Struggling to find the perfect setup!

[lex365]

Hi guys.

I am finding it hard to feel happy with my home audio setup! A little background. I was into hi-fi around 10 years ago having an Arcam CD player, Marantz amp, Wharfdale speakers (not the best!) and semi decent interconnects. I was always very happy with the sound from almost all the music I listened to, which includes a broad and varried selection!

After a house move and some space constraints I ended up listening to a lot of music on the computer and for the best part of 7-8 years used JBL Creature (1,2 and 3) desktop speakers and sub as well as Bang & Olufsen earset headphones. Whilst by no means been elite I was always happy with the sound yet through various cirumstances (headphones usually dont last longer than 6 months and I moved the JBLs into the living room to run on the TV) I decided to serioulsy upgrade my set up (stay with me, im getting there!)

All my music is digital in iTunes, a mix of Apple Lossless and 256/320 MP3s. I work in a conservatory which is fairly spacious, easily 10 feet by 14 feet, however mostly glass (not sure how much this affects sound!) so I began rooting aroung online for desktop speakers. My first purchase were the Bose Companion 20s after reading some favourable reviews however I sent these back after less than a week. Very base heavy and I found it impossible to get them to sound right even with some heavy EQing. So after a little more reading around I decided to push the boat out and went for the Audioengine A5+ and D1 DAC. I still have these and at times they can sound awesome, however I am still not able to feel satisfied with there overall level of sound and performance across the board. Certain music sounds amazing, typically dance, electronic, classical. However rock, metal, some rap, anything with a stong midrange sounds very unsatisfying. Very base heavy at times, muffled, vocals and high end stuff can be dround out my muffled overpowering base and midrange. Even with some EQing some of my favourite tracks sound awful.

So, finally a question for you! What should I do to get the best possible sound of of a desktop setup?! I have tried evrything form changing the set up of the room, speaker positions, EQ settings, I have swapped between iTunes/VLC/JMRiver to try and get the best sound and for the £500 I have spent I am really not completely satisifed.I have decided to extend my budget to +£1000 and with regards to where to go form here I have been looking at a few options.

1) Swapping the speakers for something a little more upmarket, maybe the KEF300A, but I have read mixed reviwes on these and I am not sure what they will do the Audioengine A5+ wont.

2) Invest in some actual hifi, so a decent amp and bookshelf speakers and simply use my Mac as in input to the amp.

3) Sack off the speakers/amp altogether and use the money to buy a very good pair of headphones.

I am leaning towards 3, then 2, and 1 is more a last resort. Any ideas suggestions?! I could probably extend to £1500 with the £500 I would get back from the bits I have already bought. All feeback welcome! Thanks for reading!

 

[nopiano]

Welcome, lex.

Your speakers are some of the best of their type and you are using a DAC already. So you need to take a biggish leap to get better.

I'd favour 2) because I am not mad on phones, but if 3) then a dragonfly and the best phones that are comfy would sound awesome. Otherwise someone here like davedotco will recommend Presonus Eris powered speakers. An alternative might be a NAD 3020, which is more like sixty than thirty watts, with some nice speakers may suit.

I fear you need to get the speakers off your desk though, whatever you have. So first, how about trying the A5 on a stand or on the wall?

 

[lex365]

Thanks for the fast reply!

Theres no way i can mount them on anything as the conservatory is glass. I have them on the Audioengine rubber stands which elevates them around 5 inches and has the pointed at my ears rather than my body. I guess it brings up the question of digital audio. Am I losing any sound quality with my Macbook Pro sound card or even using iTunes? Another factor I forget to mention is that I have been listetning to EQued music since day one. I had the bass and treble turned up on the old Marantz and also on the JBLs, as well as having the iTunes EQ on something like rock/classical to give the music a little more weight. i tried up a +£1500 system in Superfi running my Mac to a Musical Fidelity amp/DAC and some decent £600 bookshelves. We played some FLAC files and whilst sounding a lot more balanced with no EQ ( I turned it off my end and I was told that the more top end amps dont have bass/treble settings) I found the music a little flat and I wasnt as blown away as I felt I should have been!

There is definately some getting used to more flat and balanced music as the artist would want me to hear it however I am really after that "wow" sound. I am not one for crazy bass of trying to shake the house down. I much prefer detail, sharpness, seperation and balance and I would be interested to see how far I could take that within my budget of £1500.

 

[Craig M.]

Your budget would cover Avi ADM9rs or DM5+ DAC/pre.

Based on my 'hifi experience' so far, that's what I'd buy with that budget.

http://www.avihifi.co.uk/products.html

 

[Overdose]

It would be hard to think of a better alternative than a pair of AVI DM5s.

 

[davedotco]

Welcome, lex.

Your speakers are some of the best of their type and you are using a DAC already. So you need to take a biggish leap to get better.

I'd favour 2) because I am not mad on phones, but if 3) then a dragonfly and the best phones that are comfy would sound awesome. Otherwise someone here like davedotco will recommend Presonus Eris powered speakers. An alternative might be a NAD 3020, which is more like sixty than thirty watts, with some nice speakers may suit.

I fear you need to get the speakers off your desk though, whatever you have. So first, how about trying the A5 on a stand or on the wall?

Strange you should mention that, but no, not this time. There have been some issues with noise on the Eris models in recent times, a contributer to this forum is having these issue at the moment.

In any case the requirement is for a desktop speaker and I normally regard a 5 inch two way to be the largest sensible.

I would move forward as follows, replace the A5 with a pair of Equator D5, 5 inch dual concentrics with DSP to give the flatest most controlled sound at the price, typically about £370. Use the D1 as a dac preamp and you are good to go, though you will need cables or adaptors.

If you are determined to spend more, then the AVI DM5 might be the way to go, though some other contributers have more experience with these models.

Finally, if you are still spending money, replace the D1 with a really decent usb dac/headphone amp and a nice pair of phones. Intensly personal, so I will leave that to you.

 

[lex365]

Thanks for that Dave!

How familiar are you with the A5s? I mean they are a huge step up from the Bose Companion 20s (obvioulsy!), however with all the rave reviews and 5 star ratings I am feeling like maybe its a setup issue, or possibly I am just expecting too much?

I have been trying out some of my library tonight to pin point the issues. I ran some dance/electronic with the EQ on and off and both sound pretty damn good. I fired up some Deadmau5, Eskmo and also some Lindsey Sterling for the highs of the violin and it really sounds impressive. Also fairly easiy listening rock/alternative such as Sting, Dire Straits and Travis sound really great, especially with some light EQing (a slight 4k+ boost and tapering off under 250hz), however anything with a little more meat on the bones, especially in the midrange, heavier rock and metal or anything where there are stong vocals as well as midrange guitars sounds truely horrific. With no EQ on everything is deathly flat and some tracks I struggle to understand the lyrics the vocals are that weak. Then you end up getting into the murky waters of manually trying to EQ your fave tracks, however I find this to be a real mindfield, especially with a 10 band EQ when you are not sure what you are doing! Too much and the music sounds very processed and it loses all balance. I remember when i had the old Marantz a slight boost in trebble and base would make all the difference whilst not really distoring the music too much. It had a far more natural feel to it where as now some of my favourite songs sound terrible and are not a pleasure to listen to.

I will check out the recommended speakers, however in the short term I thought about popping into the local hifi showroom, taking my kit in and running it alongside some of the stuff they have to get a real feel for where I am at and what is possible on my budget. I am not against the idea of just having a more basic desktop set up, maybe a slight advancement on the JBLs and using most of my budget to buy some high end headphones.

 

[rainsoothe]

hi

if I understand correctly, glass emphasises bass quite a bit, so the room itself might be an important part of the problem. Try maybe using some curtains or curtain-type installation P) behind the speakers and/or on the left or right, especially if they're really close to the glass.

Also, I am not familiar with the gear you're using in your current setup, nor with AVIs, but for that budget i would go for a Marantz PM6005+Dali Zensor 3+Arcam iRDAC (or, if you want to use the DAC in the Marantz, then use an USBtoSPDIF converter like Audiophilleo 2 or some cheaper stuff, like Musical Fidelity V-link or Halide Design the Bridge). Or keep the Arcam iRdac suggestion, then go Rotel RA-10 (or Exposure 1010) for amp + B&W 685 S2.

Another suggestion that I haven't heard myself, but seems to be a better alternative to the Nad d 3020 is Micromega Myamp, which you could pair with, let's say B&W 685 S2.

Whatever you chose, though, do try to make a shortlist and audition the stuff before buying it.

goodluck

 

[ID.]

From your description of the sound I think you might be having issues with the speaker/desk interaction.

Dave's advice regarding the woofer size is very pertinent. Can you do more to decouple them from the desk?

I've heard good things about IsoAcoustics' products

http://www.isoacoustics.com/index.php

Not sure exactly how your desk is placed, but would it be possible to put the speakers on some solid stands on the floor on the far side of your desk? That's what I do with a pair of Adam A7X. There's no way I'd want them sitting on my desk, even if I had a bigger desk, although the ability to adjust the frequency response (bass shelving, etc.) on studio monitors is useful for making them adapt to your listening environment. e.g. in his review of the Focal CM50s you can see how varied your options are for adjustment. http://andreweverard.com/2014/04/03/review-focal-cms-50-active-speakers/

 

[lex365]

I realise that I am slightly dominating my own post! However I had a play around this evening in order to find out why I am struggling to like my new set up. So heres what I did.

I thought the best place to start would be to compare new and old side by side. So I unplugged the JBLs (for anyone who is not sure what the JBL Creatures are, they are fairly basic entry 2.1 computer speakers, around £70) and I placed them directly on top of my A5s. The sub goes on its usually place, the floor under the desk, and I connect the A5s via the USB DAC and then the JBLs via the 3.5mm jack. By simply turning the DAC on and off I can control which speakers are running for real time side by side comparison.

Obvioulsy its a no brainer that the A5s produce a much much better sound, or at least they should. However in terms of overall sound and feel, the JBLs seem to just destroy the A5s. I asked my housemate to take a seat and listen as I turned the DAC on and off and tell me which set up cost £70 and which set up cost £500 and within 2 switches he had the JBLs as the £500 set up. So of course we are both thinking (especially me!) what the hell is going on?!

After some more playing around it became obvious where the difference lay and why I am struggling so much to accept the A5s or even the Bose Companions before them. The JBLs are 2.1. For the best part of 8 years the sub has sat on the floor under a desk. I am used to crisp and sharp at ear level with seperate base rumbling from underneath. It has always created a more 3 dimensional sound with the base been smooth and in the background, creating a more rumbling in the gut feel, where as now the base is been punched into my chest and everything is coming from the same direction. So this now creates an option 4! EQ the A5s to reduce base and increase the treble and purcahse a seperate sub (possibly the Audioengine S8) to recreate a sort of high end JBL set up. I watch a lot of movies on my set up so having 2.1 would be advantageous.

Opinions, thoughts, and potentially criticism welcome! I am a noob afterall.

Cheers guys.

 

[ID.]

Nothing like some excess bass to smother the midrange and blur out detail. Looking at the JBL setup, my concern would be that it gives an artificial feeling of definition and detail because of a missing mid range (the classic smile EQ/boom tizz. i.e. strong bass and treble with a recessed midrange can give an illusion of detail and a sense of excitement, but then again I may be wrong because I've never heard that setup). Either way, if you enjoy that sound, there's no reason not to pursue it.

Might be worth checking out, but I'd want to confirm whether the crossover could be adjusted high enough to recreate that kind of satellite + sub feel that you are going for. I see the S8 has a 30 day audition option in the US, but not sure whether you have the opportunity to audition.

 

[lex365]

Sorry I didnt see any replies prior to my last post. My desk is just over 6 feet long and the speakers sit at the ends of the desk, there is roughly 5 feet between the centre of each speaker. They are around 8-10 inches away from the back wall (fairly thin plastic as its a conservatory) and each speaker sits at least 2.5 feet away from any glass. When in a comfortable working position I sit in the middle of the desk around 3-3.5 feet from each speaker, with both speakers facing me. My trigonometry could do with some work but that creates so I am not sure of angles but thats as best as I can describe the exact set up.