To Avi Hi-Fi

[Anonymous]

I didn't insist on anything I asked and was promised that the test would be with an Apple Computer which I believe Haymarket use. It wasn't. Apple's Front Row and IR handset is a better user interface than a CD player and gives access to your media much more quickly and more elegantly that's all.

The reason I did this was that all the interest from potential customers was from Apple users who'd either sold their old separates or were about to.
It's not about sound quality because the source is always digital, so it won't vary.

I think the problem is that these speakers don't appeal to you and you're looking at them from your perspective rather than that of people who they do appeal to. The whole point of them is get get rid of a load of boxes and combine TV, computing and Media. You're saving, money, space and improving performance and making your room look nicer.

Ash

 

[Alec]

Ashley James:I think the problem is that these speakers don't appeal to you and you're looking at them from your perspective rather than that of people who they do appeal to. The whole point of them is get get rid of a load of boxes and combine TV, computing and Media. You're saving, money, space and improving performance and making your room look nicer.

Ash

Quite wrong i assure you. They appeal hugely to me and ill be auditioning new kit in a few months, including your speakers i hope. i am actually gravitating to them already (exactly because of their convenience) to the point where unless i hear anything clearly better in my price range, ill probably buy them.

you may not have insisted on apple kit (my apologies), but you have certainly expressed preferences for which kit your speakers should be tested with in the past, recently and not so. I consider this extremely strange, and your general fear of a review more so.

 

[plastic penguin]

I would like to add my tuppence worth. I can understand where Hughes is coming from: When I've listened to music via a PC Media Centre, even on cracking speakers, the sound is totally different. To me, the PC music is very, very clinical sounding (IMHO), lacking the sonic integrity you get from a more conventional set-up - it doesn't have 'soul' of the traditional amp and CD player.

In my limited opinion, to dismiss amp/cd combo is foolhardy, especially when Ashley seems to be limiting the choice to what people can purchase. I don't believe that philosophy will work, considering how fragile the market is going to be over the next 18 months or so.

 

[chebby]

plastic penguin: To me, the PC music is very, very clinical sounding (IMHO), lacking the sonic integrity you get from a more conventional set-up - it doesn't have 'soul' of the traditional amp and CD player.

Now where have I heard that before?

Oh, thats right! CD vs Vinyl.

I love it when those 'olde worlde', traditional zeros and ones (with all their warmth and integrity) are compared to the 'nasty', new fangled, computer generated zeros and ones with all their steely harshness and clinical ruthlessness....

I give up.

I must be the weird one. I love the sound of my DAC with iTunes (from a Windows XP laptop, oh the horror!) because it sounds better to me than CD on my system.

I don't really know why and I am ceasing to care the more I read on these forums (especially from the likes of Ashley who could easily have put me off the whole idea of computer based music for life just from what he alone writes!)

I love the sound of my vinyl too.

I have heard lossless music from an iMac sounding pretty awful and I have heard it sounding pretty good. (When testing it via my USB DAC from our own iMac) Guess it means we are all different and have different taste and different ears.

A manufacturer who cannot accept that is doomed ultimately.

 

[Alec]

chebby:plastic penguin: To me, the PC music is very, very clinical sounding (IMHO), lacking the sonic integrity you get from a more conventional set-up - it doesn't have 'soul' of the traditional amp and CD player.

Now where have I heard that before?

Oh, thats right! CD vs Vinyl.

I love it when those 'olde worlde', traditional zeros and ones (with all their warmth and integrity) are compared to the 'nasty', new fangled, computer generated zeros and ones with all their steely harshness and clinical ruthlessness....

I give up.

Could just be a case of using a better DAC?

As to your second point, Mr Penguin, im not really sure what you're getting at...?

 

[Anonymous]

Chebby

There are two optical digital inputs and one can be coaxial to special order. There is also one Analogue input. There are three inputs in total

The reason we discontinued the USB input was that it wasn't selling. No one wanted it, they all wanted Optical because it's what most devices have. We've put USB on the new product because we've got 2,500 chipsets left over and this will use them up. And there is space!

All we try to do is respond to customer feedback, we don't try to tell people what they want or what they should do. You're doing that and so do others on these Forums forgetting that the world is an enormous place and that others out there want it the way we've done it.

There is a picture on the site that clearly shows how they connect up.

Ash

 

[Anonymous]

Apple is "bit perfect" out of the box and usually include an opticial digital output that goes up to 24/96 too.

Windows can be fine but one may need to buy more hardware to get the digital out, use certain drivers, and often software with poor interfaces such as Foobar and Winamp.

When iTunes on a Mac will give you a bit perfect output, and integrate with a digital streamer - Airport Express - and an iTouch as a touch screen remote, it seems like the perfect solution for this type of setup.

 

[Alec]

Eddie Pound:
Apple is "bit perfect" out of the box and usually include an opticial digital output that goes up to 24/96 too.

Windows can be fine but one may need to buy more hardware to get the digital out, use certain drivers, and often software with poor interfaces such as Foobar and Winamp.

When iTunes on a Mac will give you a bit perfect output, and integrate with a digital streamer - Airport Express - and an iTouch as a touch screen remote, it seems like the perfect solution for this type of setup.

on the other hand, using an ipod as a remote when apple make a remote would seem very extravagant to some, and some remain unconvinced that bit perfection really matters in a real listening environment.

 

[plastic penguin]

chebby:plastic penguin: To me, the PC music is very, very clinical sounding (IMHO), lacking the sonic integrity you get from a more conventional set-up - it doesn't have 'soul' of the traditional amp and CD player. Now where have I heard that before? Oh, thats right! CD vs Vinyl. I love it when those 'olde worlde', traditional zeros and ones (with all their warmth and integrity) are compared to the 'nasty', new fangled, computer generated zeros and ones with all their steely harshness and clinical ruthlessness.... I give up.

Noooo chebby, please don't give up.

Of course you've heard it before from me and others - that proves there is a strong case for the dicussion. But it's not about goodies and baddies, it's about hearing music in its true form, uncondensed sound, and there are those, like yourself, who like it. That's fine, I have never given anyone a hard time over the type of music or system they have or prefer. It's about opionions. . .and it's those opinions that creates sales. Nothing further to add.

 

[Alec]

Ashley James:...we don't try to tell people what they want or what they should do. You're doing that...

Ash

No he isnt, and neither are you for that matter. dont, with respect, drag the conversation into such silliness. i hope we're all better than that.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Not aimed at any specific poster, but if this deteriorates into name-calling and pantomime-style 'Oh yes he did'/'Oh no he didn't', then the writing is on the wall...

 

[Anonymous]

al7478:Eddie Pound:
Apple is "bit perfect" out of the box and usually include an opticial digital output that goes up to 24/96 too.

Windows can be fine but one may need to buy more hardware to get the digital out, use certain drivers, and often software with poor interfaces such as Foobar and Winamp.

When iTunes on a Mac will give you a bit perfect output, and integrate with a digital streamer - Airport Express - and an iTouch as a touch screen remote, it seems like the perfect solution for this type of setup.

on the other hand, using an ipod as a remote when apple make a remote would seem very extravagant to some, and some remain unconvinced that bit perfection really matters in a real listening environment.

Al

It's a very different sort of remote.

Apple Remote is a basic IR one thrown in the box to operate Front Row.

Remote App turns iTouch and iPhone into a glorious Sonos-esque controller. It's an optional extra, but seeing as many people may have an iTouch anyway, it could be considered a free bonus.

You're right about bit perfection, and it probably isn't audible in blind A-B tests to most, although it's reassuring to know that you can just plug your optical lead into your DAC and not worry about anything.

For me the interface will make or break computer audio. Having a Windows desktop computer in a living room HiFi rack with a keyboard and mouse isn't what it's about, ideally. That's where iTunes with AirTunes and Remote App and Apple TV really bridge the gap, IMO.

 

[Alec]

Yeah fair do's Andrew. Apologies to all for my contribution to the descent.

 

[Alec]

Eddie Pound:al7478:Eddie Pound:
Apple is "bit perfect" out of the box and usually include an opticial digital output that goes up to 24/96 too.

Windows can be fine but one may need to buy more hardware to get the digital out, use certain drivers, and often software with poor interfaces such as Foobar and Winamp.

When iTunes on a Mac will give you a bit perfect output, and integrate with a digital streamer - Airport Express - and an iTouch as a touch screen remote, it seems like the perfect solution for this type of setup.

on the other hand, using an ipod as a remote when apple make a remote would seem very extravagant to some, and some remain unconvinced that bit perfection really matters in a real listening environment.

Al

It's a very different sort of remote.

Apple Remote is a basic IR one thrown in the box to operate Front Row.

Remote App turns iTouch and iPhone into a glorious Sonos-esque controller. It's an optional extra, but seeing as many people may have an iTouch anyway, it could be considered a free bonus.

You're right about bit perfection, and it probably isn't audible in blind A-B tests to most, although it's reassuring to know that you can just plug your optical lead into your DAC and not worry about anything.

For me the interface will make or break computer audio. Having a Windows desktop computer in a living room HiFi rack with a keyboard and mouse isn't what it's about, ideally. That's where iTunes with AirTunes and Remote App and Apple TV really bridge the gap, IMO.

Yes i agree the interface is key (as you can se from some of my other posts/threads - still havent found a good solution), as is a remote, i just wish there were more good purpose built remotes and i didnt feel i have to get an ipod for no other reason.

 

[Anonymous]

AL,

I use iTouch as a Remote and love it. I also think Sonos is excellent and the Duet is fine.

When I bought my iTouch I did worry it was a pricey remote control, as I use an old Nano for portability, but the Touch continues to impress me as a nice little tablet for email, YouTube, casual browsing, etc, etc.

Get one in the Apple Refurb store and if you dislike it then you shouldn't lose much by eBay'ing it.

From your signature I assume you just have a little laptop wired straight into the DAC?

- -

HUGHES,

You may have missed them but I wrote a few questions further back in the thread.

In was in regards to your existing equipment and asking more detail about the AVI, Arcam and iPod setup.

Thanks

 

[Alec]

Eddie Pound:
AL,

I use iTouch as a Remote and love it. I also think Sonos is excellent and the Duet is fine.

When I bought my iTouch I did worry it was a pricey remote control, as I use an old Nano for portability, but the Touch continues to impress me as a nice little tablet for email, YouTube, casual browsing, etc, etc.

Get one in the Apple Refurb store and if you dislike it then you shouldn't lose much by eBay'ing it.

From your signature I assume you just have a little laptop wired straight into the DAC?

- -

HUGHES,

You may have missed them but I wrote a few questions further back in the thread.

In was in regards to your existing equipment and asking more detail about the AVI, Arcam and iPod setup.

Thanks

Almost. Desktop with M Audio 2496 card (as the PC didnt have the connections for the DAC on its own) > DAC > amp > speakers.

 

[Anonymous]

al7478:chebby:plastic penguin: To me, the PC music is very, very clinical sounding (IMHO), lacking the sonic integrity you get from a more conventional set-up - it doesn't have 'soul' of the traditional amp and CD player.

Now where have I heard that before?

Oh, thats right! CD vs Vinyl.

I love it when those 'olde worlde', traditional zeros and ones (with all their warmth and integrity) are compared to the 'nasty', new fangled, computer generated zeros and ones with all their steely harshness and clinical ruthlessness....

I give up.

Could just be a case of using a better DAC?

It may well be just by using a better DAC but until more dealers demonstrate computer audio and different DAC's and WHF do comparative reviews how are we to know? I listened to a MAC driving a Supernait at Bristol and found the sound clinical. But I bought a Fubar III as an experiment and find Internet radio from a Vista PC into a Cyrus 6VS/Quad 11L stunning. The Fubar cost me less than £150! The Supernait is over £2k. What is so clear is that hifi has never been more complex or more potentially rewarding. But it has never been easier to make very costly mistakes.

 

[Anonymous]

Don't forget that an iPod Touch is a stunningly good computer in it's own right. It not only controls iTunes including Movies perfectly, it also enables you to browse the net, post on various forums, buy music and Movies, get a weather forecast locate all types of business and take-aways or restaurants in your area. It finds wi fi sources, tells you whether they are secure, so you can send emails from anyhwere because there are so many people who've left theirs open and more.

I'm 62 and I love it and my uncle is 96 and he loves his too. It cost £199. We're the iPod generation! I can even watch the BBC iPlayer when the wife is watching a dreadful TV program too!

Ash

The picture is my Grandfather and my Uncle's Dad.

 

[Anonymous]

AL,

What software do you use and how do you control it?

DLD,

What you were hearing at Bristol was the Supernait DAC. Not very good, is it?

 

[Alec]

Ashley James:It finds wi fi sources, tells you whether they are secure, so you can send emails from anyhwere because there are so many people who've left theirs open

Ash

Tho i think it is now illegal of me to take advantage of this

 

[Anonymous]

I don't know how you'd tell that. I was in a Chemists the other day, there were five suitable routers in range and one was open with a commercial sounding name, so I sent three emails while I was waiting.

I'm not a keen Law breaker, but if you're computer is set to lock to any available service, you're not going to know sometimes.

Ash

 

[Alec]

Eddie Pound:
AL,

What software do you use and how do you control it?

DLD,

What you were hearing at Bristol was the Supernait DAC. Not very good, is it?

Phew...sorry, long story. Currently the answer is nothing, due to a crash a few weeks ago, and i decided to get into the new year before i re-rip everyhting again. i was just using media player, and later winamp, with flacs ripped in EAC. Becasuse of the recent problems and the fact i just want to enjoy the music, i want to simplify things tho - i9m thinking media centre remote with just good MP3s (LAME, EAC etc), or the same with a mac mini atatched to my pc by remote desktop and ethernet.

Probably a conversation for another thread tho. Speaking of which, i had a similar conversation here : http://whathifi.com/forums/t/88855.aspx .

 

[Anonymous]

Eddie Pound:
DLD,

What you were hearing at Bristol was the Supernait DAC. Not very good, is it?

I so wanted to like it but I still don't get how to tell a good DAC. Is it down to the chipset or what?

 

[Anonymous]

al7478: Phew...sorry, long story. Currently the answer is nothing, due to a crash a few weeks ago, and i decided to get into the new year before i re-rip everyhting again. i was just using media player, and later winamp, with flacs ripped in EAC. Becasuse of the recent problems and the fact i just want to enjoy the music, i want to simplify things tho - i9m thinking media centre remote with just good MP3s (LAME, EAC etc), or the same with a mac mini atatched to my pc by remote desktop and ethernet.

Probably a conversation for another thread tho. Speaking of which, i had a similar conversation here : http://whathifi.com/forums/t/88855.aspx .

AL,

I'd recommend buying two disks and mirroring them either in your PC or in a NAS device like the Raidsonic which costs about £95 without disks. The mac mini only has a notebook style disk with no raid so you're likely to loose the lot again sometime. For playback have you tried Media Monkey or Foobar2000? I find Media Monkey way better than iTunes/Media Player/WinAmp and it's free. Computer audiofile rated it as the best sounding although the logic of how the software can affect sound is way beyond me.

 

[Alec]

DLD:al7478: Phew...sorry, long story. Currently the answer is nothing, due to a crash a few weeks ago, and i decided to get into the new year before i re-rip everyhting again. i was just using media player, and later winamp, with flacs ripped in EAC. Becasuse of the recent problems and the fact i just want to enjoy the music, i want to simplify things tho - i9m thinking media centre remote with just good MP3s (LAME, EAC etc), or the same with a mac mini atatched to my pc by remote desktop and ethernet.

Probably a conversation for another thread tho. Speaking of which, i had a similar conversation here : http://whathifi.com/forums/t/88855.aspx .

AL,

I'd recommend buying two disks and mirroring them either in your PC or in a NAS device like the Raidsonic which costs about £95 without disks. The mac mini only has a notebook style disk with no raid so you're likely to loose the lot again sometime. For playback have you tried Media Monkey or Foobar2000? I find Media Monkey way better than iTunes/Media Player/WinAmp and it's free. Computer audiofile rated it as the best sounding although the logic of how the software can affect sound is way beyond me.

Yes, ive had acronis for some time but never got to grips with it, much to my regret. ill try again soon and get a good backup procedure in place.

P.S. ive tried the softwares you mention, tho briefly. thing is, id rather have the familiarity of windows (the free ones seem a bit much for me - theres lots to tweak which im not really in to), or itunes or front row, which i have not used but i think would be intuitive enough. Plus, they can both be easily used with remotes (i think).