Smaller amp plus power amps vs. BIG AMP

[admin_exported]

Hi - so I've asked a few queries elsewhere here regards upgrading my Denon AVR4306 and apologise for being a pain but have had another thought I'd love some feedback on…

It has been suggested that a pre / power combo may be better but I don't have the budget to go to the top of the tree so have been looking at the Denon AVC-A1HD or Pioneer LX90 integrated amps. The main reason for going up in terms of spec was for a better stereo sound though some have suggested I may not realise too much more of an improvement in stereo sounds with those amps and that upgrading to the newer AVR4308 plus power amps for the main front channels may be money better spent. Any opinions and / or suggestions for power amps? Is anyone running a setup like this?

 

[Frank Harvey]

The Marantz 8003 pre/power is within your budget if you were still thinking seperate boxes. It is definitely better at driving high quality speakers than the top one box amplifiers/receivers.

 

[Anonymous]

Must be an echo in here...!

Anyway, how you going with this mate ? It would be interesting to test out the stereo performance, side by side, something like the Marantz Pre/Pro with something like the Pioneer and it's internal ICE amps...

The only bad thing I'm hearing about the Marantz is you don't seem to be able to use the EQ on the newer HD codecs - well, you can for some of them, but not all - but this may not be a factor depending on your use of the EQ, if at all....I think the jury is still out on the video scaler used in the AV8003, but that may not be an issue for you, besides, you have the Pioneer plasma now to handle that !

EQ on, off, tens of different sound modes, multitudes of changeable parameters and infinite combinations of all of them, it all gets a bit much sometimes....yes, there's pure direct etc, but I'm not so sure......I'm going to go a much more simple route with Naim's approach, building the AV side 'around' the stereo, so separate amps and AV processor(audio only)...admittedly thats a jump in price point though.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah, loads to think on and not much further forward but I'm in no rush anyway - it will be a couple of months so I'll check out the reviews of the integrated amps in the next issue and will look around for somewhere to check out the Marantz pair - the only thing is, I've heard that Marantz are a little laid back which I'm not really looking for. That said, I havent been over-impressed with the stereo side of the 4306 I currently have - I'm just not sure whether its the whole integrated thing or just the quality of the unit itself - I've read already that WHF consider the 08-09 Denon models far superior in terms of audio quality to previous years so it may be that they're getting their act together.

Either way, its not an urgent upgrade so I can take my time going over the various options.

I just wondered whether it was something I could do in stages - upgrade to the 4308 perhaps then add 2-3 monobloc power amps later. I'm kind of with SC on the Naim approach at this stage - far as I can see, most of these set ups will do well with movies but what I'm really striving for is better 2ch music performance.

Does anyone have experience of what kind of improvement (if any) I'm likely to realise by adding separate power amps to an AV receiver like the 4308? If so, what power amps would you suggest?

 

[Anonymous]

G'day Damien, I found a significant improvement adding a NAD Masters Series M25 7-channel power amplifier to my set-up. RRP is $5,000.00 on this unit.

My current equipment list is:

Integra DTR7.8 as a pre-amp (until the NAD M15HD rocks up here in Perth)

NAD M25 7 x 160-watt power amplifier

Cyrus CD 8 SE CD Player (just got it last Friday, to replace my Marantz CD6002)

Panasonic DMP-BD30 Blu-Ray Disc Player

Krix Neuphonix main loudspeakers, Krix Epicentrix centre channel loudspeaker, Krix Phoenix as surround loudspeakers, Krix Seismix 5 sub-woofer

Adding the M25 (bi-amping my Neuphonix loudspeakers) improved stereo play-back of my set-up.

What CD Player are you using?

 

[Anonymous]

Ah Perth - the most remote city in the world !

Actually yeah, could bi-amp the FL and FR with the Marantz pair also (or any other 7/8 channel amp), if you did not want the full 8 channels available, though I guess you do as you want the HD codecs...

Also, if you do pre-amp out of a receiver into something else for the fronts, make sure the same amp 'sound' is doing front, right and centre...the rears don't matter as much I believe.

 

[Anonymous]

@SC - I'll be running 5.1 -I have the RS6's bi-amped now and wouldnt want to go backwards.

@dantan - Thanks for the advice - and good to hear some local(ish) prices too - I bet you paid a pretty penny for the CD8SE - I looked at that before settling on the Cambridge 740C - which I know isnt the same calibre player but I wasnt prepared to pay the silly money they were asking for Cyrus gear in Oz at the time - 30% premium on the UK price.

I'm using the Pana DMR-BW500 which is similar to yours except with twin tuners & 500GB HD - VERY nice piece of kit. I'll have to look around for NAD over here in Brissie.

Incase you need any cables by the way - I've used www.hificables.co.uk a couple of times and saved an absolute packet - delivered usually in under a week. I just order 2 x Chord Silver Plus 1.3 HDMI (1.5m) cables for less than $300 when you do the math - best price I could get locally was $440!

Be keen to hear how you go with the NAD stuff once you get the new pre-amp. Any ideas what the M15HD is going to be worth?

 

[Anonymous]

The Monitor Audio RS6 loudspeakers are nice speakers, mate, and superb value for money.

Yes, the Cyrus did cost me an arm and a leg. The hi-fi company that I have dealt with for the last 18 months (and would have spent upwards of $15,000.00) was kind enough to loan me a Cyrus CD 8 SE (I actually sort of brought the brand to their shop. They already had been approached by Crestmore Pty Ltd, to see if they were interested in bringing the brand to 'sleepy' Perth, but because retail is slow due to the increases in interest rates, they decided against it, but when I expressed interest in the cheaper 6 SE, they decided to get in contact with Crestmore, and Crestmore was kind enough to send a 6 SE, 8 SE, and 8vs2. The 6 SE was not working, so I ended up borrowing the more expensive 8 SE, and fell in love with it, and so ordered a new one, and picked it up last Friday. This unit sure needs a lot of running-in, and it is still nowhere near its best at the moment). It ended up costing me just shy of $3,000.00 (RRP is about $3,500.00).

Thanks for your suggestion about cables. The same hi-fi company I deal with looks after me deluxe with prices. I purchased 3 The Chord Company HDMI1.3 Silver Plus cables for about $200.00 each, so you got a superb deal there! I shall check out their web-site. Otherwise, for speaker cables, I have got The Chord Company Silver Screen for my surrounds, The Chord Company Epic Super Twin bi-wire cable for my centre channel, and have got on back-order 4 pairs of The Chord Company Epic Twin cables for my main loudspeakers.

In terms of the NAD M15HD (I expect early to mid next year arrival in Australia), apparently, RRP in the U.S. is expected to be $4,499.00! D'oh!

The NAD M25 power amplifier is absolutely brilliant. I have owned it for about 7 weeks now, and am absolutely chuffed.

Dan.

 

[Anonymous]

S***, you guys really do pay through the teeth there don't you...!

I was talking to a dealer who I've used a fair bit in Singapore, and she was saying she has a lot of customers from Aus who not only buy from them and carry stuff back, but also with larger items, have it shipped over to Aus and go through 'official' channels and customs, as the resulting overall cost is STILL cheaper than the Australian RRP ! Mad.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, we do get ripped-off deluxe here in Australia.

Are you talking about a lady by the name of Violet, by any chance?

Yes, apparently, the Marantz AV8003 and MM8003 pre/power combo can BOTH be purchased in Singapore, converted into Australian Dollars, for about the same as buying ONE of the two in Australia! How ridiculous is that?! The Distributors here are certainly raking the money in.

Denon's local Distributor is worse, though.

 

[Anonymous]

Yep, good old Violet !!

You're exactly right on the 8003 pair, same for UK RRP - I can get both of them in Sing for the same price as one in the UK. Thai Marantz prices are a little more than Sing, but still way under UK etc...

 

[Anonymous]

What I haven't checked out yet though, is the official Thai and Singapore prices on Naim, for when I dump this lot....that's the bit I'm nervous of !

 

[Anonymous]

Isn't Denon the parent company of Marantz or something ? Would explain why they both have such bad pricing policies there...

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, Marantz is part of the Denon Group. However, they are sold via different distributors here in Australia (if I am not wrong). If anything, Marantz looks like good value compared to Denon.

However, Onkyo/Integra are much better value-for-money, hence I decided not to get a new Denon, and chose an Integra DTR7.8 (same amplification as the Onkyo TX-SR875, but no Reon chip-set and fewer other features, and 'only' 3 HDMI in-puts) for pre-amp duties.

I have not met Violet, but the Australian forum that I frequent has got her name mentioned several times.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey fella's - back again - just read this review of the Marantz pair and its firming up as the favourite:-

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=252665&rid=0&SQ=0#msg_252665

The best thing with this review is he's pitched it against the 4308 which was the direct upgrade I had considered for me 4306, interesting comments about the 4308's problems passing deep colour / 24fps too which I hadn't heard before.

Regards pricing, some of the locals really do like to take the p quite frankly - I had a guy talking about $26k for the Denon Pre/Power combo on Saturday then tried to palm me off with nearly $11k for the AVC-A1HD. Australia is a nightmare - low volume, greedy distributors - was the same when I was in the laminate flooring industry here. Laughable. And I agree - the local Denon guys are indeed smoking crack!

I'd like to buy something in Singapore to save the $$$'s but its just not worth the hassle if you have a problem with something worth that kind of money - the locals wont touch it and with up to $8k at stake.

Luckily I have a local dealer who looks after me big time too - the sad thing is they don't do Marantz - they really looked after me on the Monitor Audio stuff, Cambridge CD and the Pio plasma but I guess they cant do everything.

I was totally put off Cyrus as about a year back when I bought my CA CD player I was quoted $3500 for the CD6SE - I told the distributor (Crestmore) that I thought he was having a laugh and he came up with excuses about transport etc, blah, blah. Perhaps the A$ these days is helping him make it a bit more on a par which is good news as I may have another look for future purposes.

Marantz / Denon used to be the same thing but are very much separate entities as far as I understand it and handled by totally different distributors in Aust.

Can either of you compare the Marantz 'sound' to that which I'm used to with Denon? Just so I know what to expect not having had much to do with Marantz previously.

How are those Chord Silver Plus HDMI's by the way? And the other Chord cables you have? I'm currently running VanDenHul's Thunderline i/c between the CD player and amp and their 'Tea Track' speaker cable which is effectively a bi-amp version of the CS122.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi

Yeah, there's loads on it on AVS also - it's a long read, and that's not counting the 30 odd pages they lost with a server crash a month or so ago ! But there's some good info and initial feedback, not all positive either.

I really can't comment on Denon sound vs Marantz, as I just don't know Denon - the only thing I've ever had was a mini system when I was about 17 ! I've just read/heard the same old sayings, that Denon AVRs are quite 'warm' sounding, bit softer even with movies, and that Marantz often takes a more musical approach, especially over the likes of Onkyo...

I can't even make too much comment on my Marantz gear, as I feel it's not singing to its best due to the B&W speakers and the room acoustics I have. I do think though, that if there's one brand in the integrated AVR market that tries hard to straddle the AV and Music worlds, it's them (and I guess this new pre/pro is another step)...As to how successful this is, has to be down to your ears and what you want to spend. As I've said before, for me, I don't think it's quite enough, but I only learnt that from going through this phase - I now know I want a much more stripped down and 'audiophile' approach to it all....

I understand the dilemma of the local warranty etc Damien. My Marantz amp is only on a Singapore warranty, but I just figured for what it cost, sod it. Besides, I guess it's a little easier for me to get back down there should I need to. The Marantz 8003 pair would cost about $3700 Aus there from what I've been quoted....Tempting hey !

I've the Chord HDMIs also - seem great. Only issue I have with them is the stiffness, but I was lucky in that my tv has rear facing ports and that my cable was coming straight on from the rear through a hole in a partition wall. Have the Silverscreen running to the speakers also. Seems ok, though I have read another review saying it's slightly bass light. I perhaps agree. If I had better speakers, I'd go up a notch.

 

[Anonymous]

RRP on a lot of specialist hi-fi gear in Australia is downright disgraceful.

$3,500.00 for a CD 6 SE would be ridiculous! It is possible to get one for under $2,000.00 here in Perth (RRP is about $2,300.00, I think).

I have found Marantz (this is my humble opinion, though) gear to be more musical than Denon gear. This is not to gas-bag Denon. I used to own a Denon AVR2807 and Denon DVD1930, and they were both well-built and reasonably-nice sounding gear - for the money, of course. However, I have not felt that Denon's A/V Receivers sound fantastic - and especially not for 2-channel play-back.

I think brands such as Rotel and NAD should be looked at closely. Rotel is coming out with a new series ("15 series"), which includes a new HD Surround Sound Processor (RSP-1570), with prices appearing to be extremely reasonable. Rotel and NAD believe in "Music First" and I think it really shows in their products.

The Chord Company HDMI 1.3 Silver Plus cables are absolutely sensational, and so much better than garden-variety and my Kordz HDMI cables I had before these.

The Carnival Silverscreen is sensational for the money (I think about $20.00 per metre) and the Epic Super Twin (about $140.00 per metre) is absolutely stunning but it should be for the money! I personally swear by The Chord Company's cables.

 

[Anonymous]

dantan:
I used to own a Denon AVR2807 and Denon DVD1930, and they were both well-built and reasonably-nice sounding gear - for the money, of course. However, I have not felt that Denon's A/V Receivers sound fantastic - and especially not for 2-channel play-back.

I agree totally - I bought the AVR4306 on long time ago experience with one of Denon's first AV amps I owned - the AVC-3020 which was a stunning amp for movies and music. With 15 years of development under its belt, the 4306 isnt a patch on the 3020 which is very sad indeed. Denon have definitely lost their way IMO.

 

[Anonymous]

dantan:
I think brands such as Rotel and NAD should be looked at closely. Rotel is coming out with a new series ("15 series"), which includes a new HD Surround Sound Processor (RSP-1570), with prices appearing to be extremely reasonable. Rotel and NAD believe in "Music First" and I think it really shows in their products.

Luckily I dont really need an immediate upgrade so I can see what develops over the next month or so and suspect I'll have far more choice by the end of the year.

On another note, do you guys know if the Marantz can be assigned to bi-amp all three front channels? There's 8 amps so it makes sense - 3 x 2 at the front and one each at the rear, just dont know how configurable it is. I have my RS6's bi-amped currently but the 4306 doesnt allow bi-amping of the centre channel unfortunately.

 

[Anonymous]

Further update - the store that looks after me on $$$'s with all the other gear CAN get Marantz - yay. Should get the 8003 down to something sensible if I decide to go that way ; )

 

[Anonymous]

It is always good, if one can wait - or will wait. Most of us get the upgrade bug deluxe, and just need - want - something NOW!

I should assume that it is possible to bi-amp all three front loudspeakers with the Marantz, although for some reason, Marantz's own publications suggest something like being able to power a passive sub-woofer. Hopefully, your local dealer will be able to confirm that for you.

I was actually fairly keen on the Marantz combo myself, and had a hi-fi dealer express a lot of interest in trading some of my gear in for the AV8003 and MM8003. However, I was not exactly confident in the MM8003 being very lightweight. I had initially thought that it might be perhaps a Class D design (although there is no reason for a well-designed Class D not to sound as good as a Class A/B amplifier) but further discussions seem to rule this out. The unit is physically too large to be a Class D (although it is designed to match the AV8003) and probably too heavy to be Class D, plus having a huge toroidal transformer seems to be contrary to what Class D really stands for! The unit's maximum power consumption of 800-watts doesn't seem to add up, when you consider the claim of 8 x 140-watts.

The AV8003 looks to be a really good bit of kit, though, and I have been thinking about it, but I would rather wait for the matching NAD M15HD. because it would be a great combo with my NAD M25 power amp.

 

[biggus_1961]

hey dantan if nad bring out a blueray player with dd hd etc in the masters series then you could use the 5.1 anologue out into a pre amp 5.1 anologue in and not have to buy a m15hd..just a thought,....in brisbane 'northside hifi' is the only place that sells nad masters series...

 

[Anonymous]

I'm going to have to head over to Northside HiFi, never been over there. Do they have a bigger range or is what they have on their website it?

 

[Anonymous]

G'day biggus, if my information is to be believed, NAD will be releasing a new universal player (with Blu-Ray play-back) around the same time as the NAD M15HD surround sound processor. If I am able to afford it, I shall purchase them both.

However, I am super-keen on the M15HD, because I want my 'ideal' pre/power combo, and the NAD pairing (or tri-factor, if I also get the NAD Universal Player) will be awesome.

Thanks for your thoughts, and I shall keep them in mind.

Dan.

 

[Anonymous]

My Chord Silver 1.3 HDMI cables turned up and I have to say I'm surprised at the improvement - I don't even have my tv yet so cant comment on picture quality but the sound improvement is quite notable over the Panasonic HDMI which preceded the Chords - way deeper and cleaner bass and a more open sound - stellar. All delivered in under a week to Aus from HiFicables.co.uk at about 60% the best local cash price I could obtain if anyone is in need I can highly recommend them. Cant wait to see how they go with the plasma when it arrives.