This is why WHF should take measurements

[Frank Harvey]

Measurements are important. Manufacturers will measure various aspects of a product's performance in order to determine what it is doing right and what it is doing wrong. Having said that, many of them will conduct listening sessions to ensure that these specs aren't meaningless - if it came to final testing and a product measured well but didn't sound quite right, they'd tweak it to sound right by ear, even if that means affecting the specs.

 

[bigboss]

David, bretty is waiting for your response here.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Caught it about 10 mins ago

It was my day off today, so not been around as much as usual

 

[jaxwired]

The skeptic engineer in me wants to agree with the OP. Unfortunately, all the stuff that is supposed to be indistinguishable in ABX testing sounds noticably different to me in practice including DACs.

 

[rainsoothe]

hm... well actually he was telling the op NOT to switch dac to the one he was considering. And I don't know about measurements and whatnot, all I know is that the Naim Dac V1 sounds WAY better then the Musical Fidelity M1 dac I used to own. I don't know the reason, but I don't really care, since there's nothing I could've done to make the MF sound like the Naim, so why would a measurement be relevant to my sound preference? I mean unless I'm planning on building my own, it really is, imo, a completely irrelevant piece of information.

Naim equipment is voiced to sound like Naim equipment, if you like it, and many do, nothing else sounds the same.

In that respect you are quite correct, measurements would be irrelevant.

The question you should be asking is why the two dacs sound so different, the performance of modern dac chips are virtually identical, so why the big difference?

Why? Why should I be asking that question? For me, the only relevant question is HOW the sound of one piece of gear differs from another, and not how the difference is achieved. The rest of the data is for the geek in me, or the engineer in whomever, but from a strictly listening and musical enjoyment perspective, I think the "why" is completely irrelevant.

That is of course the 'correct' answer in moden hi-fi philosophy, but I prefer a different approach.

If two products that should sound effectively identical do not, then I find myself asking why. Generally, I think, it is an attempt by the designer to imprint his, or the brands, character on the sound and this troubles me.

Not, I hope, for any geek-ish reasons but for the simple and quite practical requirement that the system does not favour different types of music. A simple example, a system that excells in terms of PRaT may sound fantastic on most uptempo music, driving a lot of rock and electric jazz along at a pace that sounds involving and exciting. I used to have a system that sounded just like that but, as I was drawn into the world of opera, I found that the system failed to respond to the tempo and mood changes that are so important, everything sounded rushed and the enjoyment was ruined.

I do play a lot of different music, I may 'get into' something and play it a lot but sometimes, as now, I am in a kind of 'scattergun' mode, playing different things. In the last few days this has included some Jamaican Dancehall, mid 60s acoustic jazz, Arizona bar room rock and roll and some more modern 'indie' pop by the likes of Diiv and Imagine Dragons.

Again a simple example, I would not want a setup that gave me extra bass on the reggae, welcome as it might be in that instance, if it was going to smear the bass lines of the jazz which would make some of the stuff I listen to impossible.

Appologies for the length of the reply, but I did not want to contradict your post without trying to explain why I think these differences are more important than a simple matter of taste.

hey

No worries, nothing to apologize for . I still don't see what the numbers have to do with this, since, as I see it, you're looking at this exactly like I am. The numbers will just help you understand the reason behind the sound you like and how stuff works - that's all.

 

[davedotco]

hm... well actually he was telling the op NOT to switch dac to the one he was considering. And I don't know about measurements and whatnot, all I know is that the Naim Dac V1 sounds WAY better then the Musical Fidelity M1 dac I used to own. I don't know the reason, but I don't really care, since there's nothing I could've done to make the MF sound like the Naim, so why would a measurement be relevant to my sound preference? I mean unless I'm planning on building my own, it really is, imo, a completely irrelevant piece of information.

Naim equipment is voiced to sound like Naim equipment, if you like it, and many do, nothing else sounds the same.

In that respect you are quite correct, measurements would be irrelevant.

The question you should be asking is why the two dacs sound so different, the performance of modern dac chips are virtually identical, so why the big difference?

Why? Why should I be asking that question? For me, the only relevant question is HOW the sound of one piece of gear differs from another, and not how the difference is achieved. The rest of the data is for the geek in me, or the engineer in whomever, but from a strictly listening and musical enjoyment perspective, I think the "why" is completely irrelevant.

That is of course the 'correct' answer in moden hi-fi philosophy, but I prefer a different approach.

If two products that should sound effectively identical do not, then I find myself asking why. Generally, I think, it is an attempt by the designer to imprint his, or the brands, character on the sound and this troubles me.

Not, I hope, for any geek-ish reasons but for the simple and quite practical requirement that the system does not favour different types of music. A simple example, a system that excells in terms of PRaT may sound fantastic on most uptempo music, driving a lot of rock and electric jazz along at a pace that sounds involving and exciting. I used to have a system that sounded just like that but, as I was drawn into the world of opera, I found that the system failed to respond to the tempo and mood changes that are so important, everything sounded rushed and the enjoyment was ruined.

I do play a lot of different music, I may 'get into' something and play it a lot but sometimes, as now, I am in a kind of 'scattergun' mode, playing different things. In the last few days this has included some Jamaican Dancehall, mid 60s acoustic jazz, Arizona bar room rock and roll and some more modern 'indie' pop by the likes of Diiv and Imagine Dragons.

Again a simple example, I would not want a setup that gave me extra bass on the reggae, welcome as it might be in that instance, if it was going to smear the bass lines of the jazz which would make some of the stuff I listen to impossible.

Appologies for the length of the reply, but I did not want to contradict your post without trying to explain why I think these differences are more important than a simple matter of taste.

hey

No worries, nothing to apologize for . I still don't see what the numbers have to do with this, since, as I see it, you're looking at this exactly like I am. The numbers will just help you understand the reason behind the sound you like and how stuff works - that's all.

I will try to get to the nub of this.

My point is that choosing by ear only may well lead to a setup that is heavily biased towards the kind of music that you like right now. Play different styles of music and you may be missing out because the setup handles them poorly and you do not see how good this kind of music can be.

Perhaps this is more important to me as my musical likes vary so much so I need to be able to play anything.

Anyway, I am off to the gym to train, I have just downloaded Sun Ship and Intersteller Space to do my work out to.........*pardon*