The DAC scam

[ToppingSMSL]

More dependent on what the analogue circuitry does afterwards...

The DACs are measured after the analogue circuitry.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

It's hard enough for most people to notice 1dB, let alone 0.1dB.

I know, but under ideal conditions some people can notice 0.2 dB changes. So the possibility has to be eliminated.

1db isn't that hard btw.

 

[davidf]

I know, but under ideal conditions some people can notice 0.2 dB changes. So the possibility has to be eliminated.

1db isn't that hard btw.

I didn't say it was - I said "most people".

 

[davidf]

The DACs are measured after the analogue circuitry.

Then there's something unmeasurable that makes some of them sound different. I'll take that Pepsi challenge with two DACs of my choice.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

As a cautionary note, I can see this thread getting personal - it won't be allowed to, as per the forum's rules.

As a parallel, chap I bought my Spendors from said he was replacing them with the speakers he used to use - he knew they were empirically worse, but preferred them. All I know is that I therefore got a bargain...

 

[Witterings]

- you arent going to actually hear differences between DACs - you'll maybe hear differences due to slightly different volume levels, the way you're focusing on the music, etc etc. That's not actually differences with the sound coming out of the DACs though.

I genuinely believe you're wrong!

Just because YOU can't hear any difference, doesn't mean that other people can't.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

I genuinely believe you're wrong!

Just because YOU can't hear any difference, doesn't mean that other people can't.

I've just explained to you why you cannot reliably tell differences with subjective listening. You think you are hearing differences but they can be down to volume differences, focusing on different aspects of the sound each time, our poor memory of what we've heard, and placebo and expectation bias.

Unless you've conducted proper blind tests with volume matching you just don't know. I'm sorry but that's the way it is. And the measurements tell us differences are going to be VERY small.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Then there's something unmeasurable that makes some of them sound different. I'll take that Pepsi challenge with two DACs of my choice.

There isn't. It's most likely volume mismatch and expecting bias and the way we listen differently each time focusing in different areas of the music. Also your head being in a slightly different position relative to the speakers can also affect what you hear.

If you haven't ruled these known effects out by doing a volume match double blind test then you do not just start claiming there is something unmeasurable at work.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

I know the consumer must be safeguarded from market elements. Businesses are like living entities, they need to feed in order to sustain and prosper and the main facet of the beast is the power of marketing.

YouTube has become the mantle for the next Messiah, especially those with wonky hair but if you look closer, it's just a different type of brand.
It's not a voice from the heavens, it's another business hiding behind the mask.
Nativity isn't unique, we had this inkling but now the Messiah has reassured and weaponised me with his words.
There is value from twisted tongues, the truth can come in all forms, what is important is your capacity to remain objective.

Attacking the messenger and ignoring the points made. Not a good look.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Sounds a bit straw-manny to me.

In the scenario every conceivable care was taken to ensure that both presentations were matched by the meticulous and independent store assistant / boffin in a white coat, but you still preferred the component that measured less well. Then what?

When does it ever happen that the store assistant checks volumes even with a dB meter? (which is t that accurate btw)

It's not a strawman - you cannot do subjective comparison of DACs and expect a reliable result. Especially in a store where it's a different room to the one you're used to and you'll be noticing different things because of the new room acoustics.

This is why auditioning equipment in stores is so pointless. Especially DACs as there's no significant measurable differences between them!

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Attacking the messenger and ignoring the points made. Not a good look.

Veering towards the personal. Let's not go there, please.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Veering towards the personal. Let's not go there, please.

I was merely pointing out that he was attacking the person making the points rather than the points he made.

 

[manicm]

When does it ever happen that the store assistant checks volumes even with a dB meter? (which is t that accurate btw)

It's not a strawman - you cannot do subjective comparison of DACs and expect a reliable result. Especially in a store where it's a different room to the one you're used to and you'll be noticing different things because of the new room acoustics.

This is why auditioning equipment in stores is so pointless. Especially DACs as there's no significant measurable differences between them!

No significant measurable differences between DACs? I seriously doubt that, simply because standalone DACs are hugely user configurable, and they do not all sound the same.

This is a slippery slope...

 

[ToppingSMSL]

No significant measurable differences between DACs? I seriously doubt that, simply because standalone DACs are hugely user configurable, and they do not all sound the same.

This is a slippery slope...

Well you can look at the measurements for yourself. If you're talking about filter changes most people use the default as it tends to be the best. But you can look at the measurements for each filter. If you haven't done that please do then get back as to whether you still doubt they all sound the same.

 

[manicm]

Well you can look at the measurements for yourself. If you're talking about filter changes most people use the default as it tends to be the best. But you can look at the measurements for each filter. If you haven't done that please do then get back as to whether you still doubt they all sound the same.

1. Devices that have measured similarly have not always sounded the same - that's a fallacy.

2. Manufacturers implement the DACs and may implement the analogue output stages differently as well.

So I'm still a bit dubious that they all sound the same.