Speaker placement / bass pocket?

[davedotco]

I find treatment beyond normal furnishing to be rarely necessary.

But this depends on the size of the room. This is with the mic set well into the room away from the back wall. Do you think you could fix this with some furnishings?

I understand what you are getting at but it is my view that you do not, in most cases have to fix anything.

All rooms have a different response, a different sound, it is easy to hear. But in your own room the ear adjusts and sounds in that room become normal. I have already said that there may be some rooms where treatment can be helpful but in most cases I do not find it is necessary.

Then again, as I have explained in other context, I do not find the way systems alter from room to room that much of an issue, as I have said often enough these are 'presentational' issues that I find have little effect on the 'quality' of the music reproduction.

Everything is in context and I agree when it comes to your own listening pleasure how much you treat / don't treat your room is up to personal preferences. I think however for people new to room acoustics understanding what can be fixed readily and easily i.e. flutter echo, back wall reflections etc and what this means to your room environment. I am sure there are plenty of people who 'put up' with certain aspects of their listening expierence because they do not realise this

Fair comment.

Whilst I have a method that works well in many situations I appreciate that a more scientific approach could be of great benefit.

Your point of 'what can readily be fixed and easily' is of great interest to me. If it does not compromise your commercial position, some pointers in this particular area would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.........

 

[sheggs]

I mean with treatments (after moving the listening positions, monitor set up etc)

 

[MakkaPakka]

Have you considered measuring your room?

All I did was spend £14 on this and ran it into my computer's line in and used a free software program called Room EQ Wizard.:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-633937-Sound-Level-Meter/dp/B0015NSTLI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393246304&sr=8-1&keywords=spl+meter

This very inexpensive setup will be fine for understanding what (if any) bass problems you might have.

 

[davedotco]

Have you considered measuring your room?

All I did was spend £14 on this and ran it into my computer's line in and used a free software program called Room EQ Wizard.:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-633937-Sound-Level-Meter/dp/B0015NSTLI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393246304&sr=8-1&keywords=spl+meter

This very inexpensive setup will be fine for understanding what (if any) bass problems you might have.

The bass response in my current room is quite reasonable, the percieved boost when sitting back against the wall is entirely predictable and manageable. Frequency response variation do not bother me that much, I am more sensitive to overlong reverb and uncontrolled bass.

Fortunately I am usually able to control these issues sufficiently to keep by system sounding good in a 'normal' environment. I have experience of treated rooms and heavily EQed speakers and these are not at all nice to my ears.

Hence my question about 'simple' techniques for managing flutter echo and, to a lesser extent, reverb time.

 

[MakkaPakka]

dfsdfsdfsd

worst forum software ever - everything triggers spam expect that.

 

[sheggs]

Happy to help anyone who needs their results interpreting also

 

[sheggs]

Have you considered measuring your room?

All I did was spend £14 on this and ran it into my computer's line in and used a free software program called Room EQ Wizard.:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-633937-Sound-Level-Meter/dp/B0015NSTLI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393246304&sr=8-1&keywords=spl+meter

This very inexpensive setup will be fine for understanding what (if any) bass problems you might have.

The bass response in my current room is quite reasonable, the percieved boost when sitting back against the wall is entirely predictable and manageable. Frequency response variation do not bother me that much, I am more sensitive to overlong reverb and uncontrolled bass.

Fortunately I am usually able to control these issues sufficiently to keep by system sounding good in a 'normal' environment. I have experience of treated rooms and heavily EQed speakers and these are not at all nice to my ears.

Hence my question about 'simple' techniques for managing flutter echo and, to a lesser extent, reverb time.

Flutter echo is caused by two flat parallel surafaces opposite each other. so put something that will absorb in the way - i.e rugs when it is created between the floor and ceiling and it will cut this down. If you are every building your room from scratch a 12 degree angle between the walls will actually stop this happening

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Reminds me of 'If I had a crooked house .....'

My (already boringly documented) situation found that whilst bass was light in the listening positions (more so in one of 2 positions), if I moved to the far end of the room the bass vibrated my socks off. I found modest bass traps removed my end of room boom and sorted the listening position. In many ways my room is a poor layout in acoustic terms so my problems were to be expected but I find room treatment, though modest, gives a much better solution (sound) than EQ at the amp.

As I have suggested many times - throw some 4-6inch rockwell around (not literally cuz it tends to itch) and then you know what works and you can buy some retail kit. Beware cheap, ebay acoustic magic tiles maybe!

 

[davedotco]

Have you considered measuring your room?

All I did was spend £14 on this and ran it into my computer's line in and used a free software program called Room EQ Wizard.:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-633937-Sound-Level-Meter/dp/B0015NSTLI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393246304&sr=8-1&keywords=spl+meter

This very inexpensive setup will be fine for understanding what (if any) bass problems you might have.

The bass response in my current room is quite reasonable, the percieved boost when sitting back against the wall is entirely predictable and manageable. Frequency response variation do not bother me that much, I am more sensitive to overlong reverb and uncontrolled bass.

Fortunately I am usually able to control these issues sufficiently to keep by system sounding good in a 'normal' environment. I have experience of treated rooms and heavily EQed speakers and these are not at all nice to my ears.

Hence my question about 'simple' techniques for managing flutter echo and, to a lesser extent, reverb time.

Flutter echo is caused by two flat parallel surafaces opposite each other. so put something that will absorb in the way - i.e rugs when it is created between the floor and ceiling and it will cut this down. If you are every building your room from scratch a 12 degree angle between the walls will actually stop this happening

In this particular room I have a lot of parallel hard surfaces including marble floors. Fortunately the room has several openings into other areas and is quite large, maximum dimensions being around 27 x 17 ft. The hi-fi is used in a sitting area that is grouped around two large sofas, though the other furniture is pretty hard. The curtains make a big difference which is fine later in the evening but of minimal use during the day.

The idea of rugs or panels or anything else on the walls will not be acceptable, even though I am sure they would work. This is by far the poorest room that I have ever had with regards to hi-fi, compounded by the fact that my ribbon hybrid speakers are dipoles above about 3khz.

As I said above, I limit these effects by setting up and sitting close to the speakers which works to a degree, but if I want to play loud I need to invite at least a dozen or so people round to provide the required damping/absorption.

 

[MakkaPakka]

Have you seen the art panels - not cheap but I imagine they could look very good with the right designs.

http://gikacoustics.co.uk/product/gik-artpanel-acoustic-panels/

I can't see how there can be any solution other than putting 'stuff' in front of the walls to break up sound. Plants will help a little bit.

 

[sheggs]

Have you considered measuring your room?

All I did was spend £14 on this and ran it into my computer's line in and used a free software program called Room EQ Wizard.:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-633937-Sound-Level-Meter/dp/B0015NSTLI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393246304&sr=8-1&keywords=spl+meter

This very inexpensive setup will be fine for understanding what (if any) bass problems you might have.

The bass response in my current room is quite reasonable, the percieved boost when sitting back against the wall is entirely predictable and manageable. Frequency response variation do not bother me that much, I am more sensitive to overlong reverb and uncontrolled bass.

Fortunately I am usually able to control these issues sufficiently to keep by system sounding good in a 'normal' environment. I have experience of treated rooms and heavily EQed speakers and these are not at all nice to my ears.

Hence my question about 'simple' techniques for managing flutter echo and, to a lesser extent, reverb time.

Flutter echo is caused by two flat parallel surafaces opposite each other. so put something that will absorb in the way - i.e rugs when it is created between the floor and ceiling and it will cut this down. If you are every building your room from scratch a 12 degree angle between the walls will actually stop this happening

In this particular room I have a lot of parallel hard surfaces including marble floors. Fortunately the room has several openings into other areas and is quite large, maximum dimensions being around 27 x 17 ft. The hi-fi is used in a sitting area that is grouped around two large sofas, though the other furniture is pretty hard. The curtains make a big difference which is fine later in the evening but of minimal use during the day.

The idea of rugs or panels or anything else on the walls will not be acceptable, even though I am sure they would work. This is by far the poorest room that I have ever had with regards to hi-fi, compounded by the fact that my ribbon hybrid speakers are dipoles above about 3khz.

As I said above, I limit these effects by setting up and sitting close to the speakers which works to a degree, but if I want to play loud I need to invite at least a dozen or so people round to provide the required damping/absorption.

People do provide some excellent room treatment :rockout:

 

[davedotco]

People do provide some excellent room treatment :rockout:

Quite so, when I was on the road I rarely bothered doing much with the FOH system during souncheck/technicals. Just checked that we were set up correctly and that everything was working as it should. Spent most of the time getting the stage sound right and playing around with the miking.

Used to run a short intro tape to get the balance right just before the band took to the stage, pointless trying to do it in an empty venue.

 

[paddyb]

So I think I need to experiment with some bass traps behind the right hand speaker and possibly behind the wall where I sit and at the back of the alcove where I also sit.

Would using pillows, blankets etc be good to start with?

I'm not stalking you but I think you've had these a month , so there are as run in as can be , I'd go back to 8 feet , no toe in and some "light" speaker stands , get rid of the pile of books , millions of years ago I got a pair of Royals and blue tacked them to the pair of heavy actama stands I'd used with my Castle Durham 900's , the stands killed them , they where dead went back and talked it over and and was given some light stands the dealer had demoed them they came alive .

So get them back to the triangle , get them off the books and dont toe them in , then move them about abit closer to the wall or father away , that can make a massive differance

James

Yes, I think WHF need a separate forum section just for me!

One of the reason this has gone on for so long is that I've also moved house, so new equipment in a new home, not to mention 101 other DIY jobs that need doing, bits of furniture etc that need to be purchased, plus I've been away with work a lot, so times limited for all this experimentation.

I haven't got around to buying stands yet, partly because I noticed the issue in this thread and was wondering about the height of the stands, how this might effect it etc, and partly as I'm looking for good ones second hand.

So light stands you say, any recommendations? The speakers are quite large so they would still need a large base and top plate for stability? I like the idea of ones that can be filled, as it give the option of trying light / heavy options. Others have recommended Atacama Nexus 6?

I'll try and put the speakers further apart in conjunction with base trap experiments, but how I have them at the moment at 6.5ft has worked quite well now I've had more of a listen, but would like a wider soundstage if possible. I could possibly widen the LH speaker and shift my listening position (and the TV in between them) slightly, but there's not a lot of room for manoeuvre. They are not toed in, I did try with the RH speakers, but it didn't make any difference. I've got them 30cm from the wall, which seems to work well.

I'll try and get some photo's of the room up by tomorrow as that will give a much clearer picture of my set up.

Thanks everyone for your help so far.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Elsewhere here I outlined my own experiments. If you can source a bale of rockwell 2in or 4in this will beat pillows/blankets. Best £20 Ive ever spent - always useful for loft insulation if u dont wish to use it permanently. I found behind the fronts (in the corners) 4-6in thick and similarly on the back wall corners worked for me. Directly behind my setee of little use probably because the bulky settee makes a decent absorber. I am no expert and I am sure I could improve things further but I am pleased that my efforts were very worthwhile. You may be able to hide some other traps dependant on furniture etc. A general rule is to cover tri-corners first and then other corners where walls meet at roght angles. Ofcourse this is more appropriate for a studio than a lounge! Also first reflection points could be considered, though in my case that is a window/curtains and an open area - hence impossible. My first post was entitled '... compromise ....' and I guess thats where we all end up.

Good luck. Post pics. Keep us informed. :cheers:

 

[paddyb]

Some photo's as promised. The speakers are on some strange stands found in a charity shop, with books to bring them up to right height (about 55cm for me when slumped on the low slung sofa) I think they are deigned to go with big disco speakers. For scale, thats a 40inch TV and you can see my MCR603 ontop of my vinyl collection.

My listening position is the end of the sofa with the pouffe n front of it and the outside windows to the right (when sitting). The "bass pocket" is at the back of the room where my office chair is.

So far moving the RH speaker further away from the corner (it was never right up agsainst the corner) has helped with bass at my prefered listening position, but I'd like to widen the soundstage a bit. The LH speaker can be moved a little, but ideally the TV should be bang in the middle of the two and opposite the end of the sofa. I'm concerened about moving the speaker to close to the passage way as it needs to be away from the wall and is just asking to be knocked over if it moves by much. Sofa can't be moved by much because of doorway and a book case that going to go the other side of it.

Would welcome any suggestions.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

And I thought I had problems. :roll:

Without making a kinda false wall behind the tv wall and maybe setee, I am at a loss for suggestions. Hopefully the acoustic experts will chip in.

 

[MakkaPakka]

It's hard to work things out from the pictures but I would probably be moving the speakers right back to the wall and possibly putting some bass traps behind them. I would look to shift them over to the left a bit to try and get them as close to possible as equal from the side walls (symmetry being important) - might be helpful to toe them in a bit.

My preference however would always be to measure the room and keep tweaking and see what differences it makes then start carefully adding treatment. I would say you shouldn't need much treatment in that room on account of the fact your speakers will have a good amount of space to breathe - maybe just behind your head and the speakers. A rug should be on the list as a priority.