Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

[BigColz]

can anybody tell me where in the real world, outside your hi-fi set up that is, can I experience bass that I can also feel?

You can feel the bass from a kick drum when you listen to a band playing live in a small venue.

Yep, go to any rock or pop gig in a small indoor venue, or stand near the front in a large venue and you'll get bass that you can feel when the drummer or drum machine or bass guitarist is playing.

I can't believe this is even being questioned.. When we were young my friend had 2 x 12'' subs in hs mk3 golf and when playin smack my b*tch up or bass test CD it was so powerfull the roof and rear 3/4 used too vibrate over a cmand would hurt your fingers to rest on the panel. Also it would be physically hard to breath as it was vibrating your diaphram so much. Aside from that pretty much every small venue gig (punk rock/hardcore etc) i've been to whre they mic up the kick drum and bass amp you can feel every pluck or kick.. Thats the reason I love it as it makes you 'feel' the music.. Plus have you never heard of 'brown noise' :rofl:

As for TL etc does anyone know if my Pro-acs are TL or BR? I know a lot of Pro acs are but can't seem to find info on mine.. It says on the stats and in reviews they go lower than pretty much any other standmount at 30hz.. (i'm not saying they do i'm sure theres plenty tat go lower) Once I sort out my interconnects to smooth out/bring out more bass it should sound fantastic Can't wait!

Nice topic Cno very interesting read

 

[CnoEvil]

Nice topic Cno very interesting read

Thank you.

It's a pity that none of the speaker makers on here have seen this and given informed comment.

 

[BigColz]

Nice topic Cno very interesting read

Thank you.

It's a pity that none of the speaker makers on here have seen this and given informed comment.

Yeah be good to hear Kefs story as they are probably the most advanced technilogically and obviously swear by bass Reflex.. The devopment of the LS50 video impressed me.. To be honest I get the feeling that once you go over a certain size/amount of drivers (like yours) it prob doesn't make much difference.. I think TL is more to get the most/accuracy out of moniter/2 ways.. Also be interesting to hear ATC's sealed opinion vs PMC TL for accuracy as they both claim to bet 'the best/most accurate monitor company'

 

[DocG]

Borderline off topic, I know, but anyway... Anyone ever heard these? It's Ear's Primary Drive loudspeakers (http://www.ear-yoshino.com/products.php?catId=6). Looks a little like the Jamo R909, with its open baffle design.

 

[CnoEvil]

Borderline off topic, I know, but anyway... Anyone ever heard these? It's Ear's Primary Drive loudspeakers (http://www.ear-yoshino.com/products.php?catId=6). Looks a little like the Jamo R909, with its open baffle design.

Yup, a cross between that and an iPod with camera.....bet they sound good though.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

can anybody tell me where in the real world, outside your hi-fi set up that is, can I experience bass that I can also feel?

You can feel the bass from a kick drum when you listen to a band playing live in a small venue.

Yep, go to any rock or pop gig in a small indoor venue, or stand near the front in a large venue and you'll get bass that you can feel when the drummer or drum machine or bass guitarist is playing.

natural source of sound. this is my point all the way that amplified sound through speakers does what natural sources don't.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

can anybody tell me where in the real world, outside your hi-fi set up that is, can I experience bass that I can also feel?

You can feel the bass from a kick drum when you listen to a band playing live in a small venue.

Yep, go to any rock or pop gig in a small indoor venue, or stand near the front in a large venue and you'll get bass that you can feel when the drummer or drum machine or bass guitarist is playing.

I can't believe this is even being questioned.. When we were young my friend had 2 x 12'' subs in hs mk3 golf and when playin smack my b*tch up or bass test CD it was so powerfull the roof and rear 3/4 used too vibrate over a cmand would hurt your fingers to rest on the panel. Also it would be physically hard to breath as it was vibrating your diaphram so much. Aside from that pretty much every small venue gig (punk rock/hardcore etc) i've been to whre they mic up the kick drum and bass amp you can feel every pluck or kick.. Thats the reason I love it as it makes you 'feel' the music.. Plus have you never heard of 'brown noise' :rofl:

As for TL etc does anyone know if my Pro-acs are TL or BR? I know a lot of Pro acs are but can't seem to find info on mine.. It says on the stats and in reviews they go lower than pretty much any other standmount at 30hz.. (i'm not saying they do i'm sure theres plenty tat go lower) Once I sort out my interconnects to smooth out/bring out more bass it should sound fantastic Can't wait!

Nice topic Cno very interesting read

another one that can't read or don't understand what's written. natural sound sources. this is my point that speakers do excite the body.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Borderline off topic, I know, but anyway... Anyone ever heard these? It's Ear's Primary Drive loudspeakers (http://www.ear-yoshino.com/products.php?catId=6). Looks a little like the Jamo R909, with its open baffle design.

I was actually considering those speakers for a while... who knows, maybe if I had a chance to audition? they say Tim does not BS you. if he brands something with his name it has to be a least good.

 

[lindsayt]

can anybody tell me where in the real world, outside your hi-fi set up that is, can I experience bass that I can also feel?

You can feel the bass from a kick drum when you listen to a band playing live in a small venue.

Yep, go to any rock or pop gig in a small indoor venue, or stand near the front in a large venue and you'll get bass that you can feel when the drummer or drum machine or bass guitarist is playing.

natural source of sound. this is my point all the way that amplified sound through speakers does what natural sources don't.

Oh, I understand now. Yes I did totally miss your point.

But seeing as 90% of the music I listen to at home is rock and pop, and seeing as I get most enjoyment when the reproduction sounds like a live event - except quieter - I couldn't give two stuffs whether any natural sources of sound produce the sort of pressure waves that you get from PA systems and good hi-fi systems.

 

[pauln]

Sound from a speaker is just a pressure wave the same as a naturally produced sound is, surely?

Interesting read here: http://www.omnisonic.com/bbillings.html

 

[Electro]

I don't know if anyone read the link in my last post

But here is the most relevant section .

Glennie may be one of the best listeners in the world, because she has had to develop the listening abilities of her entire body. Since the age of 12, she has been profoundly deaf, which means her ears deliver only a fraction of the sound vibrations that she picks up most vividly through her feet, hands, chest and whatever else in her frame responds to the vibrations from her various instruments.

"The body's like a huge ear," she says. "It's as simple as that."

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I don't know if anyone read the link in my last post

But here is the most relevant section .

Glennie may be one of the best listeners in the world, because she has had to develop the listening abilities of her entire body. Since the age of 12, she has been profoundly deaf, which means her ears deliver only a fraction of the sound vibrations that she picks up most vividly through her feet, hands, chest and whatever else in her frame responds to the vibrations from her various instruments.

"The body's like a huge ear," she says. "It's as simple as that."

I red this one and I thought it must be working for her. I mean, she's incapacitated hearing so she developed bypassing mechanism that enables her to exist. it's just like with blind people who can move around with uncanny precision. but that does not mean blind "see" better. and I also hope you're not trying to say that the body is as sensitive receiver of sound waves as the eardrum and following bones? I beg to differ on that one. I wonder how can she feel sounds nearing 0dB which is the threshold of human hearing...

I can also appreciate the fact that she may feel sounds as she can't hear them. as I said above human body will create a bypass mechanism if one means to gauge the environment becomes defunct. but I believe in normal, hearing humans this kind of mechanism is rather inexistent.

 

[shafesk]

I think its how the manufacturer selects drivers to match the port design or how ports are matched to the bass drivers that really matters. My experience varies a lot but I will mainly share my experience on reflex ports. I love Mordaunt Short's tight bass signature (having owned 902is and the Mezzo 6's), the Mezzos never boom and they have ports at the front and back. I love Dynaudio's bass from the DM 2/7 and they would be the bookshelves I would happily settle down with in my medium sized room but they are rear ported and tend to boom in corners. I can't remember hearing many modern speakers with sealed boxes but almost every sealed sub I've heard sounded good. I think that rear ports probably give the most bass, not necessarily the best bass and are trickier to position. Whenever I hear speakers with 2 ports or more they tend to have better defined bass.

 

[BenLaw]

I don't know if anyone read the link in my last post

But here is the most relevant section .

Glennie may be one of the best listeners in the world, because she has had to develop the listening abilities of her entire body. Since the age of 12, she has been profoundly deaf, which means her ears deliver only a fraction of the sound vibrations that she picks up most vividly through her feet, hands, chest and whatever else in her frame responds to the vibrations from her various instruments.

"The body's like a huge ear," she says. "It's as simple as that."

If you've not watched the film It's All Gone Pete Tong, you really should.

 

[Electro]

I don't know if anyone read the link in my last post

But here is the most relevant section .

Glennie may be one of the best listeners in the world, because she has had to develop the listening abilities of her entire body. Since the age of 12, she has been profoundly deaf, which means her ears deliver only a fraction of the sound vibrations that she picks up most vividly through her feet, hands, chest and whatever else in her frame responds to the vibrations from her various instruments.

"The body's like a huge ear," she says. "It's as simple as that."

If you've not watched the film It's All Gone Pete Tong, you really should.

I haven't seen it but I will watch it

Thanks for the recommendation it looks like it's a very moving story told in a light hearted manner judging from the brief description I just read .

 

[BenLaw]

Light hearted is a good description! Actually at time's it's pretty intense, bizarre at other times but it does have a powerful story at its heart and is also excellent if you like dance music. The Ibiza club scenes are probably the best around

 

[SteveR750]

Transmission Line vs Reflex Ported vs Isobaric

none of the above.

I appreciate everybody's input, but almost all the answers are for a question I haven't asked.

I'm well aware of the advantages of a sealed cabinet and even Electrostatic/Maggie type panels, but am less sure about the 3 types I've mentioned in the title.....eg. Does the TL type design have a clear advantage, or is a lot of it to do with "marketing mystique".

Don't mean to sound ungrateful for input so far

Cno

In my opinion and based only on many years of listening to different types of speaker I would say that all different designs and types of speaker have their individual strengths and weaknesses but ultimately I have chosen speakers using PMC's version of a transmission line as the best all round compromise that suits my idea of what a HiFi system should do .

I think this is because they seem to produce the most life like deep textured bass with real pitch accuracy that does not overwhelm the rest of the music and you can also feel it as well as hear it.

Bass instruments sound like they are part of the music contained within a large sound stage and can be identified in the same way as all the other instruments with their own individual character and separate space much more like real bass instruments playing as part of a real live performance .

When listening to a well recorded piece of music especially a good live recording this real depth and cleanliness in the bass frequencies seems to free up the mid and top frequencies to create a wonderful deep and wide stage behind the speakers that can often appear to be many meters deep and wide , the wall behind the speakers disappears completely and the bass instruments are an equally identifiable part of the illusion in their own space and in proportion to the rest of the instruments .

So in my opinion modern transmission line speakers do have a real and clear advantage , but I am sure many others will disagree.

I am sorry that I can't give you a more technical explanation but I have done my best to explain what my transmission line speakers do for me that other types of speaker don't seem to be able to .

+1 for feeling live music, and the the expansion to a recorded track that deep bass brings.

I've jumped from page 2 to here sorry, but in my impatience to answer this:

you see, the difference between me and you is that in such a case I hear the roar of a jet engine flying up above me and I don't dilusion myself that I'm feeling something.

[quote/]

Most of what you "hear" below 100Hz or so is via your body structure resonating, and not "direct" pressure waves into the cochlea. You have only to try wearing in ear headphones to figure out what the skeleton does for sound perception. If you're in doubt, take a trek to next years download festival or similar. Believe me, I can't really "hear" as in distinguish what ACDC have ever played live other than a distorted slightly harmonic white noise in my ears, but I can sure tell what the drummer was doing all the way through. Via my chest.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I've jumped from page 2 to here sorry, but in my impatience to answer this:

you see, the difference between me and you is that in such a case I hear the roar of a jet engine flying up above me and I don't dilusion myself that I'm feeling something.

[quote/]

Most of what you "hear" below 100Hz or so is via your body structure resonating, and not "direct" pressure waves into the cochlea. You have only to try wearing in ear headphones to figure out what the skeleton does for sound perception. If you're in doubt, take a trek to next years download festival or similar. Believe me, I can't really "hear" as in distinguish what ACDC have ever played live other than a distorted slightly harmonic white noise in my ears, but I can sure tell what the drummer was doing all the way through. Via my chest.

oh man... you shouldn't have jumped from page 2. what you're writing here is exactly what was my point. you go to an amplified ACDC concert - you feel percussion thumping in your chest. you go to an unamplified philharmonic concert - and you can't feel tympani thumping in your chest. meaning - speakers distort the way the sound is reproduced. however, I appreciate that many may enjoy this kind of coloration.

it's a good thing you bring up headphones because for me headphones present bass notes in a much more convincing, lifelike way than most speakers.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Most of what you "hear" below 100Hz or so is via your body structure resonating, and not "direct" pressure waves into the cochlea.

BTW this statement is rubbish. there are hair receptors of sound waves in our ears down to ca.20Hz. if it wasn't so you wouldn't be able to hear any deep bass through headphones.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10152978399725689]

Having grown up with a Linn analoge vinyl system and now downgraded to a Linn Kiko aktiv system, my brother has a TDL transmission line top of the range set up with an Aragon pre and power combination. Compared to my mates active Linn Naim six pack isobarik set up... NO CONTEST!!!

Linn were great in their day, 30 years ago... My brothers system just plays music as it should and just sings!!! Where that DEEP bass comes from?... SO much better than Isobariks! Listen before you buy, as always! M xx

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Malcolm and welcome to the forum. I hope you stick around and share your experiences.

I also had a Linn/Naim system, then moved to a Linn Karik/Numerik + Kairn/LK100.

I have a lot of time for the Linn DS as a source, but not so much for their amps or speakers....though I have enjoyed the Sneaky and Majik DSM with Kef R Series/LS50s as a versatile hub for music and TV.

Anyway, welcome aboard.

 

[plastic penguin]

Having grown up with a Linn analoge vinyl system and now downgraded to a Linn Kiko aktiv system, my brother has a TDL transmission line top of the range set up with an Aragon pre and power combination. Compared to my mates active Linn Naim six pack isobarik set up... NO CONTEST!!!

Linn were great in their day, 30 years ago... My brothers system just plays music as it should and just sings!!! Where that DEEP bass comes from?... SO much better than Isobariks! Listen before you buy, as always! M xx

Welcome also.

Holy hi-fi, where did you find this old relic? (sorry Cno, this thread is so old it has grown a beard)

 

[CnoEvil]

Holy hi-fi, where did you find this old relic? (sorry Cno, this thread is so old it has grown a beard)

Luckily I have some of Vlad's Beard Oil.

 

[Rethep]

you go to an amplified ACDC concert - you feel percussion thumping in your chest. you go to an unamplified philharmonic concert - and you can't feel tympani thumping in your chest. meaning - speakers distort the way the sound is reproduced. however, I appreciate that many may enjoy this kind of coloration.

That's true, but that is because of timpani don't really thump! It is only the bass drum (a real classical orchestra-instrument) that thumps. So the comparison that you talk about is wrong.

But you are right that the amplified AC/DC-concert is full of unnaturally amplified bass-drum. And the speakers add their amount of distortion too (about 2 %, i'm told)

it's a good thing you bring up headphones because for me headphones present bass notes in a much more convincing, lifelike way than most speakers.

Headphones give a more precise sound and their bass is more natural too.

To add to this thread: my speakers (see below) are called infinite baffle. There is no port, but a bigeer opening to the back. They give a wonderful free, open, spacious sound. I have a tube-amp on them which together gives magic. They are only ill-advised if you like AC/DC etc. etc. ;-)

 

[DocG]

you go to an amplified ACDC concert - you feel percussion thumping in your chest. you go to an unamplified philharmonic concert - and you can't feel tympani thumping in your chest. meaning - speakers distort the way the sound is reproduced. however, I appreciate that many may enjoy this kind of coloration.

That's true, but that is because of timpani don't really thump! It is only the bass drum (a real classical orchestra-instrument) that thumps. So the comparison that you talk about is wrong.

But you are right that the amplified AC/DC-concert is full of unnaturally amplified bass-drum. And the speakers add their amount of distortion too (about 2 %, i'm told)

it's a good thing you bring up headphones because for me headphones present bass notes in a much more convincing, lifelike way than most speakers.

Headphones give a more precise sound and their bass is more natural too.

To add to this thread: my speakers (see below) are called infinite baffle. There is no port, but a bigeer opening to the back. They give a wonderful free, open, spacious sound. I have a tube-amp on them which together gives magic. They are only ill-advised if you like AC/DC etc. etc. ;-)

IIRC the Peitho is open baffle, not infinite baffle. A 'real' IB speaker is built flush into the wall, so the 'baffle' consists of the walls/floor/ceiling of the room, and the 'cabinet' is very large (for example a garage, next to the listening room). Most often used for subwoofers. The term is also used as a synonym for a sealed speaker.

I miss Oldric here, btw. Thanks for quoting him!