only has one set of speaker connections) and Cyrus was another option.

Any other suggestion's would be appreciated or perhaps you may think starting with the Cd player or speakers might be better? Also with the £1000 budget on each item will I get decent upgrades from my current system?

Thanks in anticipation of your advice. :)

In addition to Nad_fanatic comments, look at Audiolabs new offerings. If you like the current set-up I'd look at upgrading the Arcam CDP to a CD37 (s/hand). However, Audiolab 8200 CDP has a built-in DAC which may sway it if you're looking for an alternative to a TT.
 
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Nad_fanatic said:
I think it might be handy to know what it is about your current system that you arent enjoying/what its lacking etc...

Also what type of room is your system in (living room, dining room, spare room, carpeted, wooden floors etc...)?

To be honest it's not really a case of not enjoying my current system, i have been very happy with it which is why I've kept it so long. My thoughts on upgrading are more based on after having the amp and speakers for 20 years I must be missing out on considerable improvements that have been made in that time. The Arcam is not so old of course and the most expensive piece of kit in my system so I guess going to be the hardest to improve on if I stick to a £1000 budget for each. In fact considering it cost around £800 (if memory serves) 10 years or so ago can I improve on it (with inflation etc) for under a grand?

incidently, my system is in the living room and it's carpeted.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestion's so far. I'm going to check some of these out.

Should of mentioned that I listen mainly to rock, especially prog and also metal, blues and a bit of jazz now and then.
 

toyota man

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Hi Paul_F I replaced my 8000a + 8000px with an mf m6i which improved my system more than when I added my new cdp see sig I used to have a marantz cd 17 ki sig the mf m3i is a very fine amp and within your budget I am sure once you have listened to it if you can you will know just how good it is although I dont think it has a phono stage arcam do a good one under £100 which has been tested in whf good luck I am sure there will be other amps suggested rega etc
 
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Anonymous

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Thanks for the suggestion Toyota Man. I'll look into it. :)
 
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Anonymous

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Tubes - hadn't really considered them. Isn't that going to take me well over my £1000 budget though?
 

CnoEvil

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Paul_F said:
Tubes - hadn't really considered them. Isn't that going to take me well over my £1000 budget though?

Tube amps from the likes of Pure Sound (A10) and Icon Audio (Stereo 25 Mk11 / Stereo 20) can be got for under £1k.

If you hunt about, you can often get an ex-dem Pure Sound A30 for £1k.

All the above will need efficient speakers, but it's well worth the effort.
 

Macspur

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CnoEvil said:
Paul_F said:
Tubes - hadn't really considered them. Isn't that going to take me well over my £1000 budget though?

Tube amps from the likes of Pure Sound (A10) and Icon Audio (Stereo 25 Mk11 / Stereo 20) can be got for under £1k. If you hunt about, you can often get an ex-dem Pure Sound A30 for £1k. All the above will need efficient speakers, but it's well worth the effort.

Or perhaps a nice little class A sugden A21? can be had off the net within budget.

Cheers

Mac
 

SpursGator

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Paul_F said:
I'm hoping you good people can give me a bit of advice. I haven't done any Hi-Fi upgrading in a while but feel it's about time I started again. I currently have an Audiolab 8000A amp, Arcam CD92 CD player, Tannoy DC2000 speakers and a Systemdek IIX900 record deck. As vinyl doesn't get played as much as CD's I thought the deck could wait until last. It'll probably have to be one item every 6 - 12 month but which would you advise looking at first?

I was thinking up to £1000 on each item. My thoughts were start with the amp?

So here is my advice for you - but I will make it slightly more complex for you by giving you two versions: conservative and more radical.

The conservative advice is that, yes, you could do several interesting upgrades to your system in several 1000-quid steps. As others have pointed out, you could get into the bottom of the tube amp world at that price, and you could go for a used example of a great solid state integrated (a Roksan Caspian, Leema Pulse, or other usual suspect could be had on eBay surely) - you would need to listen to your system for like, 4 seconds to hear your upgrade, if you did this).

Those Tannoys could be upgraded as well I suppose. You always have to be careful since it depends which amp you buy. But at that price you could buy DC6Ts, Neat Motives, or if you were luckly enough to find a used pair, ProAc Studio 140s. This would be the purchase where you go out with your new amp in tow and listen to a million pairs of speakers (or better yet, find a shop who will let you take home a demo pair, so you can listen to them in your briefs, which I find helps the definition, especially of floor-standers).

You could buy a nice DAC for a grand. I paid around 600 quid for the original Benchmark DAC1 back in 2002 and it's hard to imagine ever giving it up unless I go into hedge funds. But you already have a pretty good CD player - not sure how much better you will really get CDs to sound (though I guarantee they sound better through my Benchmark even if played on an internal computer CD drive sitting open on a table). But the difference is quite subtle compared to an amp upgrade.

My more radical advice builds on two of the points above. I would state (and I am planning a ranting original post on this subject when I'm ready for the flame war - I will show my cards here so my enemies may plan their defence) that one of the fundamental assumptions that you make - and that so many others make, as it is one of the basic religiously-touted Rules of the hifi industry - is that you ought to buy components that are roughly in the same price range.

THIS IS CRAP CRAP CRAP. Let's say, for arguments sake, that you are planning to spend four grand on upgrading a hypothetical system. Let's also assume that, again for the sake of argument, that your existing components are "worth" 500 pounds each (in sound quality not money, since we are also adopting the assumption of the Rule, that investment in price yields a roughly uniform increase in SQ through the whole system).

So if you have four components, you could follow the Rule and get a doubling of the theoretical quality of each piece, as follows:

Source 1: 500 > 1000

Source 2: 500 > 1000

Amp: 500 > 1000

Speakers: 500 > 1000

So let's say I, as a Free Thinker, elect to thumb my nose at the rule, and do this instead:

Source 1: 500

Source 2: 500

Amp: 500 > 4000

Speakers: 500

So who has the better sound? IT IS A NO-BRAINER. For four grand you could buy - and this is one of many examples, not a recommendation - a Bryston 2B SST2 or a Sugden IA-4 and still have enough left over to buy a decent DAC. Your system would be catapulted into another dimension of sound. You think your Tennoys are outdated. Maybe...but try hooking them up to an amp likeone of those and discover their rebirth.

I realise that part of the approach is the fact that it's easier to spend a grand at a time, rather than exercise a few years of patience (or the miracle of consumer credit) and do it all at once. But remember: four grand is still four grand.

Spending it a grand at a time gets you modest upgrades on your sources, a really nice, audible jump in amp quality, and in terms of the speakers, who knows. Might be better, might just be different. Spending it on the amp gets you a heart-pounding, spellbinding system, with a perfectly good CD player and perfectly good, if slightly dated, speakers.

Hope this is food for thought.

Kevin
 

CnoEvil

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SpursGator said:
I realise that part of the approach is the fact that it's easier to spend a grand at a time, rather than exercise a few years of patience (or the miracle of consumer credit) and do it all at once. But remember: four grand is still four grand.

Spending it a grand at a time gets you modest upgrades on your sources, a really nice, audible jump in amp quality, and in terms of the speakers, who knows. Might be better, might just be different. Spending it on the amp gets you a heart-pounding, spellbinding system, with a perfectly good CD player and perfectly good, if slightly dated, speakers.

Hope this is food for thought.

Kevin

If you get flamed, I will be caught in the "backdraft". I have always believed that the amp is the heart of the system, and cheaper speakers with a great amp sound better than the other way round (or even mediocre speakers with a mediocre amp).

Now saying all that, there are no absolute rules, and there are always exceptions depending on kit, synergy and taste.....though there is always a serious temptation to whack in the biggest speakers you can afford!

I also believe the source is more important than people realize, but (if digital) should take second place to the amp.
 
T

the record spot

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I doubt you need to spend £4k to improve your system, I'd keep your CD player, which is fine, likewise the speakers. Your tunrtable if you want to tkeep with the old vinyl will take a better arm, but don't go mad. The S/dek IIX900 was good. I'd upgrade the amp too, though I wouldn't spend hefty amounts on it.

The other alternative that will give you some impressive results is to look at the range of active speakers you can buy from around £1000 upwards. Once you start looking at some Genelecs for £1300 or the like, you're into a whole new area that can deliver some very fine and impressive results that give a different but just as impressive take on music replay.
 

CJSF

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CnoEvil said:
If you get flamed, I will be caught in the "backdraft". I have always believed that the amp is the heart of the system, and cheaper speakers with a great amp sound better than the other way round (or even mediocre speakers with a mediocre amp).

Now saying all that, there are no absolute rules, and there are always exceptions depending on kit, synergy and taste.....though there is always a serious temptation to whack in the biggest speakers you can afford!

I also believe the source is more important than people realize, but (if digital) should take second place to the amp.

CnoEvil,

As a dinosaur of the old school, to me, 'source is everything', this understanding has been eroded by modern 'forward thinking'? Digital, CD, streaming and all of the other modern mediums that cloud the truth; 'rubbish in, rubbish out'. Feed a true 'quality signal' into a half decent amp and a good sound will emerge from any respectable hifi speaker, be they cheap ie., 'Diamonds' or old like my own 20 plus years PMC LB1's.

There are bands of 'quality type', however one has found that a bit of mixing and matching can be very effective. The current way of splitting the budget into equal amounts stands to waste large sums of money and compromise the potential sound quality . . . just my personal view.

The biggest problem these days is auditioning to get those potential 'next step up' quality matches right. There are very few (compared with 20-30 years ago) decent shops that understand this or can give meaningful advise. It also seems to me, fewer customers who know what 'good music is'? Not surprising when one hears the tizz-tizz of an 'iPod' as someone strides down the street oblivious to the world around them, wrapped up in a rubbish sound that they think is the bees knees???? Also applies to dock type 'hifi?' and from what I read a dissatisfaction with streamed and wireless music . . . they are always wanting better, dont seem to know why? The modern; ‘there must be noise’ seems to have something to do with this maybe? . . . “never mind the quality feel the width”? :doh:

CJSF
 
T

the record spot

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CJSF said:
It also seems to me, fewer customers who know what 'good music is'? Not surprising when one hears the tizz-tizz of an 'iPod' as someone strides down the street oblivious to the world around them, wrapped up in a rubbish sound that they think is the bees knees????

CJSF

I think this demonstrates a lack of appreciation as to how good portable digital players are (your generic iPod term I assume refers to this). Once you have sufficient hard disk space to carry around with you (I have 32Gb on my iPod Touch) then WAV or FLAC files are not an issue, hence you have excellent sound quality, the onboard DAC is perfectly good and with good headphones, you're not lacking or missing out on anything. I use mine all the time and rate the performance highly.

And, given as I've been listening to music in its many source guises since the late 60s, I think I've a decent understanding of what good audio reproduction is about.
 

CnoEvil

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CJSF said:
CnoEvil,

As a dinosaur of the old school, to me, 'source is everything', this understanding has been eroded by modern 'forward thinking'? Digital, CD, streaming and all of the other modern mediums that cloud the truth; 'rubbish in, rubbish out'. Feed a true 'quality signal' into a half decent amp and a good sound will emerge from any respectable hifi speaker, be they cheap ie., 'Diamonds' or old like my own 20 plus years PMC LB1's.

There are bands of 'quality type', however one has found that a bit of mixing and matching can be very effective. The current way of splitting the budget into equal amounts stands to waste large sums of money and compromise the potential sound quality . . . just my personal view.

The biggest problem these days is auditioning to get those potential 'next step up' quality matches right. There are very few (compared with 20-30 years ago) decent shops that understand this or can give meaningful advise. It also seems to me, fewer customers who know what 'good music is'? Not surprising when one hears the tizz-tizz of an 'iPod' as someone strides down the street oblivious to the world around them, wrapped up in a rubbish sound that they think is the bees knees???? Also applies to dock type 'hifi?' and from what I read a dissatisfaction with streamed and wireless music . . . they are always wanting better, dont seem to know why? The modern; ‘there must be noise’ seems to have something to do with this maybe? . . . “never mind the quality feel the width”? :doh:

CJSF

There is certainly no "one size fits all", but due to the predominance of the "big names", a lot of great brands slip completely under the radar.

Where TTs are concerned, it is my opinion that the source takes on greater significance.....though saying that, a great system won't reach it's potential until the source is of the requisite quality.

It is also my view that more people would buy valve or hybrid if they were only aware of how good a sound can be achieved. (a misconception based on the sound of valves from years ago, along with a lack of general availabilty/promotion).
 

paradiziac

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Agree with amp first.

But I think a good starting point would be to go and listen to a few different 3K, 5-6K and 10K systems to see what you might be aiming at eventually.

I'd say 1000 (new prices) per component for a 2 source system is a little on the low side. You risk blowing 4K and ending up with something that sounds only just a bit better than your old system, while 6-8K would get you something truely worthwhile.

If you wouldn't spend that much (you could save about 50% by going used/active), you might be happier in the long run by sticking to budget gear, some of which is great fun and sounds pretty good.
 

CJSF

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CnoEvil said:
CJSF said:
CnoEvil,

As a dinosaur of the old school, to me, 'source is everything', this understanding has been eroded by modern 'forward thinking'? Digital, CD, streaming and all of the other modern mediums that cloud the truth; 'rubbish in, rubbish out'. Feed a true 'quality signal' into a half decent amp and a good sound will emerge from any respectable hifi speaker, be they cheap ie., 'Diamonds' or old like my own 20 plus years PMC LB1's.

There are bands of 'quality type', however one has found that a bit of mixing and matching can be very effective. The current way of splitting the budget into equal amounts stands to waste large sums of money and compromise the potential sound quality . . . just my personal view.

The biggest problem these days is auditioning to get those potential 'next step up' quality matches right. There are very few (compared with 20-30 years ago) decent shops that understand this or can give meaningful advise. It also seems to me, fewer customers who know what 'good music is'? Not surprising when one hears the tizz-tizz of an 'iPod' as someone strides down the street oblivious to the world around them, wrapped up in a rubbish sound that they think is the bees knees???? Also applies to dock type 'hifi?' and from what I read a dissatisfaction with streamed and wireless music . . . they are always wanting better, dont seem to know why? The modern; ‘there must be noise’ seems to have something to do with this maybe? . . . “never mind the quality feel the width”? :doh:

CJSF

There is certainly no "one size fits all", but due to the predominance of the "big names", a lot of great brands slip completely under the radar.

Where TTs are concerned, it is my opinion that the source takes on greater significance.....though saying that, a great system won't reach it's potential until the source is of the requisite quality.

It is also my view that more people would buy valve or hybrid if they were only aware of how good a sound can be achieved. (a misconception based on the sound of valves from years ago, along with a lack of general availabilty/promotion).

CnoEvil, I agree with the brands slipping under the radar. I agree sort of, about the source needing to be of quality. However, I will say that it has to relate to the cost of the system as a whole, which is where the balancing act comes in and one kicks convention out of the window, bending the rules?

My own system, with a P5 TT on the face of it is average, but it runs a £1350.00 MC cartridge (which I was lucky enough to pick up as a trade in for a tad over £200). The entry level integrated Croft amp is way over the 'entry level tag' it carries in price but also in performance, a dark horse if ever I have heard one. I have made various tweaks and upgrades, the amp simply steps up and performs, sings it heart out, as do the speakers, responding with pernash. The classic being matching a distinctly high end cartridge with, only one step up from entry level kit . . . you would not think there was such a price difference on the SQ alone? My humble opinion of course.

Its more difficult to do this it seems with CD and digital . . . at the lower end I perceive equipment changes are too often, sideways moves for their own sake? A different sound, is not a better sound IMHO.

Seems, one would have to dig deep into the pennies to make a significant upgrade in the world of digital? One also wonders where the comparison comes from if we accept that digital is simply a stream of '1's and 0's' ?????? :?

CJSF
 

floyd droid

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CnoEvil said:
Paul_F said:
Tubes - hadn't really considered them. Isn't that going to take me well over my £1000 budget though?

Tube amps from the likes of Pure Sound (A10) and Icon Audio (Stereo 25 Mk11 / Stereo 20) can be got for under £1k. If you hunt about, you can often get an ex-dem Pure Sound A30 for £1k. All the above will need efficient speakers, but it's well worth the effort.

Or a Yarland FV34B for around 500 quid.

But hey, this is non conforming scary glass things innit Cno,lol.

For the OP, at the very least try to dem a valve amp. But im biased (pun intended) :grin:
 

CnoEvil

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floyd droid said:
Or a Yarland FV34B for around 500 quid.

But hey, this is non conforming scary glass things innit Cno,lol.

For the OP, at the very least try to dem a valve amp. But im biased (pun intended) :grin:

:rofl:

You're absolutely right, and I think the OP needs to see the light (or the glow at any rate) as well!
 

floyd droid

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CnoEvil said:
floyd droid said:
Or a Yarland FV34B for around 500 quid.

But hey, this is non conforming scary glass things innit Cno,lol.

For the OP, at the very least try to dem a valve amp. But im biased (pun intended) :grin:

:rofl: You're absolutely right, and I think the OP needs to see the light (or the glow at any rate) as well!

Ouch, this place needs a tumbleweed smiley ;)
 

SpursGator

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the record spot said:
the onboard DAC is perfectly good

And, given as I've been listening to music in its many source guises since the late 60s, I think I've a decent understanding of what good audio reproduction is about.

The jitter on my iPod's DACs is clearly audible, even with a WAV file, even listening through my car amp. Even with mediocre headphones the degradation is obvious.

Which DAC did you listen to in the late 60s?

But seriously, source is key, but only up to a point, especially with digital. This guy has got a very nice CD player. How much better sound is he really going to get with a source upgrade without spending thousands and thousands?

But putting even 2 grand into the amp...he'll hear every penny.
 

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