To Avi Hi-Fi

[admin_exported]

Without wanting to provoke an arguement or any confusion, I would like to ask a few questions directed mainly at Ashley of AVi Hi-Fi.

First of all, I was interested in your pre/power combination that you have and your CD player as a future upgrade from my Arcam system. It seemed to suit my needs exactly - my speakers need quite alot of power and the powerful combination that AVi provided seemed perfect. It was at the top range of my budget for this year, but it was realistic and I felt I would find a dealer who sold them and listen to a demo. I thought I would also arrange a listen to some of your AVi Duo speakers as a potential upgrade from my B&W speakers when needed.

However, I couldn't find one dealer who sold your products in the U.K. Not one. Although your website lists them as dealers, not one of them local to me could demo products. They said I should buy off your website, but I wouldn't do that as I want to listen to them! Oh, but you only sell your active products and your little Neutron speakers on there.
Then I read that you no longer believe seperate products to be a viable option any more. Well then why do you sell them still and advertise them on your website? Do you believe someone is going to buy them when you slate off all systems comprised of seperates?

So, I thought, I'll have a listen to you AVi ADM9.1 speakers. I listened at a dealer to day (which I won't name) and I bought my Arcam CD73T to use as a source. First of all, I was told "You won't want to use that"..."why not?" I asked, insulted that the £450 I had spent wasn't worthy of playing on the speakers, but then I was told that "it's no different to an ipod or a computer".............I honestly nearly died of laughter at this point. Apparently, my CD73T is no better than an computer with a switching PSU and a hopeless output stage on optical output. What tosh.

Therefore, I decided to do a comparison between the ipod I had in the car using no compression and the Arcam CD player using its digital output. This was a blind test which I made the dealer do behind a black curtain. The difference was huge; the Arcam was miles ahead. But what shocked me the most, was that even with my Arcam it didn't actually sound that impressive. There was no sense of scale, the soundstage was way too forward and when turned up loud the sound was compressed and distorted. I actually feared I was going to break the tweeters, the top end was that harsh. And I havn't mentioned how even with the overpriced subwoofer there was a lack of depth of bass and that even with it practically turned off, the sub plodded along without any care for the timing of the music or the accuracy of timbre.

But apparently I want to get rid of my seperates, according to your site. Apparently, your ADM speakers are "much more
reliable than separates because they are self contained, therefore
there is not the worry that there might with so many separates." Please can I see your scientific proof for that, because that's like saying a TV with an integrated DVD player will be more reliable than a TV and a DVD player.

Well I can tell you this, I don't want to give up my seperates. I'll stick with my kettle leads, vinyl played on a "dodgy" turntable that may electrocute me and I'll keep my Arcam amplifier that only has 100watts per channel. Your blasé attitude to selling products will only be your company's downfall in the economic pit fall we are facing.

Hughes123.

 

[Anonymous]

Chebby, I agree with you up to a certain point - The dealer told me that any PC with an optical output into the speakers will be better (no matter what) than a CD player's optical output. I can't see how this could possibly be true with switching PSUs and I've never, ever had a PC stable enough (and I've had some powerful beasts over the years) to constantly run an album from start to finish without stopping at one point or causing hopeless amounts of jitter.

Did you and J.D conduct the tests blind? If you didn't, it would be interesting to see if there would be any difference in the results. I'm going to give it a go though on my computer through a DAC Magic and listen to the results. It could be the end of my CD73!

What was a bit suprising though, was the AVi speakers: They were dissapointing considering the reviews they get...could anything have been wrong with them?

 

[chebby]

Hughes123:Did you and J.D conduct the tests blind? If you didn't, it would be interesting to see if there would be any difference in the results.

Yes I have done blind a-b testing between Solo-Mini CD and my DAC+laptop with a friend and my wife. A large DVD boxset was placed in front of the Solo-Mini display and the tracks were playing before they came into the room so they could not hear the CD starting up or see the display to tell what the source was. I took care beforehand to ensure the volumes were as much the same as my ear could tell. (No SPL measuring equipment here!)

[Edit] Since then I have improved the op-amp in the DAC and added a dedicated power supply for it so it sounds even better now.]

I should add - for the sake of balance - that the same friend's iMac/iTunes + DacMagic + Primare i30 + Rega Apollo system sounded better (to me) with the Rega CD player, but he believes the iMac+DAC sounds better. It at least proved that music played this way cannot be dis-missed out of hand without trying it for yourself.

Here are John Duncans findings...

http://whathifi.com/forums/t/163741.aspx

 

[drummerman]

Hughes123:
Without wanting to provoke an arguement or any confusion, I would like to ask a few questions directed mainly at Ashley of AVi Hi-Fi.

First of all, I was interested in your pre/power combination that you have and your CD player as a future upgrade from my Arcam system. It seemed to suit my needs exactly - my speakers need quite alot of power and the powerful combination that AVi provided seemed perfect. It was at the top range of my budget for this year, but it was realistic and I felt I would find a dealer who sold them and listen to a demo. I thought I would also arrange a listen to some of your AVi Duo speakers as a potential upgrade from my B&W speakers when needed.

However, I couldn't find one dealer who sold your products in the U.K. Not one. Although your website lists them as dealers, not one of them local to me could demo products. They said I should buy off your website, but I wouldn't do that as I want to listen to them! Oh, but you only sell your active products and your little Neutron speakers on there.
Then I read that you no longer believe seperate products to be a viable option any more. Well then why do you sell them still and advertise them on your website? Do you believe someone is going to buy them when you slate off all systems comprised of seperates?

So, I thought, I'll have a listen to you AVi ADM9.1 speakers. I listened at a dealer to day (which I won't name) and I bought my Arcam CD73T to use as a source. First of all, I was told "You won't want to use that"..."why not?" I asked, insulted that the £450 I had spent wasn't worthy of playing on the speakers, but then I was told that "it's no different to an ipod or a computer".............I honestly nearly died of laughter at this point. Apparently, my CD73T is no better than an computer with a switching PSU and a hopeless output stage on optical output. What tosh.

Therefore, I decided to do a comparison between the ipod I had in the car using no compression and the Arcam CD player using its digital output. This was a blind test which I made the dealer do behind a black curtain. The difference was huge; the Arcam was miles ahead. But what shocked me the most, was that even with my Arcam it didn't actually sound that impressive. There was no sense of scale, the soundstage was way too forward and when turned up loud the sound was compressed and distorted. I actually feared I was going to break the tweeters, the top end was that harsh. And I havn't mentioned how even with the overpriced subwoofer there was a lack of depth of bass and that even with it practically turned off, the sub plodded along without any care for the timing of the music or the accuracy of timbre.

But apparently I want to get rid of my seperates, according to your site. Apparently, your ADM speakers are "much more
reliable than separates because they are self contained, therefore
there is not the worry that there might with so many separates." Please can I see your scientific proof for that, because that's like saying a TV with an integrated DVD player will be more reliable than a TV and a DVD player.

Well I can tell you this, I don't want to give up my seperates. I'll stick with my kettle leads, vinyl played on a "dodgy" turntable that may electrocute me and I'll keep my Arcam amplifier that only has 100watts per channel. Your blas‚ attitude to selling products will only be your company's downfall in the economic pit fall we are facing.

Hughes123.

Good morning young jack and a happy new year to you. Also gratulations on the letter of the month and iQ3's you've won, you must run out of space in your room soon ... .

Regarding your posting, a bit provocative but I appreciate your opinion even if I can't agree with you in every respect. Still, here is where I'm with you;

I have heard the ADM9's and 9.1's on numerous occasions in dealer and private surroundings. They did'nt 100% convince me for the same reasons as you've mentioned, too upfront...

... and here's where I'm not ...

though scale of the sound and volume were certainly never an issue! Long story short, when I had them at home, in my living room, they suddenly sounded sublime with huge dynamics and powerful scale (bearing in mind these are only small standmounts after all!). Two things I always find useful is to a/ listen to spoken voice on radio and b/ leaving the room and listen to how it sounds next door (room). Sounds odd but when I'm not in the hifi room and it sounds like there is a real person/band playing in there it often correlates with what I hear when going back in. Same with the radio/voice, if it sounds good and acurate I normally like the music too. It's a bit like a well calibrated tv, I need something I know well, like a voice and go from there.

Anyway, so I had them 9.1's here and liked them. We then switched in a cheap sw (not AVI's £700 one) and everything came together. One of the best hifi's I've heard and I have tried many as you may know. So real that coming back from one of the many live gigs I go to would not have been as painful as it normally is. Having said that, it was terrific at low volume too.

We then did a comparison with a CA 840C, a very good player. It was easy to do blind testing with the remote up/down source select on the AVI's. We could not detect any difference between the CA and the in-built dac of the actives. Repeatedly switching we simply guessed.


Having said all this, these speakers are not for everyone. Active control has certain attributes that conventional hifi sometimes lacks. Upfront presentation being just one of them and perhaps a lack of perceived bass another one. It's simply the amps control of the cones and lack of overhang so common with passive amplification. It comes over as a very dry bass though I admit that the 9.1's benefit from a good and fast sub (so do most passive speakers I've tried, regardles of size). What you get is a super transparent sound of almost unmatched clarity with none of the 'woollyness' of badly matched speaker/amp systems. I recently read with interest a system shoot out which included one of Meridian's active systems at over £20'000. They came to largely the same conclusion with regards to tonality and presentation compared to the passive contenders. - If you come from the Musical Fidelity/Arcam etc school, I'd guess you'd find it difficult to come to terms with active speakers, the AVI's specifically.

I'm not saying one is right and the other wrong but having used a lot of hifi I would probably say active is more acurate.

regards

 

[Anonymous]

Mr Hughes

We have long since stopped making and selling separates. CD players ceased manufactur two years ago and the Lab Series Integrated in January '08. We leave their details on the website because owners and people buying them second hand ask for information and protest if we take it off.

Currently we make just ADM9.1s and Neutron 5s and the shortly to be announced Subwoofer with built in DACs and 3 x 100 watt power amps.

The ADM9.1s have their own DAC and preamplifier built in so I believe the dealer was telling you that it was better to use the digital output of a CD player and better still to use one from a computer because the user interface is so much better. Just like any piece of Pro Audio gear the ADM9.1's have sample rate conversion and no jitter, so can be used with any digital source without worry.

In a previous posting I explained that there were significant differences between ADM9.1s and a normal passive separates system (they measure substantially better and so sound better) and this is most obvious in two regions. The first dulls the sound; Passive crossovers introduce significant audible distortion for about an octave each side of the crossover point and this brightens and hardens the sound. We've virtually eliminated this effect by using a specially designed (for us) drive unit with a very broad bandwidth and very steep, in phase, filters. The second problem that ADM9.1s eliminate is bass boom. In a passive speaker the crossover components are placed between the amplifier and the drive units, they are resistive and prevent the amplifier's low output impedance from stopping overhang and overshoot. Therefore, although you won't know it, what you assume is bass is actually time related distortion and it extends right up through the mid band blurring and hardening the sound as well. If you have a low powered amplifier, it too, may be adding to this problem. The effect of this better control (it's in the Sub too) is that the sound is leaner and far more transparent and this is immediately obvious on classical and acoustic music and speech or anything mixed to sound like a real band, but not necessarily so on some modern rock and pop, which can have an extremely limited dynamic range, often added excitement from deliberately introduced distortion and can rely on sudden periodic stops to give the impression of loudness. You can still hear a benefit, but it is less convincing.

From reading your post I detect resistance to the idea from the start and a refusal to accept a computer as a reliable source of noughts and ones. It's possible too, that our dealer misinformed you. I'm very sorry that the experience hasn't been satisfactory, I think if you go back and give it another go some time in the future or even pop down to the factory and have lunch with us, you'll probably hear what all the fuss is about.

What the above explanation should indicate is that there is so much distortion in passive speakers, that regardless of the quality of amp driving them, they can never equal the performance of the best active ones. In our tests with our own equipment and the Duos driven with special 600+ Watt Monos, the original ADM9s were significantly louder and clearer and there was nothing we could do to narrow the gap. Hence our claims.

It is a culture shock and it won't suit everyone, but they have been our best seller yet with this year running at twice last so far. We pray it doesn't stop now Christmas is behind us and more and more people lose their jobs.

Ashley

 

[drummerman]

And a happy New Year to both you Ash and chebby too

 

[drummerman]

Ashley James: ... or even pop down to the factory and have lunch with us, you'll probably hear what all the fuss is about.

That is just so not going to happen. Don't believe him hughes.

 

[Anonymous]

It bloody well is! And what's more I'm still sleeping badly because I couldn't buy you one. It's your duty to return.

I also like very much what you've written about the speakers. They are a culture shock and it's hard for anyone to believe a little company like us is right and everyone else is wrong, but Mart is extremely clever.

I think the problem in the past is that Active speakers have always been ludicrously expensive and they haven't really convinced. When I was at ATC and had their Actives and Passives side by side, it was no contest, I just couldn't listen to the passive ones. However I subsequently discovered there were better passive speakers out there, because their drive units were better and therefore a crossover easier to design. I left in '95 so am not up to date with their present range.

The other problem with Active speakers is that designers have carried over the problems of passive speakers to their active designs, so although they sound better, it's not by a huge amount. Also, in the early days, the crossovers were used to correct drive unit failings and this tends to sabotage advantages too.

With all these controversies on various Brit Forums I'm sure people will understand that if we can sell enough direct and through dealers and agents all over the world to make a living and build up the business, we're better off doing that than risking a bad review over here.

Ash

 

[Anonymous]

so let me get this right: you say your active speakers must sound better than passive ones because you can obtain better measurements from them.
yet, you also say that digital sources are all the same, regardless of the different measurements they produce.

surely i cant be the only one who finds all this confusing or contradictory

 

[Anonymous]

ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit:so let me get this right: you say your active speakers must sound better than passive ones because you can obtain better measurements from them.
yet, you also say that digital sources are all the same, regardless of the different measurements they produce.

surely i cant be the only one who finds all this confusing or contradictory

From the other thread, I understood him to mean that digital transports should sound indifferent through their DAC due to the reclocking?

Also, Hughes...

If you fed the Arcam CD via digital then what you were hearing was the AVI DAC. Did you feed the CD via analogue and compare that way too?

What music were you listening to?

How was the iPod connected? Which iPod and what file formats?

What is your current system?

 

[ElectroMan]

Hughes123:
I can't see how this could possibly be true with switching PSUs and I've never, ever had a PC stable enough (and I've had some powerful beasts over the years) to constantly run an album from start to finish without stopping at one point or causing hopeless amounts of jitter.

Really? Maybe you should get a Mac, or a better configured PC, as I've never had these problems on either a Mac or PC!

And a Happy New Year to everyone!

 

[Anonymous]

Ashley James:With all these controversies on various Brit Forums I'm sure people will understand that if we can sell enough direct and through dealers and agents all over the world to make a living and build up the business, we're better off doing that than risking a bad review over here.Ash

Hi Ashley,

Not sure I follow your point here. You don't want to risk handing your equipment over incase it gets a bad review? To me this statement doesn't come across as being the most honest in the world.

 

[chebby]

Ashley has stated many times that he requires reviewers to understand the need to use Apple Macs and Apple TV to get the best from his products.

What Hifi? did not comply with this requirement when they reviewed the original ADM9's and (despite the 5 star review) I think he is reluctant to submit any more equipment to the British Hifi press until they all understand his position, his wishes, and the superiority of Apple equipment for media/hifi replay.

Ashley has said this enough times and I wish everyone would just agree with him so we don't get any more diatribes from him!

 

[Clare Newsome]

The fact that we're wall-to-wall Apple Mac at WHF and regularly test a range of equipment in a dedicated computer-music room (with Macs and PCs and a range of kit, including Apple TV) rather deflates Ashley's argument, too.

As does the description of the AVI ADM 9 speakers on this very website, ahead of our five-star review:

"AVI ADM9

The perfect solution for those who want to add active speakers to a Mac or PC and get hi-fi levels of performance"

Maybe it's the addition of 'or PC' that's scuppered our chances of getting a review sample of the 9.1s!

 

[Anonymous]

Ah, I knew he recommends Apple though I didn't realise he considers them a necessity. Strange.

 

[Anonymous]

Octopo:Ah, I knew he recommends Apple though I didn't realise he considers them a necessity. Strange.

made even more strange by his assertion that all digital sources are the same! ie. if any digital source is run through the DACs in the ADM9.1's then they will all sound the same...

im still very confused!!!

 

[drummerman]

chebby: ...Ashley has said this enough times and I wish everyone would just agree with him so we don't get any more diatribes from him!

Again, somewhat provocative (as most AVI related issues these days, no doubt due to Mr James's diplomatic subtle way of making his point

) but I can assure you categorically that this is not the case. We used them with different products/transports and PC without any problems and to good effect.

I'd guess he would gain relatively little by supplying the things for review. This is not because I think they would get anything but a decent review (as happened in the past) but it would probably always be with some note saying it fits the purpose of a computer based system implying that this sort of set up is different, perhaps even inferior to your conventional separates system. This product is so much more than that and can equal many a very expensive systems if you happen to appreciate/like the sound but is definitively not for prolific box swappers forever trying to 'upgrade' nor is it attractive for dealers which make a lot of money from punters changing equipment. I'm sure it's the way to go especially for people that like a somewhat more elegant solution rather than the usual assortment of boxes just as all-in-ones are increasingly popular. Unfortunately most have certain shortcomings, usually lack of power and the decent ones are not cheap once you add decent speakers.

You don't see many B&O, Meridian, PMC, ATC, Dynaudio or whatever active products reviewed here or elsewhere. Sure, the odd one pops up but on the main they are rare, sometimes not practical for home use, expensive and so probably of little interest to the average punter.

Neither do I think they are perfect. Some more inputs and a volume display/decent remote would be helpful as would some sort of HT integration, perhaps processor and smaller active rears. Upgradeability with regards to new DAC's or any other retrofittable component changes would be nice too so you don't have to sell and buy the new version as and when it happens. Still, at the price there's little to complain imo.

regards

 

[Andrew Everard]

drummerman:but it would probably always be with some note saying it fits the purpose of a computer based system implying that this sort of set up is different, perhaps even inferior to your conventional separates system.

I think that's more a case of inferral than implication.

 

[drummerman]

Andrew Everard:
drummerman:but it would probably always be with some note saying it fits the purpose of a computer based system implying that this sort of set up is different, perhaps even inferior to your conventional separates system.

I think that's more a case of inferral than implication.

Sorry, my lack of english language knowledge, especially obvious when badly hungover ... what do you mean?

 

[Alec]

drummerman:Andrew Everard:
drummerman:but it would probably always be with some note saying it fits the purpose of a computer based system implying that this sort of set up is different, perhaps even inferior to your conventional separates system.

I think that's more a case of inferral than implication.

Sorry, my lack of english language knowledge, especially obvious when badly hungover ... what do you mean?

He means you inferred that WHF were saying they are more suited to a pc system, and perhaps inferior to a traditional setup, but that WHF did not mean to imply it. He means you read between the lines and came up with something they didnt mean you to conclude.

 

[drummerman]

al7478:drummerman:Andrew Everard:
drummerman:but it would probably always be with some note saying it fits the purpose of a computer based system implying that this sort of set up is different, perhaps even inferior to your conventional separates system.

I think that's more a case of inferral than implication.

Sorry, my lack of english language knowledge, especially obvious when badly hungover ... what do you mean?

He means you inferred that WHF were saying they are more suited to a pc system, and perhaps inferior to a traditional setup, but that WHF did not mean to imply it. He means you read between the lines and came up with something they didnt mean you to conclude.

Thanks al7478. Been here for a few years yet still can't speak the language. Indeed I did, my apologies. I literally just read the Clare's link to the review and you can't say fairer than that. More important is to add a good sub. Most shortcomings mentioned are sorted by doing this.

regards

 

[Alec]

ElectroMan:Hughes123:
I can't see how this could possibly be true with switching PSUs and I've never, ever had a PC stable enough (and I've had some powerful beasts over the years) to constantly run an album from start to finish without stopping at one point or causing hopeless amounts of jitter.

Really? Maybe you should get a Mac, or a better configured PC, as I've never had these problems on either a Mac or PC!

And a Happy New Year to everyone!

I agree ElectroMan, i too find Mr Hughes's findings in this regard bizzarre!

Now, i must just query - is there not some genereal confusion going on in this thread as to whether we're on about tracks ripped to a pc or, or ones played straight from the pc cd drive...? For what its worth (very little from me) things sound obviousl;y worse from a cd in my pc, than from files ripped from those CDs. Summat to do with transports? No idea. since i entered the hifi worls ive been hdd based and have little inclination to go back to a CD player.

 

[Tony_R]

Hughes123:
....... I can't see how this could possibly be true with switching PSUs and I've never, ever had a PC stable enough (and I've had some powerful beasts over the years) to constantly run an album from start to finish without stopping at one point or causing hopeless amounts of jitter.

Since Windows XP arrived (even pre service pack versions) the old argument of stability and Windows' "blue screen of death" is firmly dead and buried. The only thing that causes instability problems with XP is bad hardware. Period.

For 5 years I worked in an IT department supporting 2000 user XP desktops and hardware (and user!!) problems were always responsible for instability, not the operating system. I don't have enough experience of supporting Vista (we don't use it yet!) so can't comment on that.

This is not to say I'm a staunch Windows supporter - I have an old Mac G3 at home and would dearly love a Macbook Pro (but can't afford one)

As for the switch mode PSU.. Computer PSU's are so well regulated and smoothed (even the cheap ones aren't half bad) and there is even more regulation and smoothing on the motherboard itself, so I would regard this as a non issue.

Tony.

 

[Anonymous]

FWIW I prefer Apple Computers and believe them to be better made and more durable as well as better suited for home use because they are silent, come with remote control and are useable by the whole family without problems.

However we do have customers using PCs and getting just as good sound quality because they know how to set them up and use them. And shops like John Lewis are beginning to sell domestically acceptable media PCs that will appeal to Windows enthusiasts. I understand that Windows 7 is much better too and may address the issues that have been getting Microsoft such bad publicity for a year or two now. Yesterday for instance, I found two news items about them. One talks of Zunes freezing right across America and the other of the company being about to lay off 17% of its workforce or 15,000 people. Apple are gaining business from this situation I'm sure.

I have to say that it does surprise me that anyone should be querying the suitability of either PCs or Macs for music since so much of it is made on them in the first place, as are many Movies and TV programs too. Noughts and ones are happy bunnies until we try to convert them to analogue or if we're on the Pro side, when we're creating them.

Have a look at Sound On Sound if you're interested.

Ash

 

[Alec]

Ashley James:FWIW I prefer Apple Computers and believe them to be better made and more durable as well as better suited for home use because they are silent, come with remote control and are useable by the whole family without problems.

However we do have customers using PCs and getting just as good sound quality because they know how to set them up and use them. And shops like John Lewis are beginning to sell domestically acceptable media PCs that will appeal to windows enthusiasts. I understand that Windows 7 is much better too and may address the issues that have been getting Microsoft such bad publicity since the arrival of Vista. Yesterday for instance, I found two news items about them. One talks of Zunes freezing and the other of the company being about to lay off 17% of its workforce or 15,000 people. Apple are gaining business from this situation I'm sure.

I have to say that it does surprise me that anyone should be querying the suitability of either PCs or Macs for music since so much of it is made on them in the first place, as are many Movies and TV programs too. noughts and ones are happy bunnies until we try to convert them to analogue or if we're on the Pro side, when we're creating them.

Have a look at Sound On Sound if you're interested.

Ash

None of which has anything to do with why you insist on having your speakers tested with apple kit (i sincerely doubt you were ever promised this by the way, and if you were you shouldnt have been), nor why apple is better for hifi (i understand some of those supposed reasons anyway, but is the difference audible or merely theoretical?).

Surely no source would be so much to the detriment of the speakers as to drastically alter tehir sound, to the degree that a good review becomes a bad one...?