Tone controls set at MAX!

[admin_exported]

I have an old Technincs amp with wharfedale 10.1s.

Im new to hi fi and I read somewhere that people doesnt use their tone controls at this forum.
Well... I have my bass and treble at maximum level!

Yesterday I tried an old NAD 314 to my speakers and again prefered the sound on tone controls: full effect!
Well okay.. I tamed the bass a little, think it was at 3 o clock.

Does that make me different from this community or what does this mean? haha

 

[Andrew Everard]

 

[Anonymous]

say what?

 

[grdunn123]

Surferpat, if you like the sound with the tone controls set where you have them then no problem. There is a school of thought which says that tone controls colour the sound and that, if you're searching for hi-fi sound, then bypassing the tone controls is recommended. If you don't have a tone bypass or defeat button then it doesn't really matter where you set the tone controls to.

 

[Messiah]

What matters is that it sounds good to you. That's it. Simples!

 

[plastic penguin]

There's no rule that says you should or should not have it at full tilt - or anywhere, for that matter.

I personally used to have my Arcams set at half.... both treble and bass. To me, it gave a more convincing sound than activating the 'defeat' button.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Except that tone controls, especially on an old Technics amp, tend to introduce more distortion the more they're wound on.

 

[plastic penguin]

Andrew Everard:Except that tone controls, especially on an old Technics amp, tend to introduce more distortion the more they're wound on.

Idling levels sound fine though. In a way, this is where the old 'loudness' buttons were so good. After around eight or nine 'O' clock on the volume control then it cut out.

 

[Anonymous]

With tone defeat on everything sounds plain with no punch, warmness or feeling at all. Its lika a carpet (no dynamics) in my ears.

I guess I prefer more attack.

 

[jaxwired]

surferpat:

I have an old Technincs amp with wharfedale 10.1s.

Im new to hi fi and I read somewhere that people doesnt use their tone controls at this forum.
Well... I have my bass and treble at maximum level!

Yesterday I tried an old NAD 314 to my speakers and again prefered the sound on tone controls: full effect!
Well okay.. I tamed the bass a little, think it was at 3 o clock.

Does that make me different from this community or what does this mean? haha

Most hifi junkees are attempting to have music in their home that sounds as close to the live artists as possible. Meaning the instruments and the voices sound as realistic as possible when played back on our hifi systems. So, for instance, a violin or drum played backed on our hifi sounds very much like a real violin or drum. By wildly adjusting your tone controls, you introduce distortion. The original sound that was recorded is played back in a distorted way that sounds less like the original instruments. Also, the additional circuitry required to add the "tone" adjustments adds noise to the signal further reducing the realism of the sound.

Now, with all that said, I agree with the others, if you're digging it, then have fun and enjoy. Why not. That's why we buy music and hifi systems, for enjoyment. You're enjoying yourself so that's great. For many of us, we find that the enjoyment increases as the sound becomes more realistic, not less, which is why most of us use tone controls sparingly or not at all.

 

[Anonymous]

But the thing is, the instruments sounds alot more alive and realistic on my amp when tone controls are maxed as the "defeat" makes everything plain, not like the real thing irl.

Then again, I listen alot to pop and house music. Not so much classical.

 

[plastic penguin]

It's a strange one: When I switched to the Leema from the Arcam, and although the Leema doesn't have tone controls, I still wanted the tone controls... after a few days it all made sense. Oddly enough, the Leema has far superior bass definition and bigger PUNCH than the Arc, it took a while to adjust.

As Jaxwired touched on, I found more accuracy and detail... but as with all things in life, there is a trade-off: In my case a smidgen of intimacy. However, after a few more days all the minor concerns paled in insignificance. It may be worthwhile just reducing the bass and treble for a few days and see what you make of it then. Otherwise, as previously mentioned, just enjoy the music.

 

[Anonymous]

Really all you are doing is what the majority of CD/LP mastering engineers are doing nowadays - boosting the treble and bass to make it sound more immediate and attention grabbing.

Liken it to fine wine - humour me for a minute - say for example you start off not very fond of wine. So your early experiences of wine are drinking 'spritzers'. Adding soda-water makes it a refreshing invigorating drink and seemingly more palatable, but tramples all over the subtle flavours of the wine - and is not how the producer intended you to experience it. So, having become accustomed to spritzers, you try it without the soda-water, but now without the sparkle it seems flat and lifeless. However, you are now tasting what the producer intended and with a little practice you start picking out and enjoying the pleasing tastes not noticed before. Eventually you find yourself wondering why you ever used to drink spritzers.

Yes it's the wee small hours of the morning - where'd I put that glasshh.

What you may find is that if you do a prolonged listening session with the dials set neutral, it may sound dull initially, but not so after a short while. Similarly with the dials set all the way up you may find it sounds engaging and "real" to start off with, but after a while it becomes fatiguing and you just want to turn it off and do something else.

Importantly you know what you like, so do what you prefer.

 

[Anonymous]

Another question.

May it be that older amps need more tone control than newer ones?
In other words, new amps sounds better without tone control than older and therefore the tone control is not as needed nowadays.

 

[plastic penguin]

surferpat:

Another question.

May it be that older amps need more tone control than newer ones?
In other words, new amps sounds better without tone control than older and therefore the tone control is not as needed nowadays.

At a guess, no. If you look at the bulk of new budget amps, Rotel, Arcam, Marantz, Cambridge, Nad.... all have tone controls and/or defeat modes.

 

[Anonymous]

surferpat:
Another question.

May it be that older amps need more tone control than newer ones?
In other words, new amps sounds better without tone control than older and therefore the tone control is not as needed nowadays.

Nah, it's just that there is an academic train of thought (based on good theory) that the additional bits in the way of the signal path (e.g. extra knobs, switches and soldering) are all thing that will degrade the electrical signal, thereby reducing the sound quality.

In practice however the introduction of tone controls may have zero 'noticeable' degradation of sound quality. In fact for many they can bring more benefit than dis-benefit. However, once the theory was out amongst the people it got taken out of proportion and the masses started looking down upon anything with tone controls as bad.

Tl;dr - Not having tone controls was/is a fad.

 

[Anonymous]

Manassas:
Really all you are doing is what the majority of CD/LP mastering engineers are doing nowadays - boosting the treble and bass to make it sound more immediate and attention grabbing.

Liken it to fine wine - humour me for a minute - say for example you start off not very fond of wine. So your early experiences of wine are drinking 'spritzers'. Adding soda-water makes it a refreshing invigorating drink and seemingly more palatable, but tramples all over the subtle flavours of the wine - and is not how the producer intended you to experience it. So, having become accustomed to spritzers, you try it without the soda-water, but now without the sparkle it seems flat and lifeless. However, you are now tasting what the producer intended and with a little practice you start picking out and enjoying the pleasing tastes not noticed before. Eventually you find yourself wondering why you ever used to drink spritzers.

Yes it's the wee small hours of the morning - where'd I put that glasshh.

What you may find is that if you do a prolonged listening session with the dials set neutral, it may sound dull initially, but not so after a short while. Similarly with the dials set all the way up you may find it sounds engaging and "real" to start off with, but after a while it becomes fatiguing and you just want to turn it off and do something else.

Importantly you know what you like, so do what you prefer.

Really good explantion. I see the point.

But I think its really strange since instruments and everything gets plenty of EQ effects to get the sound they want. EQs, which is tone controls are essential in music industry. Soo many effects on voice recording and instruments such, plenty of distortion.

Does Hi Fi guys play their electric guitars with no distortion effects and knobs to zero on their fenders?

 

[Anonymous]

You're exactly right - the artist, recording engineer; and mastering engineer should have done the EQ to get it to sound how the artist intended. What many then try to achieve in Hi Fi is to aim to faithfully reproduce that intended sound. The mastering engineer or the listener at home altering the balance can result in not hearing it presented as intended.

However, home listening is not perfect (for example Hi Fi components and room acoustics can add 'colouration' to the sound) + many recordings are not perfect either. So, tone controls can help balance out life's little imperfections.

 

[Frank Harvey]

surferpat:But I think its really strange since instruments and everything gets plenty of EQ effects to get the sound they want. EQs, which is tone controls are essential in music industry. Soo many effects on voice recording and instruments such, plenty of distortion
But they do it to achieve the sound they want to produce - if we want to hear that intended sound in our homes, we're meant to play it 'as is'. Changing it is moving away from what the artist intended.

Having said that, you have that choice. If we all liked to hear the same thing, we'd all buy one brand, but we don't.

 

[Anonymous]

The only thing that worries me now a little is that this should mean that every review of amps and such are with tone defeat.

Since I dont intend to listen to these amps with this setting it could be a problem for me.

Okay, the review still tells me the amp characteristics, if its bright or so... but still

Maybe its not an issue at all, but interesting!

 

[ID.]

surferpat:
Well... I have my bass and treble at maximum level!

Blasphemer!

Nah, whatever floats your boat. If you enjoy it who are we to comment on what kinky and depraved practices you get up to in the privacy of your own home

 

[Anonymous]

This got me thinking of when I some time ago went to my local Hi Fi dealer, listened to B&W 685s. I turned all the knobs to max and the salesman gave me a weird look and actually reminded me "you know that you are using tone controls now?".

I didnt understand the fuzz...

 

[Anonymous]

surferpat:
The only thing that worries me now a little is that this should mean that every review of amps and such are with tone defeat.

Since I dont intend to listen to these amps with this setting it could be a problem for me.

I'm sure reviewers will have wasted away many hours fiddling with the kit they are testing. Magazine reviews should be a guide to help you create a short list of options. If you are looking to buy Hi Fi equipment you should try and audition all those on your shortlist. You can then do what ever you wish with the tone controls settings when auditioning.

surferpat:This got me thinking of when I some time ago went to my local Hi Fi dealer, listened to B&W 685s. I turned all the knobs to max and the salesman gave me a weird look and actually reminded me "you know that you are using tone controls now?".

Some salespeople seem to believe the best way to make a sale is to be condescending and rude (and may not actually know what they're talikng about). Thankfully not all are like that.

Right time for bed for me. Too many spritzers. good night all.

 

[the record spot]

Ultimately, it makes no difference, but (yes...), if it bothers you that your amp is lacking at "neutral" (i.e. with the tone defeat off but the amp's tone controls sitting in their default position), then you could look at different amps that have better bass definition.

As plastic penguin said, the Leema Pulse, as an example, has excellent bass definition, no tone controls, but is none the poorer for it. The trend currently is moving back towards equipping amps with them after a lengthy spell where minimalism was in. Personally, I have no problem with them; my amp is festooned with altering features, but I rarely use them as the sound from the three components is good for me.

And this I think might be your 'problem' - the combination of your current set-up is maybe a little bass light? Or maybe you just enjoy a heavier sound and your current system doesn't give you that. Either way, you could either look into your options if you wanted to make a change - speakers would be my suggestion if they're not going deep enough. Something like the Q Acoustics 2050 might help, but do see if you can hear them first.

 

[Anonymous]

Manassas:

You're exactly right - the artist, recording engineer; and mastering engineer should have done the EQ to get it to sound how the artist intended. What many then try to achieve in Hi Fi is to aim to faithfully reproduce that intended sound. The mastering engineer or the listener at home altering the balance can result in not hearing it presented as intended.

However, home listening is not perfect (for example Hi Fi components and room acoustics can add 'colouration' to the sound) + many recordings are not perfect either. So, tone controls can help balance out life's little imperfections.

Having read throught his thread this morning, I have to agree with the general consensus that there is no right or wrong answer here.

The idea of tone controls in the first place is surely to market a piece of kit to a broader audience as mention by David at Frank Hravey here, as we all have different tastes and preferences, as well as very different room setups and room acoustics as Manassas says above. The conventional thought that simple signal paths are optimum still carries otherwise the manufactureres wouldn't include tone defeat options surely ?!

I have built in adjustability in my CA 640R for bass & treble but rarely touch them to be honest but would suggest each to their own but would also be thinking, as also suggested, that if the sound is lacking in this department so much it may be time to audition a new amplifier to see just what is being missed because the tone controls should not be relied upon to make the sort of differences as has been mentioned, in my humble opinion...