The DAC scam

[ToppingSMSL]

The audiophiles favourite YouTuber (wink wink) is back and today he's making a point I've been pushing on here and other forums for a year or so now.

View: https://youtu.be/7Sg1nYLmLCw?si=6mUFb67eZbkTKC27

 

[Deliriumbassist]

First time I've seen this guy, and whilst I don't disagree with a bunch of it... it's very 'source: trust me bro.' It's a rant, pure and simple.

Also have to chuckle at his 'military spec' thing, because he also doesn't understand what it means. Military spec just means that it's passed muster for use in a military setting. It doesn't necessarily mean it's better than something else. So those chips are still probably going to be audio DAC chips, because there will be situations where a DAC needs to be used in a military setting and needs to be MILSPEC. Durability, place of manufacture... all sorts can be involved with MILSPEC.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

First time I've seen this guy, and whilst I don't disagree with a bunch of it... it's very 'source: trust me bro.' It's a rant, pure and simple.

Also have to chuckle at his 'military spec' thing, because he also doesn't understand what it means. Military spec just means that it's passed muster for use in a military setting. It doesn't necessarily mean it's better than something else. So those chips are still probably going to be audio DAC chips, because there will be situations where a DAC needs to be used in a military setting and needs to be MILSPEC. Durability, place of manufacture... all sorts can be involved with MILSPEC.

I think his source is the multitude of measurement results and scientific hearing research which backs him up. And the fact the audiophiles who claim to hear differences don't tend to do blind listening tests with matches volumes (the volume thing is very important and why it's pointless demoing DACs at a hifi dealer as the output voltages are more than likely not the same).

 

[Deliriumbassist]

And at zero point does he reference any sources. As I said - I'm not disagreeing with a bunch of his stuff, output voltages being different being one of them. It's just a crap video on par with other ranty videos which have been done to death before.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

And at zero point does he reference any sources. As I said - I'm not disagreeing with a bunch of his stuff, output voltages being different being one of them. It's just a crap video on par with other ranty videos which have been done to death before.

I agree he doesn't site sources but it's not as crap a video as any subjective DAC review video. And there's plenty of those out there.

 

[Gray]

A favourite quote from a poster on another forum:
'No DAC under £1000 is worth considering'

Mind you, on the same forum somebody bought a £200 audiophile mains fuse....and said that, after careful evaluation, he couldn't detect an audible difference.
BUT, he went on to (seriously) suggest that he'd have benefitted by buying a more expensive fuse.

There will always be those that equate higher cost with products necessarily being better at the job they do.
(Or are supposed to be doing, in the case of audiophile fuses 🤪).

 

[matthewpianist]

Ultimately, all a DAC chip does is convert the series of on and off pulses into an analogue signal. The analogue stage after that is going to make the biggest difference. Personally? I'm more than happy with the DAC in my CD player, the DAC in my WiiM Ultra and the DAC in my Presto P10. The only time I've noticed a real difference from using a seperate DAC was when I tried a Rega DAC with the Apollo-R I used to have, but again, I'm quite sure that will have been more about the analogue end than the chip itself. It could also have been expectation bias.

I'm no expert on this, I can go only on what my ears tell me.

 

[Jasonovich]

A favourite quote from a poster on another forum:
'No DAC under £1000 is worth considering'

Mind you, on the same forum somebody bought a £200 audiophile mains fuse....and said that, after careful evaluation, he couldn't detect an audible difference.
BUT, he went on to (seriously) suggest that he'd have benefitted by buying a more expensive fuse.

There will always be those that equate higher cost with products necessarily being better at the job they do.
(Or are supposed to be doing, in the case of audiophile fuses 🤪).

I am to happy to declare that none of the above is in reference to moi ha ha ha ha 🤣.

I think it is important to hold the middle ground between sheer Luddite and Coocoo Fairies.
I haven't looked at the video yet but it's fair to say the guy with the wonky hair, does say a lot of sensible things which isn't unique, heard it many times before but his methodology irritates the **** out of me.
So click bait, like reading the bold headlines from a comic newspaper tabloid.

The Martians invade Downing Street - dun dun dun da...(mind you, chance would be a fine thing!)

View: https://youtu.be/Qw9oX-kZ_9k?si=UTDVy24NWDy5uIRg

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Ultimately, all a DAC chip does is convert the series of on and off pulses into an analogue signal. The analogue stage after that is going to make the biggest difference. Personally? I'm more than happy with the DAC in my CD player, the DAC in my WiiM Ultra and the DAC in my Presto P10. The only time I've noticed a real difference from using a seperate DAC was when I tried a Rega DAC with the Apollo-R I used to have, but again, I'm quite sure that will have been more about the analogue end than the chip itself. It could also have been expectation bias.

I'm no expert on this, I can go only on what my ears tell me.

DACs are measured after the analogue output stage not at the output of the chip. The number of people who don't seem to realise this is amazing

 

[davidf]

Instead of watching the clickbait video, I've been pondering if there's any technical reasons why he has wonky hair. I reckon it's so that when it rains, the water that rolls off the top of his head and along the fringe is forced to veer off to the left and away from his face. You don't want a serious face like that getting wet.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

What amazes me about this sort of thing is quite how worked up some people get. You could argue that there's a public service element to trying to alert people to areas where they might spend money unnecessarily, but I wonder what the percentage of the population that is actively considering a stand-alone DAC actually is - vanishingly small, I suspect. There are surely far more important things to be concerned about if advancing human knowledge is your aim. The cynic in me feels that the shouty tone that I believe these sorts of things adopt (and I say believe because I almost never watch anything of this ilk) shows that the primary driver is raising profile and revenue for the person in the video. Life's too short.

 

[davidf]

What amazes me about this sort of thing is quite how worked up some people get. You could argue that there's a public service element to trying to alert people to areas where they might spend money unnecessarily, but I wonder what the percentage of the population that is actively considering a stand-alone DAC actually is - vanishingly small, I suspect. There are surely far more important things to be concerned about if advancing human knowledge is your aim. The cynic in me feels that the shouty tone that I believe there sorts of things adopt (and I say believe because I almost never watch anything of this ilk) shows that the primary driver is raising profile and revenue for the person in the video. Life's too short.

Agreed, and likely, anyone considering this sort of DAC isn't interested in these videos. If they're looking for conversions, these videos are a waste of time.

 

[Jasonovich]

Instead of watching the clickbait video, I've been pondering if there's any technical reasons why he has wonky hair. I reckon it's so that when it rains, the water that rolls off the top of his head and along the fringe is forced to veer off to the left and away from his face. You don't want a serious face like that getting wet.

🤣
I believe his other synopsis, wonky scissors are no different from straight scissors 🙂

 

[Al ears]

Those aren't scissors they are medical shears.

 

[Jasonovich]

He sounds like a child hyperventing, if you raise your tone it will sound more convincing.
Ba Ba Ba - it's really a cloak to deceive you but he still sounds the same.
Hubris or factual or maybe both of those in part? If it pulls your string.

Not all DACs are based on chipsets, some are bespoke like Chord, like R2R. One thing that is missing from his YT video is Context. All these have to be fleshed out, such as the integrity of the design, the components used etc etc.
I agree the higher you go, the greater the diminishing returns. why do rich people drive Ferrari's because, they can.

If you ask my opinion, If you're looking to make your last upgrade, where you draw a definitive line, I think, £1K or less is probably all you need to spend on a DAC but anything >£1K is personal choice, surely?

The 11th Commandment should be 'Thou Shall Not Bs'.

Great entertainment value though. 🙂

 

[Jasonovich]

Those aren't scissors they are medical shears.

I can't get anything pass you! 🤣

 

[ToppingSMSL]

He sounds like a child hyperventing, if you raise your tone it will sound more convincing.
Ba Ba Ba - it's really a cloak to deceive you but he still sounds the same.
Hubris or factual or maybe both of those in part? If it pulls your string.

Not all DACs are based on chipsets, some are bespoke like Chord, like R2R. One thing that is missing from his YT video is Context. All these have to be fleshed out, such as the integrity of the design, the components used etc etc.
I agree the higher you go, the greater the diminishing returns. why do rich people drive Ferrari's because, they can.

If you ask my opinion, If you're looking to make your last upgrade, where you draw a definitive line, I think, £1K or less is probably all you need to spend on a DAC but anything >£1K is personal choice, surely?

The 11th Commandment should be 'Thou Shall Not Bs'.

Great entertainment value though. 🙂

DACs are measured at the RCA or balanced outputs. The "integrity of design" and components used already form part of the measurement make-up. Why does this always need to be explained to some audiophiles?

 

[Jasonovich]

Why does this always need to be explained to some audiophiles?

Audiophiles?
Me?
Nah
I just love listening to music 😁 👍

 

[twinkletoes]

DACs are measured at the RCA or balanced outputs. The "integrity of design" and components used already form part of the measurement make-up. Why does this always need to be explained to some audiophiles?

Not to sure anybody said they weren’t chap.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Not to sure anybody said they weren’t chap.

You implied it by mentioning them.

 

[Fandango Andy]

A lot of what he says makes sense.

On a slight, but connected tangent, why are some DACs so big? You can fit the components into a cigarette box size case, an external power supply is the same size or smaller. They don't generate as much heat as an amp requiring heat sinks and space for airflow. Why make them the size of an amp other than aesthetics of a system and price justification.

 

[Revolutions]

A lot of what he says makes sense.

On a slight, but connected tangent, why are some DACs so big? You can fit the components into a cigarette box size case, an external power supply is the same size or smaller. They don't generate as much heat as an amp requiring heat sinks and space for airflow. Why make them the size of an amp other than aesthetics of a system and price justification.

Audiophile tone wire famously performs better with room to breathe. And the internal floor means the wire will need to be raised at least 20mm above the base to avoid interference.

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

I have 3 different DACs which I use regularly; a separate Topping DAC, 2 which inbuilt in 2 amplifiers (Denon & Rotel).
I hear no difference between them

 

[Jasonovich]

I know the consumer must be safeguarded from market elements. Businesses are like living entities, they need to feed in order to sustain and prosper and the main facet of the beast is the power of marketing.

YouTube has become the mantle for the next Messiah, especially those with wonky hair but if you look closer, it's just a different type of brand.
It's not a voice from the heavens, it's another business hiding behind the mask.
Nativity isn't unique, we had this inkling but now the Messiah has reassured and weaponised me with his words.
There is value from twisted tongues, the truth can come in all forms, what is important is your capacity to remain objective.

 

[RoA]

I know the consumer must be safeguarded from market elements. Businesses are like living entities, they need to feed in order to sustain and prosper and the main facet of the beast is the power of marketing.

YouTube has become the mantle for the next Messiah, especially those with wonky hair but if you look closer, it's just a different type of brand.
It's not a voice from the heavens, it's another business hiding behind the mask.
Nativity isn't unique, we had this inkling but now the Messiah has reassured and weaponised me with his words.
There is value from twisted tongues, the truth can come in all forms, what is important is your capacity to remain objective.

Great comment.