Sound terms explanation

[Vladimir]

My interpretation from most of these terms is just to describe the sound when it deviates from neutral, uncoloured sound.

Except you now need to define neutral uncoloured sound which again is a subjective comment?

Everyone has different likes/dislikes about sound reproduction. But

Music is music or instruments should sound like real instruments and not a watered down or over exaggerated version of it.

No matter what you or I think, a piano or a violin should sound what it sounds like.

So if you listened to a violin in your living space, im sure there would be times that the hi frequency could be a little harsh on the ears. Now a neutral sound on a sound system will try to give you that also.

In the same way a warm system will try avoid giving you that or protects you from that.

Also a overly harsh system would over emphasize this to become unlistenable.

You also get lots of plumming/thickening in the mid range on lots of speakers ive heard.

So the only way is to a-b demo v each other and also listen to a lot of real live music and even then its an opinion but we cant change how real instruments sound.

Then we have room problems, poor speaker design(or wrong speaker for room) and amps that dont provide good quality CLEAN power.

Distortion is the main culprit also

i think it helps if you have been around real instruments then you know whats real and whats not soundwise

Can you really know how Gary Clark Jr's Epiphone Casino Cherry passing through foot peddals, distorting guitar amp and production effects is supposed to sound like? Or how a custom tuned PETROF grand piano sounds like in some cathedral in Estonia. What's the real sound of a Cubase VST Plugin drum machine?

*unknw*

 

[nick8858]

plumming/thickening/unlistenable.....

Still subjective nonesense!

Apart from words what tests and ab comparison have you done. Its not as hard as you think once you know what to listen for. The main culprit being distortion is esay to hear.

When it is subjective nonsense is when reviewers use words like the op has stated to describe cables, racks, power cables and stands. For the basis of selling magazines

I will listen to a system in a hi fi shop and decide what sounds pleasing to me. I cannot quantify that objectively of course and it may differ from someone elses opinion. That is why I take reviews with a pinch of salt. A reviewers opinion can be affected by various things anyway. They may just have got out of the wrong side of the bed that morning. And of course the biggest influence of all is the source material. I always take my own with me. For 2 reasons, some hi fi shops have never heard of classical music which I like, secondly I have a reference with me which may help - not always of course because my living room and the shop are 2 entirely different places but hopefully I may be able to recall something as a comparison. In the end do I like what I hear, and the word here is "I" because no one else on the planet will hear itthe exact same way as I do just as no on else can taste or see exactly as I do. Thus I cannot rely on anyone elses opinion to be swayed in any sort of subjective way. It may be that I always pick systems which sound dreadful to others - I don't have a problem with that at all because its what I hear that matters and no one else can step in my head and experience that. So I stick to my point that all these terms are subjective claptrap

 

[Andrewjvt]

plumming/thickening/unlistenable.....

Still subjective nonesense!

Apart from words what tests and ab comparison have you done. Its not as hard as you think once you know what to listen for. The main culprit being distortion is esay to hear.

When it is subjective nonsense is when reviewers use words like the op has stated to describe cables, racks, power cables and stands. For the basis of selling magazines

I will listen to a system in a hi fi shop and decide what sounds pleasing to me. I cannot quantify that objectively of course and it may differ from someone elses opinion. That is why I take reviews with a pinch of salt. A reviewers opinion can be affected by various things anyway. They may just have got out of the wrong side of the bed that morning. And of course the biggest influence of all is the source material. I always take my own with me. For 2 reasons, some hi fi shops have never heard of classical music which I like, secondly I have a reference with me which may help - not always of course because my living room and the shop are 2 entirely different places but hopefully I may be able to recall something as a comparison. In the end do I like what I hear, and the word here is "I" because no one else on the planet will hear itthe exact same way as I do just as no on else can taste or see exactly as I do. Thus I cannot rely on anyone elses opinion to be swayed in any sort of subjective way. It may be that I always pick systems which sound dreadful to others - I don't have a problem with that at all because its what I hear that matters and no one else can step in my head and experience that. So I stick to my point that all these terms are subjective claptrap

That is exactly the point.
If it sounds good to you then its good and all the other stuff does not matter one bit.

But distortion can be heard quite easily- especially amps that harden up when pushed a little too far etc.

Listening to a sound system in isolation and enjoying it is totally different to comparing different sound systems at same time/room etc to see which one is more natural/real etc

 

[Vladimir]

Distortion can be heard and wrongly interpreted as richness, better timber in LF, louder, warmer, smoother...

 

[Andrewjvt]

Distortion can be heard and wrongly interpreted as richness, better timber in LF, louder, warmer, smoother... 

Its a good point and i totally agree with what youve said about distortion interpreted as richness/warm etc.

Ive not noticed many products until either listening to my own equipment over a long time and suddenly realizing or directly comparing different speakers/amps at the same time and constantly swapping between.

Also the point about different effects on mikes/pedals etc its impossible to tell there.

But even on these recordings ive noticed a difference on comparisons but certain simple music is much better.

Ive noticed that the more neutral non distorted equipment can sound like something is duller or lacks excitement (at first listen)
Because it adds nothing to the mix. Thats why imo a lot of people like products that have a little distortion and also why they impress in the demo room over the better made stuff sometimes.

 

[nick8858]

Vladimir wrote:
Distortion can be heard and wrongly interpreted as richness, better timber in LF, louder, warmer, smoother...

A totally meaningless subjective comment with respect. Here we go again, timbre, warm, smooth, what are we talking about here a capuccino coffee?

Using words like this in reviews is utterly pointless. Go listen to it like it or dislike it and buy it or don't buy it. A review may guide you to something to try but on its own when it containes language like this it is utterly useless and tells you nothing

 

[Vladimir]

On the Harbeth forum Alan posted some flac recordings of classical music (string concertos IIRC), one original and one with a touch of distortion added (amp mildly clipping). And guess which one sounded better to everyone?

 

[Andrewjvt]

Vladimir wrote:

Distortion can be heard and wrongly interpreted as richness, better timber in LF, louder, warmer, smoother... 

A totally meaningless subjective comment with respect. Here we go again, timbre, warm, smooth, what are we talking about here a capuccino coffee?

Using words like this in reviews is utterly pointless. Go listen to it like it or dislike it and buy it or don't buy it. A review may guide you to something to try but on its own when it containes language like this it is utterly useless and tells you nothing

Reviews are the main culprit here yes they talk a lot of words to entice magazine sales and drive the hifi business.

They also make the gullible think they need the newest latest toy.

Also when a review says it lack excitement it is maybe a good product.

Sterephile is a good magazine to read though as they measure the units they review by different person that actually writes up the review. But still they use those words.

 

[Electro]

Distortion can be heard and wrongly interpreted as richness, better timber in LF, louder, warmer, smoother...

Its a good point and i totally agree with what youve said about distortion interpreted as richness/warm etc.

Ive not noticed many products until either listening to my own equipment over a long time and suddenly realizing or directly comparing different speakers/amps at the same time and constantly swapping between.

Also the point about different effects on mikes/pedals etc its impossible to tell there.

But even on these recordings ive noticed a difference on comparisons but certain simple music is much better.

Ive noticed that the more neutral non distorted equipment can sound like something is duller or lacks excitement (at first listen) Because it adds nothing to the mix. Thats why imo a lot of people like products that have a little distortion and also why they impress in the demo room over the better made stuff sometimes.

I have never ever heard live music at any time sound dull or lack excitement even if the music is badly played so my deduction is that any HiFi system that makes well recorded music sound dull or lifeless is taking something or some part of the music away , sometimes caused by transient distortion. imo of course *smile* .

 

[Andrewjvt]

Distortion can be heard and wrongly interpreted as richness, better timber in LF, louder, warmer, smoother... 

Its a good point and i totally agree with what youve said about distortion interpreted as richness/warm etc.

Ive not noticed many products until either listening to my own equipment over a long time and suddenly realizing or directly comparing different speakers/amps at the same time and constantly swapping between.

Also the point about different effects on mikes/pedals etc its impossible to tell there.

But even on these recordings ive noticed a difference on comparisons but certain simple music is much better.

Ive noticed that the more neutral non distorted equipment can sound like something is duller or lacks excitement (at first listen) Because it adds nothing to the mix. Thats why imo a lot of people like products that have a little distortion and also why they impress in the demo room over the better made stuff sometimes.

I have never ever heard live music at any time sound dull or lack excitement even if the music is badly played so my deduction is that any HiFi system that makes well recorded music sound dull or lifeless is taking something or some part of the music away , sometimes caused by transient distortion. imo of course *smile* .

Youve mis-understood my point or maybe ive explained it bad.

I was talking about a VERY SHORT term difference between an honest neutral amp (that does not add distortion) to an amp that does add some excitablee hf distortion.

Example hegel and cyrus.

For first 5 min the cyrus sounded better and the hegel duller. Now heres the point. The cyrus added hf distortion that soon become apparent and has listener fatigue but the hegel never sounds dull or unexciting.

 

[Vladimir]

*bomb* *bomb* *bomb*

 

[audiventory]

It's a program by McGill University and Harman labs to train preselected group of people (healthy hearing is a requirement) to know what to listen for and be able to detect things like distortion, frequency tonal balance (timbre) etc. Training to know exactly what the OP of this thread is asking about. Yes it exists.

Harman then uses these trained listeners in DBT trials to learn what makes a great sounding loudspeaker without the bias of marketing or aesthetics.

Hearing control is secondary. But it also necessary for catching issues that may be occationally passed standard tests.

Also human perception of many features (harmonic distortions, frequency response deviations, ringing, etc.) is complex. Because there we have "threshould of audibility". These issues may be checked in blind tests only.

 

[Electro]

Distortion can be heard and wrongly interpreted as richness, better timber in LF, louder, warmer, smoother...

Its a good point and i totally agree with what youve said about distortion interpreted as richness/warm etc.

Ive not noticed many products until either listening to my own equipment over a long time and suddenly realizing or directly comparing different speakers/amps at the same time and constantly swapping between.

Also the point about different effects on mikes/pedals etc its impossible to tell there.

But even on these recordings ive noticed a difference on comparisons but certain simple music is much better.

Ive noticed that the more neutral non distorted equipment can sound like something is duller or lacks excitement (at first listen) Because it adds nothing to the mix. Thats why imo a lot of people like products that have a little distortion and also why they impress in the demo room over the better made stuff sometimes.

I have never ever heard live music at any time sound dull or lack excitement even if the music is badly played so my deduction is that any HiFi system that makes well recorded music sound dull or lifeless is taking something or some part of the music away , sometimes caused by transient distortion. imo of course *smile* .

Youve mis-understood my point or maybe ive explained it bad.

I was talking about a VERY SHORT term difference between an honest neutral amp (that does not add distortion) to an amp that does add some excitablee hf distortion.

Example hegel and cyrus.

For first 5 min the cyrus sounded better and the hegel duller. Now heres the point. The cyrus added hf distortion that soon become apparent and has listener fatigue but the hegel never sounds dull or unexciting.

Yes that makes sense, I understand and agree.

 

[Vladimir]

It's a program by McGill University and Harman labs to train preselected group of people (healthy hearing is a requirement) to know what to listen for and be able to detect things like distortion, frequency tonal balance (timbre) etc. Training to know exactly what the OP of this thread is asking about. Yes it exists.
Harman then uses these trained listeners in DBT trials to learn what makes a great sounding loudspeaker without the bias of marketing or aesthetics.

Hearing control is secondary. But it also necessary for catching issues that may be occationally passed standard tests.

Also human perception of many features (harmonic distortions, frequency response deviations, ringing, etc.) is complex. Because there we have "threshould of audibility". These issues may be checked in blind tests only.

Anyone who is overly confident in his hearing and analytical capabilities, please do try the app on Sean Olive's blog (which I linked to). Hearing and discerning some things, as Yuri explained, are hard. I tried it and wasn't walk in the park for me.

 

[Gazzip]

Vladimir wrote:
Distortion can be heard and wrongly interpreted as richness, better timber in LF, louder, warmer, smoother...

A totally meaningless subjective comment with respect. Here we go again, timbre, warm, smooth, what are we talking about here a capuccino coffee?

Using words like this in reviews is utterly pointless. Go listen to it like it or dislike it and buy it or don't buy it. A review may guide you to something to try but on its own when it containes language like this it is utterly useless and tells you nothing

Timbre is about as objective as a word can get when describing musical sound. Just sayin'...