Upgrade advice please

[Anonymous]

Thanks to everyone for sharing your very interesting views. I think what I'm realising from this is a Cd upgrade is going to be tough without spending quite a bit more money than I originally intended so I think that'll be the last to go. When i set out with the idea of spending around a £1000 on each, which incidently was not going to be all at the same time - a 6 month to year gap is likely, I hadn't really considered spending vastly different sums on each component, working on the basis that your system is only as good as the weakest link. I'm now becoming convinced otherwise and leaning more towards getting a more expensive amp, even if I have to wait a bit longer and take it from there.

Thanks agin to you all for your valuable input.

 

[floyd droid]

Should that have read 'Valveable' input ?.

 

[CnoEvil]

Should that have read 'Valveable' input ?.

Now you're just "tub(e) thumping!"

 

[floyd droid]

Hee hee.

 

[lindsayt]

So what do these £2000 to £4000 new solid state amps do that a high end American or Japanese 2nd hand amp doesn't for £150 to £1000?

If you absolutely must buy new, why not buy something like Avondale?

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks to everyone for sharing your very interesting views. I think what I'm realising from this is a Cd upgrade is going to be tough without spending quite a bit more money than I originally intended so I think that'll be the last to go. When i set out with the idea of spending around a £1000 on each, which incidently was not going to be all at the same time - a 6 month to year gap is likely, I hadn't really considered spending vastly different sums on each component, working on the basis that your system is only as good as the weakest link. I'm now becoming convinced otherwise and leaning more towards getting a more expensive amp, even if I have to wait a bit longer and take it from there.

Thanks agin to you all for your valuable input.

Paul, think of your system like a car:

- You can have a very sporty body that is all show, if there is nothing under the bonnet.

- You can upgrade the engine, but if you don't upgrade brakes/suspension/tyres, you will get a taste of the performance, but won't be able to maximize it.

- You can get everything upgraded bar the engine, but then the expensive upgrades are ott and unnecessary.

- Attention to detail is vital eg. without good air filters and a proper exhaust, the performance will be stifled.

- Finally, you can have everything in perfect balance, but if you use inferior 2* petrol, you won't get the proper performance.

 

[the record spot]

the onboard DAC is perfectly good

And, given as I've been listening to music in its many source guises since the late 60s, I think I've a decent understanding of what good audio reproduction is about.

The jitter on my iPod's DACs is clearly audible, even with a WAV file, even listening through my car amp. Even with mediocre headphones the degradation is obvious.

Which DAC did you listen to in the late 60s?

But seriously, source is key, but only up to a point, especially with digital. This guy has got a very nice CD player. How much better sound is he really going to get with a source upgrade without spending thousands and thousands?

But putting even 2 grand into the amp...he'll hear every penny.

Really, my word you must have VERY good ears...3rd Gen iPod Touch, across all musical genres, works a treat. Rather better than your claims would stand up in practice I imagine...

 

[SpursGator]

Really, my word you must have VERY good ears...3rd Gen iPod Touch, across all musical genres, works a treat. Rather better than your claims would stand up in practice I imagine...

You do not need ears as magnificent as my own to hear how ordinary an iPod DAC is.

Seriously, what's the best DAC you've compared it to? Even something like the Cambridge DACMagic sounds radically better, immediately evident even to those who resist.

Have you ever tried even a midrange DAC with your own equipment and made a real comparison? Saying that the differences between various DACs and CD players are small - that is one thing. But saying it's hard to hear the difference between a decent DAC and an iPod - with respect, that's completely absurd. Since you clearly love hifi and appreciate nice gear, I can only assume it's because you haven't seriously auditioned alternatives.

 

[Anonymous]

So what do these £2000 to £4000 new solid state amps do that a high end American or Japanese 2nd hand amp doesn't for £150 to £1000?

If you absolutely must buy new, why not buy something like Avondale?

I have nothing against buying second hand in principle - most of this quality gear is built to last so that shouldn't be an issue. The biggest problem is before I buy something I want to hear it which unless close to home is difficult and of course the seller may not be open to auditioning.

 

[lindsayt]

That's fair enough Paul. One possible solution is to get together with a few people who live near you who are into 2nd hand hi-fi. Go and visit them and listen to their systems. You can take along some of your own kit. The other thing to remember is that if you buy 2nd hand kit for the right price you'll be able to sell it for what you paid for it. There are also some dealers that specialise in 2nd hand kit and are really good at letting you listen before you commit to buying it.

 

[Anonymous]

The other thing to remember is that if you buy 2nd hand kit for the right price you'll be able to sell it for what you paid for it. There are also some dealers that specialise in 2nd hand kit and are really good at letting you listen before you commit to buying it.

That's a good point Lindsay, thanks.

 

[the record spot]

Really, my word you must have VERY good ears...3rd Gen iPod Touch, across all musical genres, works a treat. Rather better than your claims would stand up in practice I imagine...

You do not need ears as magnificent as my own to hear how ordinary an iPod DAC is.

Seriously, what's the best DAC you've compared it to? Even something like the Cambridge DACMagic sounds radically better, immediately evident even to those who resist.

Have you ever tried even a midrange DAC with your own equipment and made a real comparison? Saying that the differences between various DACs and CD players are small - that is one thing. But saying it's hard to hear the difference between a decent DAC and an iPod - with respect, that's completely absurd. Since you clearly love hifi and appreciate nice gear, I can only assume it's because you haven't seriously auditioned alternatives.

Had the DACMagic a couple of years ago and sent it back. Bright and completely uninvolving. Lovely build, connectivity you can't fault and sound so clinical it should've been sponsored by the NHS. Previous DACs tried include the Flying Cow, and Firestone Audio's Spitfire II amongst others. The iPod and 'phones I use leaves it standing.

That though is irrelevant. Your claim is that you can "hear" the jitter rattling your ears but I contend that's the greater nonsense. You're obviously of that "school" of thought that thinks jitter is so audible it rides over everything. I just think that's misinformation. Having played music I know extremely well, I know how it sounds and what's getting in the way, or in this case, not. The Touch is a fine piece of gear and rest assured, I've been through plenty.

In short, you're wrong. IMO of course.

 

[the record spot]

You do not need ears as magnificent as my own to hear how ordinary an iPod DAC is.

DACs are ordinary. They are churned out in their thousands. That doesn't make the corresponding performance the same though. I'd be surprised if most people didn't enjoy the Touch, or many other portable digital players. The iPod DAC might be oridinary, fair dos, but it's punching well above its weight if it is.

Seriously, what's the best DAC you've compared it to? Even something like the Cambridge DACMagic sounds radically better, immediately evident even to those who resist.

How far up the tree did you want to go. I have given my answer previously and my thoughts on Cambridge's DACMagic. But what did you want to compare it to? The Benchmark? The Weiss DAC202? More expensive? Less? Arcam's rDAC? The logic falls down on its backside. For a portable player it's excellent. But the performance stacks up against, albeit differently, the performance in my Marantz SA7001-KI or that found in Karman's HK990 amp. Quite.

Have you ever tried even a midrange DAC with your own equipment and made a real comparison? Saying that the differences between various DACs and CD players are small - that is one thing. But saying it's hard to hear the difference between a decent DAC and an iPod - with respect, that's completely absurd. Since you clearly love hifi and appreciate nice gear, I can only assume it's because you haven't seriously auditioned alternatives.

It's hard to pick up a Weiss with my Sennheiser's plugged in and the source hardware juggling away as I walk round town.

I did, however, use the iPod via an AEX in one system and through my Onkyo in the current one. Performance is excellent, as I expected. Of course, the Onkyo uses its own DAC.

I thought it worthwhile to give your question some fair answers; by all means, pass round the idea that better DACs exist. I stand by the comment I made re: your assertion that the iPod DAC is poor. Having been through a range of source material on the Touch, it's a fallacy on your part to say the performance is less than good.

 

[SpursGator]

Record Spot :

We can agree to disagree, and we can also agree that the DACs on an iPod Touch are not so bad, considering they probably account for about 80p in the cost of the player. So it's unfair to say they sound bad.

I also agree the Cambridge DACMagic is a little bright, certainly when it falls short, that's the most obvious criticism (it settles down somewhat with some run-in, especially via the balanced outputs). Certainly it isn't better than my Benchmark. But through a big amp the extra detail of the DACMagic is easily audible, especially with cymbols and lower bass.

I will admit that your post got my thinking - I went around with a pair of headphones (not great ones but midrange 8 year-old AKGs) and compared four different sources with the cans:

- iPhone 4GS

- iPad 3rd gen

- Cambridge DACMagic

- Benchmark DAC1

I have to admit that the differences were small - only the DAC1, through the headphone amp, sounded noticeably better (better as in clearer - it did not have huge punch via either jack). I also noticed that the DACMagic's brightness was more evident than through the amp.

I rarely listen through headphones. Through three different amps (Naim Nait 5, NAD 326Bee, Pathos Logos) the DACMagic (not to mention the Benchmark) is a far superior source than an iPod. But you're right, though headphones the difference is less pronounced or maybe nonexistent. I always assumed it was because I only have cheap headphones.

So maybe the reason we've drawn such different conclusions is we listen in very different ways. The iPod is designed for headphones, and the DACMagic was designed as a stereo source component...we are both arguing for the component designed for the way we each listen.

 

[paradiziac]

I don't see how you can easily compare just the DAC in the Touch with another DAC, if you plug headphones in, you're listening to the DAC+built-in headphone amp.

Through Ultimate Ears Triple Fi 10 IEM's, I'd say the sound is in the same ballpark as a budget hifi system.

 

[the record spot]

I don't think the point was to compare DACs but how good the music sounded. In my case anyway. However, it turns out though, the differences are pretty small as has been shown (and this is borne out elsewhere too).

 

[atticus]

I'm hoping you good people can give me a bit of advice. I haven't done any Hi-Fi upgrading in a while but feel it's about time I started again. I currently have an Audiolab 8000A amp, Arcam CD92 CD player, Tannoy DC2000 speakers and a Systemdek IIX900 record deck. As vinyl doesn't get played as much as CD's I thought the deck could wait until last. It'll probably have to be one item every 6 - 12 month but which would you advise looking at first?

I was thinking up to £1000 on each item. My thoughts were start with the amp? I considered the Naim Nait 5i but no phono stage so I guess that's out. I've heard good things about the Roksan candy K2 ( I currently bi-wire my Tannoys but i see this amp only has one set of speaker connections) and Cyrus was another option.

Any other suggestion's would be appreciated or perhaps you may think starting with the Cd player or speakers might be better? Also with the £1000 budget on each item will I get decent upgrades from my current system?

Thanks in anticipation of your advice.

I would strongly suggest auditioning the ADM40's from AVi HiFi. Short of a lottery win I am not planning to make anymore changes in my little musical world for the foreseeable future.