DocG said:
Hi all,
Done some speaker auditioning last week, and this is where I got by now:
Intrigued by JMacMan's posts on active speakers (and B&O in particular), I made an appointment in the nearby B&O shop for an audition of the BeoLab 9s. Very kind and helpful dealer. Music was played through a BeoSound 5 Encore streamer (FLAC from a USB-stick). The speakers happened to be installed really close to each other (some 60(!) cm between them), next to the wall, with all wires tidily hidden, so that they could not be repositioned ( :roll
. We listened as was. The sound was very clear, crisp - analytical, I dare say - but the bass was muddy. Did the 500 W ICEpower amp lose its grip on the woofer? Don’t think so. The problem was more likely due to the terrible acoustics (all concrete, plaster, glass, with a suspended wooden floor... Why do they do that in hi-fi shops?). No soundstage worth mentioning, I suppose because of the small distance between the speakers.
When I discussed my objections with the dealer, he had an unexpected proposal (did I mention he was kind and helpful? :clap: ). He happens to live really close to me, and invited me to his place, to listen to his BeoLab 5s in better circumstances. I’ m not sure I want to take the risk to listen to the 5s, afraid I might really like them (but can’t afford them). But then again, it may give an impression of what the 9s are capable of in a well treated room. I think I might just give it a go!
Good on you for having an open mind and going and having a listen!
B&O usually gets written off by audiophiles as lifestyle systems for the rich and ignorant - I know that's what I thought of them when I was fully paid up Naimee and caught up in the whole Flat Earth, 'PRaT' marketing thing at the time.
It's amazing what you do hear though, when you're willing to open you're mind and put aside (as much as we all can) preconceived notions, ideas and of course biases. I eventually found ES Sony to better my then Naim system (all carefully choosen and bought new) in musical terms overall, and put my money where my mouth was by selling off the Naim at a considerable loss.
The situation you desribe re setup is not that unusual unfortunately. B&O don't market to audiophiles, and I've also come across situations where the speakers were within 60 or so cm of each other, and close to a wall, so (very) nearfield listening was the best one could manage under the circumstances.
I've listened to Lab 9's (usually just short 20 minute or so demos) at a number of different dealerships, including interstate, and found that like any HiFi speaker, poor setup re room placement usually results in a poor sound - ultimately one can't break the rules of physics as regards the effects of boundaries, hard reflective surfaces in rooms etc.
Indeed, there are at least three owners of Beolab 9's I'm aware of, who very much favour ultra modern, minimalist interiors, with bare polished flloorboards, lots of ceiling to floor glass, and bare, hard walls etc, and have resorted to altering the potentiometer settings for the drivers from factory default, to attenutate the treble output, as they feel it is too bright. I've also read of Lab 5 owners putting slate slabs under the speakers when placed upon suspended wooden floors with a cavity underneath, as the big 15" downward firing bass driver can apparently drive such spaces quite well, if measures aren't taken to de-couple it from the floor...
Well, B&O design and calibrate all their speakers using the cube, along with individually calibrating and testing each speaker as it is built to give the flattest amplitude and frequency response possible given the design compromises (which all speakers have) and like any speaker built to be as transparent, and accurate as possible, a really bad room can still cause difficulties - as I say, you can't break the laws of physics.
With the Lab 5, the system automatically calculates the bass response in room by means of sweeping tones and a microphone, so as to EQ the bass against inbuilt calibration settings - however from anecdotal comment (rare I must say) some owners have had issues with the aforementioned suspended wooden floors.
In the Case of the Lab 9, there is a environmental position switch for the bass, re 'free' 'wall' or 'corner' - one merely looks at the neat graphic that aB&O supply in the manual as regards placement, and sets the switch accordingly.
However, I'd suggest tthat in the case of both Lab 9's and 5's, whilst you can more or less plonk them anywhere within reason in an acoustically well balanced room, and get good sound, they still respond with careful placement with respect to boundaries in a room, and to a balance of furnishings in a room - ultra bare, minimalist furnishings are likely to cause problems re sound balance for any accurate, neutral and transparent loudspeaker, as are suspended wooden floors for something that has a bass extension capability of -10db @14Hz - that's Velodyne DD15 or JL Audio Fathom dedicated sub territory!
So, I'd try and visit another dealer or two, to get a better picture of how you feel about the Lab 9's - I don't think any speaker, no matter how good, is going to show it's best with a stereo pair only 60cm apart and hard up against a wall.
If you think you might be interested in the Lab 5's, or even if not, but just to get a handle on the sound, (and yes, the Lab 9's sound like a scaled down lab 5) why not take up the dealer on his offer?
I'd pop around with a nice bottle of wine etc, and have a listen - I've found the B&O community to be both remarkably passionate about their B&O kit, but also largely free of audiophile hype and general BS - it's personally one of many reasons that I went to B&O myself - yes I'm interested in audio - but I'm a musician first and foremost, and dislike the whole audiphile 'scene' on many levels, not least the pseudo science, foo, and arguments, of which B&O is largely free thank Goodness!
Lastly, and re your comments about bass - my pair are still relatively new (145 hours on them now) and I am just starting to stretch their legs a little, on the likes of movies etc, and the bass is just superb to my ears. LFE is unbelievable - there's no passive speaker (including the likes of B&W 801's) that I've heard that has the grip, control, slam, punch and drive of these. What I have personally heard that betters them on LFE, is the likes of the Lab 5's, a Velodyne DD15" with motional feedback, and an JL Audio Fathom. Nothing I've heard from so called 'musical' subs such as the REL's etc, or PV1 B&W comes close IMHO.
In fact, the first time my system did it's 'thing' with LFE, I was actually alarmed to the point I feared for the mechanical safety of the drivers - the sound was like very high quality subwoofers, not a HiFi speaker, and I actually visited the dealer to voice my anxieties as I was afraid that even with all the processor settings at factory defaults, that damage may occur due inadvertant overload. Nope, not really - thats' what they're designed to do was the answer in brief. I even had some input from Dr. Geoff Martin on the funtions of the proprietary ABL or Adaptive Bass Linearisation that B&O use, and as to how it is designed to protect the whole system against thermal and mechanical overload, in a manner that would simply not be possible with a conventional separates passive system. When you start to read of the R&D and depth of design detail such as this, you start to realise where the money goes - and for me, they're worth every cent. For the price, I get an fully active 3 way speaker with very high quality drivers, state of the art cabinets, the proprietary ALT lens, 6 channels of amplification, control DSP, and two, high quality stereo subs - all in two stunning 'boxes'.
As regards music (as against movie LFE) I find they have a very monitor like quality. Play solo piano, and the sound is like, well, solo piano. There's no bloom, or excessive warmth in the bass, just clean, pitch accurate bass that sounds like the lower octaves of a piano, perfectly balanced with mid and top end. Similarly with say string quartets, solo classical guitar, full symphony orchestra etc - the bass never feels anything other than perfectly 'real' and natural, both in balance to the rest of the sound. Jazz with string bass and kickdrum also sounds beautifully balanced. But put on some classical pipe organ and prepare to be amazed - they'll shake and pressurise the room and make ornaments 'buzz' - just like a real organ in fact.
I mostly hang out on Beoworld forums, and made a thread about the speakers when I got them - you may find some of the thoughts and comments from others useful perhaps - including some reasons I gave an enquirer re choosing Lab 9's over B&W 803D's (the price competitor here in Australia) and an endeavour to help a new owner with problems of brightness that I mentioned.
Here is a link: http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/t/3915.aspx
In an acoustically well balanced room, (i.e. more or less 'normal') I can't see many people taking an active dislike to the Beolabs really - of course other approaches to HiFi have their appeal as well, such as horns, omnidirectional designs, large panels, open baffle diopoles etc - all have their strenghts and weaknesses, and no doubt in some areas will outperform the Beolabs.
For me personally, I made a decision whilst planning out a new system to take me into the next decade plus, that I would not continue with a passive separates setup, as in a small apartment the clutter of racks to hold the kit, lengthy speaker wires and associated interconnect cables etc, and all the general paraphernalia of HiFi and audiophile obsessions was something I very much wanted to move away from, and return as it were to my musical roots, with a simple, elegant, but very high performance system with stunning looks, and seamless integration into my lifestyle, rather than being expected to fit my lifestyle around it.
As such, I feel that in the main, I have reached that goal, and am immensly satisifed with my Beolab 9's as both a purchase, an outstanding music and AV system, and something that compliments and adds to my life in a manner that no HiFi product I've ever owned before has succeded in doing.
Hope this helps
JMac
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