DocG said:I would like to have the choice, just tick the appropriate box for the occasion: raw, normalized, dynamically compressed.
DocG said:Could that be done on the fly? Or would Spotify need to triple its content (not likely to happen, I guess)?
andyjm said:Steve, it is not clear to me at all what the foobar DR measure actually measures. It certainly isn't dynamic range in the 'engineering' sense.
Do you know what it measures? If not, I would hesitate to reach any conclusions about what spotify are doing on the basis of the foobar results.
steve_1979 said:Have you ever wondered what the 'Set the same volume level for all tracks' option in Spotify is really doing?
No probably not, but I have.
Googling didn't help to find an answer to this question because some people say that it works by normalization and others say that it works by reducing the dynamic range of the tracks that would originally have had a high dynamic range.
I hoped that it would only normalize the volume to make all of the tracks seem equally loud. If this was done the full dynamic range (and thus the sound quality) of each track would be kept intact and it would simply balance the volume levels by reducing the volume of the tracks that have already had their dynamic range compressed.
So I decided to put it to the test myself by using the dynamic range meter in Foobar and comparing a track played via Spotify twice. Once with the 'Set the same volume level for all tracks' turned on and once with it turned off.
The one on the left is the result with it turned on and the one on the right is with it turned off.
A very disappointing result Spotify! They're reducing the dynamic range (and thus sound quality) of their music.
This may not seem like a big issue to most people but I think that Spotify have missed a chance here to put an end to the loudness wars once and for all. A bold statement you may think? Well think about it this way. Spotify and other streaming services have become the most popular way to listen to music right? Well, if they were to make all of the tracks play at the same volume by implementing normalization of the tracks this would allow their full dynamic range (and thus sound quality) to be kept intact.
All of the music would still play at the same average volume level like it already does. The only difference would be that the sound quality inadequacies of the dynamically compressed tracks would be obvious to hear when compared to music that has more dynamic range.
As we all know the loudness wars were started by record companies wanting their music to jump out at you by reducing its dynamic range to make it seem louder. However if everything was played at the same average volume by applying normalization this tactic would no longer work. Quite the opposite, they would now be motivated to make their music stand out by improving the sound quality instead by allowing music to be made with its full dynamic range still intact.
Spotify could still keep the existing dynamic range compression option available for people who want to use it because it can come in useful when listening to music in a loud environment. But they should also give a normalization option for people who want to listen to music that offers the best possible sound quality with a full dynamic range.
If enough people read this and spread the word to push Spotify (and other streaming services) to normalize the volume levels rather than dynamically compressing them we could put an end to the loudness war.
What do you think?
andyjm said:Steve, it is not clear to me at all what the foobar DR measure actually measures. It certainly isn't dynamic range in the 'engineering' sense.
Do you know what it measures? If not, I would hesitate to reach any conclusions about what spotify are doing on the basis of the foobar results.
TrevC said:Setting the same volume level for all tracks means reducing the dynamic range. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to do. They would need to store the peak level for every track and apply attenuation appropriately according to that level, an impossible task. I think it works pretty well and they have it pretty much spot on. It's certainly better than that used on radio.
steve_1979 said:TrevC said:Setting the same volume level for all tracks means reducing the dynamic range. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to do. They would need to store the peak level for every track and apply attenuation appropriately according to that level, an impossible task. I think it works pretty well and they have it pretty much spot on. It's certainly better than that used on radio.
Although the dynamic range reduction performed by Spotify is more subtly applied than when it's done on the radio the difference when listening to the two versions of this song when played at the same apparent volume is still easily noticable.
Reducing the dynamic range of a track sucks the life out of the music. It feels less dynamic! Any this is exactly the effect that I can hear when comparing the two versions of this track when played back at the same apparent volume level.
TrevC said:steve_1979 said:TrevC said:Setting the same volume level for all tracks means reducing the dynamic range. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to do. They would need to store the peak level for every track and apply attenuation appropriately according to that level, an impossible task. I think it works pretty well and they have it pretty much spot on. It's certainly better than that used on radio.
Although the dynamic range reduction performed by Spotify is more subtly applied than when it's done on the radio the difference when listening to the two versions of this song when played at the same apparent volume is still easily noticable.
Reducing the dynamic range of a track sucks the life out of the music. It feels less dynamic! Any this is exactly the effect that I can hear when comparing the two versions of this track when played back at the same apparent volume level.
Auto volume levelling is always going to be a compromise, so why not simply turn it off for serious listening? It's very handy for playing a list for background music and generally works just fine but, of course, certain records will catch it out. There's no way of avoiding that.
TrevC said:Auto volume levelling is always going to be a compromise,
TrevC said:so why not simply turn it off for serious listening? It's very handy for playing a list for background music and generally works just fine but, of course, certain records will catch it out. There's no way of avoiding that.
fr0g said:By the way I was pretty sure DR for a CD/track was essentially the difference between the average and the maximum sound level.
unsleepable said:I'm just not sure that it would be possible to normalize such a vast music collection—within a usable dynamic range for most people—without recurring to some compression too.
unsleepable said:If it was me, I would never implement such an option as you'd like to have—being able to choose between normalization, compression and raw volume. It's just not relevant to the majority of people and would only serve to confuse most users. Many people would select normalization thinking that that would give them the best sound quality, only to end up enjoying their music less.
Your proposition would make the most sense if Spotify decided to make available a premium service with uncompressed and hi-res music, definitely.
steve_1979 said:Why not? The volume level would always be the same its just that some music would sound more dynamic (which is a good thing).
TrevC said:Setting the same volume level for all tracks means reducing the dynamic range. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to do. They would need to store the peak level for every track and apply attenuation appropriately according to that level, an impossible task. I think it works pretty well and they have it pretty much spot on. It's certainly better than that used on radio.
unsleepable said:...And it would be equally pointless to double their necessary storage space.
unsleepable said:• The usable dynamic range. In a sufficiently advanced hi-fi setup, with enough preamp gain and very low background noise, you can take the signal down quite a bit, and then raise the volume and obtain good sound, and loud music. But the average system in which Spotify plays does probably not have these properties, so I guess the target dynamic range within which to normalise audio must not be indefinitely ample.