Speaker cables for Dali Zensor 3

[drummerman]

Definitely not advisable to mix and match, especially on the same run, and I would always avoid joining pieces together.

I've just bought this, it's very cheap, so I'm not expecting much, but I'll let you know after I receive and fit it, whether it's any good.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SPEAKER-CABLE-2X-4MM-20M-THICK-LOUD-SUPER-QUALITY-OXYGEN-FREE-COPPER-/121007399255?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item1c2c9a6157

I received this cheap cable, but was quite disappointed as it was not quite as described; very thin cheap looking cable. I didn't expect much, and I didn't get much, but at £5.99, it was worth a punt I suppose.

I can highly recommend:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CASPEAK79.html

No nonsense, good quality, reasonably priced. TLC are electrical factors and there is no 'audiofool' markup.

To be honest, that is not a cable I would buy unless I'd use some cheap micro.

It looks subjectively cheap and PVC is not an ideal dielectric. The cable looks like the copper is singulary insulated with PVC.

Best spend a little bit more and get some high purity copper (single crystal), perhaps silver coated copper (silver is a better conductor, resulting in less high frequency loss as these are usually carried at the outer edge of the conductor/s rather than sounding 'bright' as so often quoted).

Go for a better insulator material such as PTFE or VandenHulls own, including Teflon.

I know the skeptics will always say any old wire will do but imho a decent core of good quality copper and the above insulators will be a good start and need'nt cost the earth.

Had I to buy a speaker cable I would go for Van den Hulls CS122 Hybrid for a decent mid priced system though it would be overkill for the OP's.

Something like Cable Talks 3 http://www.custom-cable.co.uk/talk-3-speaker-cable-per-metre.html would probably totally suffice and still not cost a lot.

Regards

 

[andyjm]

Definitely not advisable to mix and match, especially on the same run, and I would always avoid joining pieces together.

I've just bought this, it's very cheap, so I'm not expecting much, but I'll let you know after I receive and fit it, whether it's any good.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SPEAKER-CABLE-2X-4MM-20M-THICK-LOUD-SUPER-QUALITY-OXYGEN-FREE-COPPER-/121007399255?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item1c2c9a6157

I received this cheap cable, but was quite disappointed as it was not quite as described; very thin cheap looking cable. I didn't expect much, and I didn't get much, but at £5.99, it was worth a punt I suppose.

I can highly recommend:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CASPEAK79.html

No nonsense, good quality, reasonably priced. TLC are electrical factors and there is no 'audiofool' markup.

To be honest, that is not a cable I would buy unless I'd use some cheap micro.

It looks subjectively cheap and PVC is not an ideal dielectric. The cable looks like the copper is singulary insulated with PVC.

Best spend a little bit more and get some high purity copper (single crystal), perhaps silver coated copper (silver is a better conductor, resulting in less high frequency loss as these are usually carried at the outer edge of the conductor/s rather than sounding 'bright' as so often quoted).

Go for a better insulator material such as PTFE or VandenHulls own, including Teflon.

I know the skeptics will always say any old wire will do but imho a decent core of good quality copper and the above insulators will be a good start and need'nt cost the earth.

Had I to buy a speaker cable I would go for Van den Hulls CS122 Hybrid for a decent mid priced system though it would be overkill for the OP's.

Something like Cable Talks 3 http://www.custom-cable.co.uk/talk-3-speaker-cable-per-metre.html would probably totally suffice and still not cost a lot.

Regards

Ahh, the old pseudo science post.

The cable I linked to is fine. Feel free to spend more if you wish.

 

[drummerman]

Ahh, the old pseudo science post.

The cable I linked to is fine. Feel free to spend more if you wish.

Lovely, thank you.

regards

 

[andyjm]

Ahh, the old pseudo science post.

The cable I linked to is fine. Feel free to spend more if you wish.

Lovely, thank you.

regards

Drummer,

Didn't want to seem trite, but the problem with your post, like much of the marketing around cables, is that engineering arguments are used out of context without the figures to back them up - hiding the fact that the effects mentioned are irrelevant at audio frequencies in a speaker cable system.

Amplifiers have a low output impedance, of the order of 0.1ohm, speakers 8ohms. It takes a lot of other 'stuff' to make a difference to the signal in such a low impedance system. The main factor is cable resistance, everything else can be ignored in all but extreme implementations.

Skin effect? sure, but at audio frequencies irrelevant.

Silver plating? sure, but does that 20 micron coating really make a difference when you do the math in relation to conductor thickness?

Non linear dielectric material? OK, but in the context of a low impedance speaker cable system, negligable.

See if you can find a sudy that calculates the dB impact of each of the effects you mention at audio frequencies for speaker cables. Absent that, I am afraid that this is just marketing noise.

 

[hifikrazy]

Drummer,

Didn't want to seem trite, but the problem with your post, like much of the marketing around cables, is that engineering arguments are used out of context without the figures to back them up - hiding the fact that the effects mentioned are irrelevant at audio frequencies in a speaker cable system.

Amplifiers have a low output impedance, of the order of 0.1ohm, speakers 8ohms. It takes a lot of other 'stuff' to make a difference to the signal in such a low impedance system. The main factor is cable resistance, everything else can be ignored in all but extreme implementations.

Skin effect? sure, but at audio frequencies irrelevant.

Silver plating? sure, but does that 20 micron coating really make a difference when you do the math in relation to conductor thickness?

Non linear dielectric material? OK, but in the context of a low impedance speaker cable system, negligable.

See if you can find a sudy that calculates the dB impact of each of the effects you mention at audio frequencies for speaker cables. Absent that, I am afraid that this is just marketing noise.

Ahh, the old you can't hear what you can't measure post

 

[andyjm]

Drummer,

Didn't want to seem trite, but the problem with your post, like much of the marketing around cables, is that engineering arguments are used out of context without the figures to back them up - hiding the fact that the effects mentioned are irrelevant at audio frequencies in a speaker cable system.

Amplifiers have a low output impedance, of the order of 0.1ohm, speakers 8ohms. It takes a lot of other 'stuff' to make a difference to the signal in such a low impedance system. The main factor is cable resistance, everything else can be ignored in all but extreme implementations.

Skin effect? sure, but at audio frequencies irrelevant.

Silver plating? sure, but does that 20 micron coating really make a difference when you do the math in relation to conductor thickness?

Non linear dielectric material? OK, but in the context of a low impedance speaker cable system, negligable.

See if you can find a sudy that calculates the dB impact of each of the effects you mention at audio frequencies for speaker cables. Absent that, I am afraid that this is just marketing noise.

Ahh, the old you can't hear what you can't measure post

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[drummerman]

Drummer,

Didn't want to seem trite, but the problem with your post, like much of the marketing around cables, is that engineering arguments are used out of context without the figures to back them up - hiding the fact that the effects mentioned are irrelevant at audio frequencies in a speaker cable system.

Morning. No problem

You are right. Audible differences by using different cables is minute (some say inaudible) in context of other other variations inherent in different components/systems. Even an analogue volume pot can have more influence on frequency response than cables. However, I personally have no doubt that speaker cables can have an adverse impact on sound (its never positive as a cable can't possibly 'add' anything other than introducing distortion in form of interference. However, thats another lengthy issue and shielding speaker cable is generally not a good idea.

Long story short, I personally think it is possible to fine tune a system with careful choice of speaker cabling (and interconnects), though I'd go as far as saying that digital interconnect differences are non-existent even though my mind did probably play tricks on me when I was invited to a WHS&V group test on just those and thought I did hear differences (which incidentally where almost totally the opposite of what my fellow group was thinking).

As to amplifier output impedance, they vary wildly so it is likely that even just that will influence the result with differing cables on occasions.

Gauge is the single most important thing but who's to say that the culmination of other factors such as the dielectric, plating (or not), termination etc etc does not play a role too. - I personally think it does make a difference, slight as it may be. Would I be able to repeatedly identify cables in controlled blind testing ... ? Not so sure on that one.

regards

 

[hifikrazy]

Call me delusional (which I'm sure some will) but I can clearly hear differences in speaker cables, interconnects and power cords. So I agree with you Drummerman but I wouldn't waste any effort trying to convince these people who don't seem to have much of a life other than to stalk hifi forms waiting to pounce on any cable thread that allows them to use the words:

(a) pseudo science

(b) snake oil

(c) placebo

(d) marketing conspiracy

What amazes me is their stamina. They don't seem to tire of beating the same drum over and over again even when the audience just ain't interested in their drum performance. (P.S. - No reference to you, Drummerman)

 

[cheeseboy]

Call me delusional (which I'm sure some will) but I can clearly hear differences in speaker cables, interconnects and power cords. So I agree with you Drummerman but I wouldn't waste any effort trying to convince these people who don't seem to have much of a life other than to stalk hifi forms waiting to pounce on any cable thread that allows them to use the words:

(a) pseudo science

(b) snake oil

(c) placebo

(d) marketing conspiracy

What amazes me is their stamina. They don't seem to tire of beating the same drum over and over again even when the audience just ain't interested in their drum performance. (P.S. - No reference to you, Drummerman)

pot

kettle

black

??

 

[hifikrazy]

oooh, and here come the other band members. How predictable

 

[cheeseboy]

oooh, and here come the other band members. How predictable

wooosh to irony.... :rofl:

 

[pete321]

I replaced Chord Odyssey with Avondale Black Link. Produces a lively detailed sound but never strays into harshness as the Odyssey did in my system. I did try the Blacklink against Van Damme, Van Damme good for it's price but produced a dull sound by comparison to the Blacklink.

Can't find this on sale anywhere?

it's only available from Avondale Audio (01246 200096) or sometimes on that auction site.

 

[davedotco]

Definitely not advisable to mix and match, especially on the same run, and I would always avoid joining pieces together.

I've just bought this, it's very cheap, so I'm not expecting much, but I'll let you know after I receive and fit it, whether it's any good.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SPEAKER-CABLE-2X-4MM-20M-THICK-LOUD-SUPER-QUALITY-OXYGEN-FREE-COPPER-/121007399255?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item1c2c9a6157

I received this cheap cable, but was quite disappointed as it was not quite as described; very thin cheap looking cable. I didn't expect much, and I didn't get much, but at £5.99, it was worth a punt I suppose.

I can highly recommend:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CASPEAK79.html

No nonsense, good quality, reasonably priced. TLC are electrical factors and there is no 'audiofool' markup.

To be honest, that is not a cable I would buy unless I'd use some cheap micro.

It looks subjectively cheap and PVC is not an ideal dielectric. The cable looks like the copper is singulary insulated with PVC.

Best spend a little bit more and get some high purity copper (single crystal), perhaps silver coated copper (silver is a better conductor, resulting in less high frequency loss as these are usually carried at the outer edge of the conductor/s rather than sounding 'bright' as so often quoted).

Go for a better insulator material such as PTFE or VandenHulls own, including Teflon.

I know the skeptics will always say any old wire will do but imho a decent core of good quality copper and the above insulators will be a good start and need'nt cost the earth.

Had I to buy a speaker cable I would go for Van den Hulls CS122 Hybrid for a decent mid priced system though it would be overkill for the OP's.

Something like Cable Talks 3 http://www.custom-cable.co.uk/talk-3-speaker-cable-per-metre.html would probably totally suffice and still not cost a lot.

Regards

Ahh, the old pseudo science post.

The cable I linked to is fine. Feel free to spend more if you wish.

We all know that any current flowing in a conducter produces an electric field in the material surrounding the conductor (think intererence from mains cable to signal cable).

The surrounding material, be it air or insulation material (more correctly called a dielectric) will have it's own impedence characteristics that will have a marked effect on the way the signal in the conductor 'modulates' the surrounding electromagnetic field.

If the impedence characteristics of the surrounding dialectric is not linear, it can have a marked effect on the phase response of the signal carrying condutor causing frequency dependent time delay in the music signal, which may be audible in a hi resolution playback system.

(Andyjm........ That's how you 'do' a pseudo science post......... :shame

 

[davedotco]

Bu**er.

Tried to hide the final line of the last post but the wimpy site software would not let me....... :doh:

 

[paddyb]

Just going back to the psudo sciene, snake oil etc for a moment, if aluminium is a better conductor than copper, does that mean that CCA is actually a better speaker cable material than pure copper?

 

[andyjm]

Aluminium is a better conductor by weight than copper, silver is a better conductor by volume than copper.

Its all a moot point, a thicker cable is a better conductor than a thinner cable. If you are worried about the resistance of your cable, just buy a thicker one.

 

[paddyb]

Well, after all that, I decided I want to sort this out this weekend. There wasn't time to order anything from ebay/amazon, so I popped into town to see what I could find locally. Maplin had a reel of cable that was normally £20 reduced to £13 I think, but I didn't like the look of it, very thin wire. So I went into good old Richer Sounds and after toying with the £4.50 a meter silver covered copper Cambridge Audio cable, which would have set me back £72 for the length I've decided I need, I went instead for the Synphony 400, which is what i've had before. They let me put a £10 off VIP club voucher towards it. They didn't have any snake oil to dip them in, but did chuck in a pair of Sennheiser headphones. So I came away with 16 meters of cable for just under £30. I got longer lengths so that it would comforably reach where I have the speakers with both sides the same length with some to spare to accomodate any room changes etc.

Thanks for everyones input on this, carry on the discussiojn in this thread if you like, I think this will be a contentious issue.