Tube/Valve amplifiers pros and cons

[BigH]

I think the closest I can describe the difference between Valve Amps and SS Amps, in my experience, is that Valves get much closer to producing 'Music' versus SS Amps which more accurately produce 'Sound'.

It really is down to which type of sound you like. Most Valve Amps are, it's true, less in control of bass compared to SS Amps, but vocals and acoustic instruments through a Valve Amp can have the power to raise the hair on the back of your neck, bring tears to your eyes and a lump in your throat.

I also find a good Valve Amp never makes you wince at the sound and involves you to the extent that you forget that you're listening to equipment rather than music.

Quite often, even when it's way past bedtime, I find it difficult to turn the music off.

Yes but you don't need valves or tubes to do that either.

 

[CnoEvil]

Yes but you don't need valves or tubes to do that either.

....you obviously haven't had the Epiphany yet.

 

[Helmut80]

Find a synergistic pairing of a valve pre and beefy SS monos, and there'll be nothing that combo can't conquer.

 

[davedotco]

Find a synergistic pairing of a valve pre and beefy SS monos, and there'll be nothing that combo can't conquer.

Tried that route on a number of occasions, never really worked for me, worst of both worlds I found....... :?

Strangely I find the hybrid Croft integrated the best amplifier under £1k. Go figure (as the septics would say).

 

[Covenanter]

I did my degree from 1968 to 1971 and in the first year we did little else on the circuits side except valves and we built valve amplifiers for fun. The following year we did transistors and built transistor amplifiers.

We did lots of comparative testing (for fun) and there were people who liked the sound of valves and people who liked the sound of transistors. (It was complicated by the old class A / class B controversy too.) I was a transistor man.

People often described the valve sound as "warm" (which I think is like CNo's "liquid") but to me it is fuzzy. People often described the transistor sound as harsh but to me it is accurate. The truth is that both types of amplifier introduce distortion to the signal and it largely comes down to what type of distortion you prefer.

So the only way to find out which you prefer is to listen!

Chris

If you haven't heard a decent Valve amp since your home-made versions of over 40 years ago, you might just be surprised by what certain brands now sound like.....and it certainly needn't be fuzzy.

In my description, "warm" refers to the bass, and "liquid" refers mostly to the mid-range.

They weren't "home-made"! They were made by people (not me) who went on to become some of the top electronic engineers in the UK.

Chris

 

[RLCCM]

Oh I am such a complete convert to Valve's... I've heard two valve amps, and both to me sounded completely wonderful in comparison to the transistors I have heard. Nothing you can instantly put a finger on but for some unpinpointable feel that they give to the music. It's exactly what I pushed my old Big Bands for... you could play the notes perfectly, and get a band to play in perfect timing - in fact many bands would, yet few of those would ever get a cheering ovation in a jazz club, or get people off their feet - they would achieve at best generously polite applause. Music has to have soul, in jazz terms we call it "swing". A band that swings, even if less accurate in reproducing the dots on the pages as a whole, simply sounds better.

The transistor amp plays the dots on the page, perfectly. The Valve amp misses the odd accent, but it swings!!

To be fair, I've heard just one transistor amp that compares more or less as well to the valves, which is my parents 1972 Luxman unit. But that is also paired to a pair of rather excellent and similarly aged Tandberg speakers (that I think would be rather a struggle to match today - and I have already claimed as my inheritance!).

 

[CnoEvil]

They weren't "home-made"! They were made by people (not me) who went on to become some of the top electronic engineers in the UK.....

Chris

......I assume that was before they were qualified; and if any of them went on to design Valve amps, presumably they discovered how to design the fuzziness out of them. :shifty:

 

[RLCCM]

Music has to have soul, in jazz terms we call it "swing". A band that swings, even if less accurate in reproducing the dots on the pages as a whole, simply sounds better.

Just to add to this to bring myself more precisely on topic, this is how I feel about the comparison and pro's/con's between the two types. I rather prefer the life to the overall accuracy, and the above is the closest I have been able to think of between the valves and transistors, and for that difference am just fine to put up with the intricacies of the older technology. I'll point out though - its also a very music specific opinion. I daresay for pop and more modern musics the transistors will win out.

 

[matt49]

An interesting discussion, but I have two problems with it:

1. the categories 'valve' and 'transistor' represent two different technologies, but there are also other categories of technology -- e.g. single-ended vs push-pull, Class A vs Class A/B -- which can make a significant difference and which to some extent cut across the valve vs transistor dichotomy. In other words, 'valve vs transistor' is a rather crude simplification.

2. much of the descriptive language used here is unhelpful: e.g. 'music' vs 'sound', 'life' vs 'accuracy'. Actually to call the terms 'descriptive' is to give them far too much credit: they doesn't describe anything at all. All these words say is 'I like this' or 'I don't like this'.

But having got this off my chest, I'm interested to hear more.

:santa:

Matt

 

[FennerMachine]

I've owned first 3, demoed the others:

Denon, Cyrus, Quad, Linn, Roksan, Marantz, Nad, Arcam, Denson, Meridian. Others I can't remember. All solid state.

Looked for 'something' and none of these had 'it'.

I think the Icon Audio Stereo 40 KT88 has whatever 'it' is.

So, I now need to demo KT88 with my Quad 21L2's to make sure it works with them or find a valve amp that does. Or also get the Icon Audio speakers or others speakers that work well with a nice valve amp.

 

[RLCCM]

I've owned first 3, demoed the others:

Denon, Cyrus, Quad, Linn, Roksan, Marantz, Nad, Arcam, Denson, Meridian. Others I can't remember. All solid state.

Looked for 'something' and none of these had 'it'.

I think the Icon Audio Stereo 40 KT88 has whatever 'it' is.

So, I now need to demo KT88 with my Quad 21L2's to make sure it works with them or find a valve amp that does. Or also get the Icon Audio speakers or others speakers that work well with a nice valve amp.

"ditto" with the ST40, or the JoLida I also tested.

 

[pyrrhon]

My experience started with a mp 301 tube amp last week and Im already hooked. Not only does it sounds very good I also really enjoy tubes swapping. I have a class D and class A amp too and like their sound but they are just boring to me cause there is nothing to do with them other then turn them on. The thing is there are so many kinds of tubes that it seems logical to start small and see what you like. For exemple I quicky found out I much prefer 6L6 to EL34 and now ordered some KT66 and 5881 to continue explore. Once I get the types for my tastes Ill just get some high quality ones. If there is a party at home Ill definitively use my 275bee but for my personal hobby pleasure I think Ill be nearby my little tube amp for a while.

 

[CnoEvil]

I have a class D and class A amp too....

What Class A amp do you have?

 

[CJSF]

My experience started with a mp 301 tube amp last week and Im already hooked. Not only does it sounds very good I also really enjoy tubes swapping. I have a class D and class A amp too and like their sound but they are just boring to me cause there is nothing to do with them other then turn them on. The thing is there are so many kinds of tubes that it seems logical to start small and see what you like. For exemple I quicky found out I much prefer 6L6 to EL34 and now ordered some KT66 and 5881 to continue explore. Once I get the types for my tastes Ill just get some high quality ones. If there is a party at home Ill definitively use my 275bee but for my personal hobby pleasure I think Ill be nearby my little tube amp for a while.

Pyrrhon, you are very right that valve types all sound different, but so do different brands of the same type. I discovered that just because valve 'a' costs a lot more than valve 'b' of the same type, it does not necessarily sound better in your system or to your ears, an expensive trap I almost fell into, nearly paid close to £100 per KT88 at one point . . . My Sovtek's cost £23 each and sound at least as good, if not better . . .

Personally, I have found I prefer Russian valves over Chinese types, also it appears the Russian valves are not hyped up and loaded with a fancy price tag. My ST40 uses Russian tubes in seven out of the eight, the rectifier valve being the only one that is different, 'used old stock', it comes out of a B29 bomber and cost £20, the other valves are new and cost between £3 and £23 each. I am very happy with my 'down to earth' Russian sound . . . :beer:

CJSF

 

[plastic penguin]

I've owned first 3, demoed the others:

Denon, Cyrus, Quad, Linn, Roksan, Marantz, Nad, Arcam, Denson, Meridian. Others I can't remember. All solid state.

Looked for 'something' and none of these had 'it'.

I think the Icon Audio Stereo 40 KT88 has whatever 'it' is.

So, I now need to demo KT88 with my Quad 21L2's to make sure it works with them or find a valve amp that does. Or also get the Icon Audio speakers or others speakers that work well with a nice valve amp.

Obv your not sure what that "something" is, so perhaps that "something" doesn't exist unless you can dramatically 'up' your budget. Given you've had your current set-up for some time now, I'm wondering why (what appears to be) there's sudden sea change?

I think managing expectations can the audiophiles biggest enemy.

 

[FennerMachine]

Good points and question PP.

The sudden change is that I've got a bit of money coming my way next year and decided I'll spend some on higher end speakers. Not really a sudden change as I've always wanted some higher end speakers even before getting the Mission 782's around 10 years ago. I should have done more demoing back then but you live and learn! That's why I'm taking my time, doing more demo's and trying to listen to advice from various sources. After multiple demo's the evidence is pointing to a change of amp likely being a better option. From some owner reviews of the Quad 21L2's I should get a bigger improve with a better amp than I will with better speakers for Quad 44/303.

 

[FennerMachine]

I have different advice from different dealers. I'm not saying who they are.

1 thinks the Quad 21L2's have great potential and will benefit from better amplification.

2 says I need to look at the system as a whole, possibly amps and speakers, although try to get amps that work better with 21L2's first.

3 did not indicate either way, just said various amps will drive the 21L2's well.

4 says I would be better upgrading my speakers first as he's not a fan of the Quad speakers I have.

5 a friend who was a dealer hinted that I should change amps.

6 also thinks better speakers would be a good idea before changing amps.

3 out of 6 indicate that better amps will get more from the Quad 21L2's

2 out of 6 in favour of upgrading speakers first

1 out of 6 thinks maybe look at the system as a whole

2 dealers of Icon Audio amps say they will work well with my Quad speakers.

 

[RLCCM]

Funny how Cno seems to say things that either make perfect sense or follow the exact logic I have been thinking, but not quite experienced enough to follow. In this case as it happens, i've today done exactly what he said, and bought my amp (and cd player). I found a riotously cheap Icon Audio Stereo 60... at a price J couldnt resist (about £1650) so bought it. I was hoping to compare it to Prima Luna or even the stereo 40, but wasnt able to. I hope I haven't pulled the trigger too quickly, as the only other brand i've heard is JoLida (which remains to this day my most excitung sound test ever - simply as it was the first time i was wowed by tubes - though impossible to tell now if the icon suits me better than the jolida honestly). But to get fair tests of different valve amps next to each other, in this price bracket, i think is impossible.

 

[CnoEvil]

- Any advice based on personal taste, though interesting, may have little relevance to you.

- There is nothing wrong with looking at the system as a whole, but it can still be done in stages, which allows you to get used to any change.

- A change of amp is the only way to get "that tube sound", so should be your priority if that is what you want.

- Almost all speakers will sound better with a more competent amp.

- Your system can be made sound very different by your selection of speakers.

FWIW. My advice is to get your Valve amp first, and if it's the Icon Audio, it should drive your speakers. Though saying that, you should probably try and hear a Sugden A21, in case that would be suitable.

Then live with your system for a while before changing speakers. Use your demo time to hear as many speakers as possible, in order to give direction at a later date.

 

[CnoEvil]

Funny how Cno seems to say things that either make perfect sense or follow the exact logic I have been thinking, but not quite experienced enough to follow. In this case as it happens, i've today done exactly what he said, and bought my amp (and cd player). I found a riotously cheap Icon Audio Stereo 60... at a price J couldnt resist (about £1650) so bought it. I was hoping to compare it to Prima Luna or even the stereo 40, but wasnt able to. I hope I haven't pulled the trigger too quickly, as the only other brand i've heard is JoLida (which remains to this day my most excitung sound test ever - simply as it was the first time i was wowed by tubes - though impossible to tell now if the icon suits me better than the jolida honestly). But to get fair tests of different valve amps next to each other, in this price bracket, i think is impossible.

Good Man!

The more powerful amp should work with a larger range of speakers. :bounce:

 

[FennerMachine]

Apart from being more powerful what benefits would the Stereo 60 give over the Stereo 40 KT88?

Icon Audio said that unless someone needs more power the KT88 will be good enough and should be enough power for the Quad 21L2's.

Going to try to take my speakers to them at the end of January to hear what they are like together.

In the mean time I'm demoing Focal this week. January demoing some Arcam amps with Quad 11L speakers at a localish dealer who stock Quad and Arcam and thinks they work well together. Might go to another dealer to demo Roksan amps with Quad 23L speakers. I know these speakers are not the same as mine but it should give an idea of what mine can sound like as they are from the same range.

My gut feeling is I'm going to get an Icon Audio amp.

 

[matt49]

My gut feeling is I'm going to get an Icon Audio amp.

I second Cno's suggestion that you should try a Sugden A21a first. If it doesn't give you what you want, it will still have been worthwhile, in that you'll be even more confident that your gut instinct's right.

:santa:

Matt

 

[RLCCM]

Well my thought on the differences between Icon audio amps is as follows. The Stereo 40 was significantly better than the stereo 25 when i tested them together. The stereo 40 had more control and a bit more punch to the sound, added guts from the extra power basically. I was quite happy with the stereo 40 test, and would have bought it. That dealer said to me the stereo 60 would be the same impact again. That said honestly now I have a stereo 60, which i only bought due to it being of stereo 40 price, i dont think the difference is all that great, though its extremely difficult to tell (because i havent compared them side by side or even with remotely similar equipment). I dont yet have matching speakers, so am only playing at home on a pair of KEF kht2005 eggs, which as small speakers in a big room, are quite out of their depth. But i've already noticed that they have never felt quite so alive as they do with this amp. Still am not truly seeing the benefit yet, until i get proper speakers.

 

[FennerMachine]

A more powerful well designed amp should have better control than a less powerful amp.

Where do you draw the line though? They also do separate pre and mono power amps!

At the price you paid it would have been silly not to buy it though. Nice one!

At a difference of £700 (£1700 to £2400) I'm not sure if I could justify the ST60 with my Quad speakers.

On the other hand the ST60 might be much better that the ST40 with my speakers then I can forget about upgrading (for a while).