Sony PS3 Slim to BDP-S370 Very Bad Move

[bigboss]

Clare Newsome:

And of course in the US - where the NTSC broadcast standard is 60Hz - you have 120Hz (and multiples of) TVs.

Here in UK, we've a PAL heritage, PAL being 50Hz. Hence 100Hz and multiples of.

Just thought that point was worth making, as many of the facts/figures earlier in this thread have been taken from US sources, so aren't as strictly applicable to UK.

Yes, that is correct. Sorry I forgot to mention that.......it was too late in the night! Thanks Clare!

So that makes the equation more complex, isn't it? So does that mean that unless your TV specifically supports 24Hz, you are likely to notice judder (although most judders are not noticeable)?

EDIT: Just realised that 25 is divisible by 50. So are 24Hz pictures automatically converted to 25Hz? That's the closest you can get.

 

[Clare Newsome]

The best sets for several years have natively supported 24fps as well as 50Hz for UK TV/DVD and 60Hz for NTSC DVD playback.

But Blu-ray aside - which sticks to 24fps - both UK TV and DVD do indeed speed up the frame rate of US TV/movies to 25fps. Which is why (censorship differences aside) the running time of a UK DVD can be a few minutes less than that of its US equivalent.

It's another reason - other than the often superior audio and extras offered - that movie purists bought R1 (US) DVDs rather than the R2 versions: you saw and heard the movie as it should be.

 

[bigboss]

Clare Newsome: you saw and heard the movie as it should be.

In other words, "as the director intended"

 

[Frank Harvey]

That's one thing I'm thankful to Bluray for - running at the correct speed. I always remember having demioinstrated Terminator 2 for years on PAL Laserdisc, and knowing it inside out, I then heard an NTSC copy. Arnies voice was so much lower, as was the engine of his motorbike. I couldn't believe the difference. From that point, it has irritated the pants off me. I hate hearing music in films which I know, and runs so much faster - it just sounds completely wrong.

 

[bigboss]

Clare Newsome:

The best sets for several years have natively supported 24fps as well as 50Hz for UK TV/DVD and 60Hz for NTSC DVD playback.

But Blu-ray aside - which sticks to 24fps - both UK TV and DVD do indeed speed up the frame rate of US TV/movies to 25fps. Which is why (censorship differences aside) the running time of a UK DVD can be a few minutes less than that of its US equivalent.

It's another reason - other than the often superior audio and extras offered - that movie purists bought R1 (US) DVDs rather than the R2 versions: you saw and heard the movie as it should be.

So, is 24Hz more likely to cause judder than, say, 60Hz or is it the conversion that causes judder?

 

[strapped for cash]

And I seem to have diverted the thread wildly from its originally intended purpose, so apologies to the OP!

I thought about the UK 50Hz issue after I posted, though I wasn't aware some US televisions operate at 120Hz, which is enlightening.

I still don't like the phrase "as the director intended", big boss, for the reasons previously stated; but I guess it's not worth chipping away on this particular point. I'll just have to accept this is a term posters will continue to use...

 

[aliEnRIK]

bigboss:Clare Newsome:

The best sets for several years have natively supported 24fps as well as 50Hz for UK TV/DVD and 60Hz for NTSC DVD playback.

But Blu-ray aside - which sticks to 24fps - both UK TV and DVD do indeed speed up the frame rate of US TV/movies to 25fps. Which is why (censorship differences aside) the running time of a UK DVD can be a few minutes less than that of its US equivalent.

It's another reason - other than the often superior audio and extras offered - that movie purists bought R1 (US) DVDs rather than the R2 versions: you saw and heard the movie as it should be.

So, is 24Hz more likely to cause judder than, say, 60Hz or is it the conversion that causes judder?

Both, 24Hz is too slow and so certain panning shots will create judder

Converting to 60Hz means frames dont work out correctly so that in itself can create judder (frame selecting is called 'pulldown' and the judder is referred to as 'telecine judder')

Cinemas show 24Hz at 48Hz (Showing 2 frames exactly the same one after the other ~ though I wouldnt be suprised if some do interpolate etc) as everyone could see 'flicker' otherwise

Due to flicker being visible at 24Hz then tvs must also run at other Hz ranges to do the same (Though ive NEVER seen an actual Hz setting for any tv running in 24Hz mode so no clue WHAT they do)

 

[kinda]

Interesting to hear that cinemas use 24FPS / 48Hz with 2:2 pulldown.

I see ocassional judder on my projector at times with 50 Hz DVDs, which is really just 25FPS with 2:2 pulldown which should be very similar. I haven't got BluRay yet.

I've never noticed judder at the cinema. Is there something abut 24FPS that makes it less prone to judder, (doesn't seem to be the case), is ti something to do with distance to the screen, (does seem to be better further away at home), or have i just not noticed it at the pictures for some reason?

 

[aliEnRIK]

strapped for cash:

The question I don't know the answer to is: if I bitstream audio to the Yamaha (i.e. via the 370), and my receiver therefore decodes HD soundtracks, will this produce noticably better results? Not really fussed about seeing DDHD/DTSHDMA appear on the receiver's display. I just want to make the most of the Yamaha's capabilities.

I can tell you for sure that bitstreaming to my AV8003 via the S370 sounds far better than the PS3 decoding it first

 

[aliEnRIK]

maxflinn:

So your saying all bluray players are equal?

i have read that rik , not saying its what i believe , but lets face it , a bit of googling , weve all done it , and there are many who say blu-ray players barely differ at all ...

ill do my own testing before i say what i think ...

Ive just been reading of a blindtest done on another forum regarding quite a few different bluray players

It seems ALL the people thought that the much pricier denon did in fact have the best picture quality when watching blurays (Even on several repeat tests). The oppo wasnt far behind, sony did quite well, panasonic was last

It seems there most definitely are differences between bluray players

HOWEVER ~ this was tested on a VERY large screen, and everything was connected through a pretty expensive mains conditioner and using top gauge HDMI cables. I also noted that all the bluray players stock mains cables were used except the denon which had a customised cable fitted

The reality is that the average person wouldnt tell much difference in 'real world' conditions (Although of course this is entirely subjective)

All that said, perhaps bluray players use some form of digital filtering, which would mean theyre all different dependant on HOW theyre filtered?

 

[strapped for cash]

aliEnRIK:strapped for cash:

The question I don't know the answer to is: if I bitstream audio to the Yamaha (i.e. via the 370), and my receiver therefore decodes HD soundtracks, will this produce noticably better results? Not really fussed about seeing DDHD/DTSHDMA appear on the receiver's display. I just want to make the most of the Yamaha's capabilities.

I can tell you for sure that bitstreaming to my AV8003 via the S370 sounds far better than the PS3 decoding it first

Cheers for the feedback aliEnRIK.

At some point I'll look to "upgrade" from the PS3 to a dedicated Blu Ray player. For now, available resourses are being channelled into upgrading speakers...

 

[bigboss]

strapped for cash:

I still don't like the phrase "as the director intended", big boss, for the reasons previously stated

Like it or not, even manufacturers use this phrase.

"For a thrilling cinema-feeling at home, you need more than just brilliant colours and the highest contrast possible: like the cinema projector, the television should also be able to show films at their original frame rate of 24 pictures per second.

When watching Blu-ray DiscT films on a NeoPDP TV, the television synchronises its image reproduction rate with the original, precisely rendering the film's true speed - a must-have for experiencing that genuine cinema feeling in the comfort of your living room. In VIERA LCD TVs, every frame is shown 4 times, which increases the 24p signal to 96Hz. So you can enjoy movies at their original frame rate, just as the director intended."

 

[strapped for cash]

bigboss:strapped for cash:

I still don't like the phrase "as the director intended", big boss, for the reasons previously stated

Like it or not, even manufacturers use this phrase.

"For a thrilling cinema-feeling at home, you need more than just brilliant colours and the highest contrast possible: like the cinema projector, the television should also be able to show films at their original frame rate of 24 pictures per second.

When watching Blu-ray DiscT films on a NeoPDP TV, the television synchronises its image reproduction rate with the original, precisely rendering the film's true speed - a must-have for experiencing that genuine cinema feeling in the comfort of your living room. In VIERA LCD TVs, every frame is shown 4 times, which increases the 24p signal to 96Hz. So you can enjoy movies at their original frame rate, just as the director intended."

That's marketing for you! Doesn't mean the statement stands up to scrutiny...

 

[TKratz]

strapped for cash:

That's marketing for you! Doesn't mean the statement stands up to scrutiny...

That's true, but you haven't exactly come up with any hard evidence proving the contrary.

 

[strapped for cash]

TKratz:
strapped for cash:

That's marketing for you! Doesn't mean the statement stands up to scrutiny...

That's true, but you haven't exactly come up with any hard evidence proving the contrary.

Hi TKratz

What exactly would you like in the way of hard evidence?

I was making a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "intent", which is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "the state of a person's mind that directs his or her actions toward a given object".

I'm quibbling over the use of the phrase "as the director intended", which implies that, in all cases, a film director contemplated variable frame rates for his/her film before deciding on 24. As I've stated on many occasions, this simply doesn't happen, because there is no choice. 24fps is the industry standard and to change this would mean changing projector technology in cinemas at considerable outlay.

This is before we even consider the fact that a director is not a neccesarily a technician, which is why a "director of photography" is, in most instances, employed. A the very least, this fact alone complicates matters and demonstrates that the phrase "as the director intended" is at best an oversimplification and at worst inaccurate.

Nevertheless, it's not worth this level of debate; and I'm scolding myself for responding, but just can't help it when challenged...

 

[TKratz]

We will never agree on this one, and we of course do not have to either. But perhaps we should start a new thread really

Just because you do not have a choise doesn't necessarily imply that there is something wrong with the available option. It is not different than a lot of other development and production areas. When developing a new drug you also need to fulfil certain standards. There is nothing wrong in that. You need standards in order to compare results and make sure all equipment can handle the material.

Filmakers and directors are of course aware about this, and therefore applying to the standard is part of the planning and production.

Unless you can show me, that a least a couple of highly recarded directors have at some point questioned the current standard or shared their frustration in this regard I will maintain that you are speculating just as much as I am when stating that 1080p24 is what the director intended. That is the kind of evidence I am talking about.

What on the other hand can never be the director's intention - in my opinion still - is processing of the 1080p24 signal, because this is beond their control.

 

[bigboss]

I think what the term "as the Director intended" means is that if he/she has shot the film on 24p, he/she expects you to watch the film on 24p. Doesn't matter what the available technology is.

 

[Anonymous]

Alienrick>?

I think.. lol

Did you get a chance to do a side by side comparison. with PS3 and this, was it worth the 100.00 or not really?

Nice 1

 

[fayeanddavid]

WishTree:
I have a PS3 Slim which I use primarily as Media Center. I am challenged with of the Fan Noise and decided to go for a dedicated BDP-S370 based upon the reviews. I expected low fan noise, improvement in Picture and Sound Quality as S370 is dedicated for media purposes.

I was excited about the S370 as the reviews are great and I know that it does exactly what I want (with the support for MKV, youtube integration etc). After I plugged S370 the very first annoyance I noticed is that the font quality as well as menu navigation. There is a huge difference between PS3 Menus vs S370. PS3 fonts are smooth and menu transition is extremely fluid where as S370 feels at best mediocre.

Bluray play quality is at par. I did not find any difference but the biggest draw back is the play back of SD content. S370 plays everything in a very patchy way where as PS3 is super fluid. And coming to the final nail in the coffin, SQ is too much desired for. CD playback to MP3 playback, there is some vague hollowness in the sound. I am unable to put in words, but the sound feels depth and feels very hollow.

Regarding the build quality an untrained eye can also notice very soon that S370 is compromised a lot on build.

The best thing I liked is the Youtube integration which is awesome.

I am writing this short experience, to give information for some one on the fence for such a switch or swinging between PS3 or a dedicated player.

I know that there is a price difference between the PS3 slim and S370 but given the varied things a PS3 can do today, I still feel it is a huge bargain.

PS: My only gripe about PS3 slim's fan noise is still valid. Luckily, I can feel / hear it only when I activate Mute so I will learn to live with it and S370 goes back to Amazon (Thank God to Amazon's great return policy)

PPS: When WHF gives 5 stars to a product, I guess it is very tightly tied to the category. In this case may be in sub 200Pound category of BD players this Sony shines very well.

Not read all the thread but would just offer the following;

The S370 is fantastic value for the money, great PQ and SQ

The S370 didn't cost what a PS3 would, I have no experience of the PS3, but for one hundred notes I have Blu Ray, very good Blu Ray, don't need a games console just Blu Ray

Don't need my Blu Ray player to play cds either, that's what a cd player is for..................the S370 can play cds and other mixes but it's primary purpose is Blu Ray play back, which it does with some accomplishment.................. for the price