Sign me up for the Musical Fidelity fanclub

[Anonymous]

method man:
igglebert:Sometimes you just can't beat a bit of colour in a hifi, some call it musicality. It's usually the nature of an amp's power limitations and subsequent clipping behaviour with the speakers that gives an amp (with speakers) it's colour and therefore it's character. As AM from MF says, the power monsters they make are good for non-clipping and the low powered class A stuff good for coloured sound.

I read something like this explaination a month or so back elsewhere. so are you saying 'colour/musicality' is actually distortion? so you are losing the very 'fidelity' of Hi-Fidelity?

...that makes sense. I'm no engineer but I struggle to see how else the colour is introduced if colour is defined as deviation from the source signal.

 

[Anonymous]

method man:

igglebert:Sometimes you just can't beat a bit of colour in a hifi, some call it musicality. It's usually the nature of an amp's power limitations and subsequent clipping behaviour with the speakers that gives an amp (with speakers) it's colour and therefore it's character. As AM from MF says, the power monsters they make are good for non-clipping and the low powered class A stuff good for coloured sound.

I read something like this explaination a month or so back elsewhere. so are you saying 'colour/musicality' is actually distortion? so you are losing the very 'fidelity' of Hi-Fidelity?

Sorry for the loose terminology of the use of the word colour.

Firstly colour is most certainly NOT distortion

It would probably be described more effectively with the word dynamics. One thing I have learned through my now many years with hifi equipment - both demoing and owning entry level to high end equipment - is the biggest thing that changes as you move up the scale towards the high end sector is how dynamics start to play a MASSIVE part in music. Both on a micro & macro scale. Yes all the other things get much better too: detail, soundstage, imaging etc. But when you listen to high end equipment(generally speaking) - the colour that was mention is actually the macro & micro scale dynamics that have been produced by accurate playback of the music

Dynamics (from the What Hifi Magazine) - the range, in decibels, between the largest and smallest audio signals reproduced by hifi.

Essentially you hear louder notes louder and more of the subtle quiet tuneful notes in the background too - The dynamic range increases.It brings you much closer to the original recording. Every time I go back to my Cyrus system - i realised how flat/colourless it sounds compared to my KW system. Everything just isnt the same again once you've heard the musicality/dynamics of recordings - its a slippery slope I tell you.

Im very sorry if this doesnt clear things up - I am a bit hazy when trying to explain things Hi-Fi. Hope this helps in some way though

 

[Anonymous]

Generally colour in hifi means non-neutrality, i.e. the more coloured the sound the less neutral it is.

Colouration
An unwanted alteration in the character of audio. Significant colouration of sound can make instruments and voices sound unrealistic. It may be caused by harmonic distortion, vibrations of component parts (for example, the panels of an inadequately braced loudspeaker enclosure) or, most commonly, through an uneven frequency response.

 

[Anonymous]

igglebert:Generally colour in hifi means non-neutrality, i.e. the more coloured the sound the less neutral it is.

Colouration
An unwanted alteration in the character of audio. Significant colouration of sound can make instruments and voices sound unrealistic. It may be caused by harmonic distortion, vibrations of component parts (for example, the panels of an inadequately braced loudspeaker enclosure) or, most commonly, through an uneven frequency response.

Yes, that's the correct definition for 'coloration' in sound. What Vinny is telling us up there is the result of a high power output of a system.

Sign me up for the club too

, (even my equipment is my first and only proper hifi I've ever had I'm very happy with it).

 

[Andrew Everard]

idc:I doubt that the parts that will be changed (as opposed to might be, but it is an upgrade, not a repair, so I will assume none of the checks will result in a part change) cost much more than £100. There is a huge profit margin for MF here.

In your highlighting you overlooked the op-amp upgrade. And of course you're right with your assessment of the economics of this - after all, all the parts will just jump out of the parts bin and into the amp, like the toys going back into the toy-box in Mary Poppins.

Sheesh - when did you last have a car serviced? Did you look at the labour charges on the invoice...?

 

[method man]

smo:
igglebert:Generally colour in hifi means non-neutrality, i.e. the more coloured the sound the less neutral it is.

Colouration
An unwanted alteration in the character of audio. Significant colouration of sound can make instruments and voices sound unrealistic. It may be caused by harmonic distortion, vibrations of component parts (for example, the panels of an inadequately braced loudspeaker enclosure) or, most commonly, through an uneven frequency response.

Yes, that's the correct definition for 'coloration' in sound. What Vinny is telling us up there is the result of a high power output of a system.

Sign me up for the club too

, (even my equipment is my first and only proper hifi I've ever had I'm very happy with it).

so what your saying is that compnaies like naim or MF that are recognised as having a particular 'house sound'. are in fact organising/making their equipment as such that they are adding a degree of distortion away from a 'true' reproduction to achive that sound. however much it might delight the ears?

 

[Anonymous]

Just to clarify - No one except for igglebert & yourself methodman is saying that - and the funny thing igglebert was the one that used the terminology 'colour' in the first place - the word musicality should have been used perhaps.

Dont get me wrong that is the correct 'definition' of colouration - this mainly comes from loudspeakers I think. Read the definition again.

An example might be when you push a loudspeaker to its limits - the large internal air pressure starts to have a small effect on the sound it creates, you might have read the term box colouration before. When my GS60s are pushed LOUD and with very deep bass notes, you start to hear the wood almost being bashed against with air - adding a small character to the sound.

That is NOT what the MF fans are talking about however - please read my post before this to achieve hopefully a better understanding of musicality.

 

[method man]

Hi vinny. To be fair also smo seems to be saying the same thing as iggle. Me, im just asking. But in any event there isnt that many of us on here. So they cant just be wrong because a few others are commenting.

I have re-read your post and I thank you for it. but as you know, your not talking about 'colour' or a house sound. really your describing what a good hi-fi should be doing.

In one of iggles posts he quotes the musical fidelity guy AM.

As AM from MF says, the power monsters they make are good for
non-clipping and the low powered class A stuff good for coloured sound.

Therefore saying that clipping and distortion are causing the colour. spend more and you get less distortion and colour?

 

[Anonymous]

I'm only trying to help and I did indeed read the posts. In the loosest terms, colour is a deviation from the original recording. A house sound will indeed be a deviation from the neutral sound, i.e. colour, and I think the more you spend on equipment from manufacturers like Naim, the more neutral and less coloured the sound gets.

It's very difficult to get a completely colour free sound and the world of hifi generally attempts to achieve this, except when the colour is preferred as with things like a MF A1 amp.

 

[Anonymous]

I can understand your point about what AM has said about the 2 different general types of amplifiers they make.

And I can say that from experience with entry level amplifiers (including MF) - when I heard clipping & distortion, when played loud - it wasnt colour I was hearing - it was bloody aweful.

Maybe colour is a change in the EQ of the original signal, which would make more sense. As this doesnt mean an increase in distortion only that the EQ graph isnt a straight line from frequency 20Hz to 20Khz.

I think we need an expert in here to explain this much better, this is way beyond my limited knowledge.......

 

[mikeinbrum]

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I am a fully signed up MF fan. I'm delighted with my A1008 amp- especially at the price I paid for it. BUT.... this pricing strategy is the very reason why many will not ever join the MF fanclub. The A1008 was listed at £3k at launch. The amp received glowing reviews from the press at this pricepoint, and many became happy owners as a result. But then, 18 months down the line, new A1008s could be had for £1k from dealers. I don't know whether this is a result of a shift in product strategy from MF meaning they wanted to shift all their midrange offerings (superchargers and the KW range also had their prices slashed) but it blew a hole in the second hand value of MF kit. Great for people like me who bought at the discount price, but a pretty poor move in alienating MFs many avid early adopters. I imagine a number of MF dealers will also have had their noses put out of joint by this too.

Still. As far as features, build quality, and sound go..... If you can pick up an A5, A1008, KW550 / 750 at their current asking prices you will have a serious audio bargain that will be with you for years!

 

[Anonymous]

Vinny7:
I can understand your point about what AM has said about the 2 different general types of amplifiers they make.

And I can say that from experience with entry level amplifiers (including MF) - when I heard clipping & distortion, when played loud - it wasnt colour I was hearing - it was bloody aweful.

Maybe colour is a change in the EQ of the original signal, which would make more sense. As this doesnt mean an increase in distortion only that the EQ graph isnt a straight line from frequency 20Hz to 20Khz.

I think we need an expert in here to explain this much better, this is way beyond my limited knowledge.......

Yeah, I'm being very loose in my terms. I've really just assumed that distortion can be defined as any unwanted impact on a signal to make it deviate from the original source. Thus, I've assumed it includes everything from amp/speaker clipping effects, acoustic distortions, amp distortion measurements, etc. Ultimately, all of these things contribute to creating a coloured sound.

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed igglebert but distortion is such that it has a massive adverse effect on the sound, and can easily be heard. Its like having increased fuss/noise in your picture from your tv. It ruins everything. Colour - im sure is to do with the EQ of sound I think.Whether that be sparkly treble (e.g Cyrus) or muscle deep bass (Bryston)

I dont know technically how these are created but im almost certain it isnt distortion. I think its something to do with the components the signal passes through, in my case the values in my MF KW kit - they affect the EQ of the signal without ruining distortion.

Lets see if an expert reads this and clears things up eh

 

[Anonymous]

mikeinbrum - what are the current asking prices of MF gear?

 

[mikeinbrum]

Sorry Vinny, just seen your question. Not sure if I can directly answer your question.....but i'll have a go and the mods can delete as appropriate.

I am not a distributor for MF....merely an end user, so I can only speak from my knowledge....a couple of examples below.... and I can't guarantee these prices are still valid (but they were very recently)

A1008 are £1100 from Lintone Audio (RRP £3k)

you can get a pair of 750k superchargers from Unilet for £2k (RRP £5k)

 

[Anonymous]

Vinny7:
Agreed igglebert but distortion is such that it has a massive adverse effect on the sound, and can easily be heard. Its like having increased fuss/noise in your picture from your tv. It ruins everything. Colour - im sure is to do with the EQ of sound I think.Whether that be sparkly treble (e.g Cyrus) or muscle deep bass (Bryston)

I dont know technically how these are created but im almost certain it isnt distortion. I think its something to do with the components the signal passes through, in my case the values in my MF KW kit - they affect the EQ of the signal without ruining distortion.

Lets see if an expert reads this and clears things up eh

Not wanting to just go on forever about this (and I'm enjoying the discussion!), valve amps sound coloured and are considered very nice by many. This colour is partly down to amplifier distortion caused by valves and is of the order that the brain likes, as opposed to the transistor amp distortion which hits frequencies that our brains dislike.

 

[idc]

Probably my hifi claim to fame is I have spoken to AM a few times when I found out about a fault with my original amp. He specifically spoke of the MF house sound and what they are always aiming to achieve. He said it sounds corny, but he wants musical fidelity. By that he wants musicality so that the sound is what the musician wants it to be, moody, lively, atmospheric etc. He also wants fidelity so the sound is as close to how the musician themself would want it to sound. He further spoke of realism and how that is more important than anything else.

In AM's letter at the bottom of the website about high power amps, you see that the aim is to produce sound as it would be if played live. That can be live concert or live as in you are in the recording studio with the producer, engineer and musician as they approve the final take that will be sent for pressing the record, making the CD etc.

Any talk of colouration with MF kit would, I suspect make AM cringe. For example, colouration could make a moody piece of music less so, which is bad to the Musical Fidelity sound.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:In AM's letter at the bottom of the website about high power amps, you see that the aim is to produce sound as it would be if played live. (SNIP)

Any talk of colouration with MF kit would, I suspect make AM cringe. For example, colouration could make a moody piece of music less so, which is bad to the Musical Fidelity sound.

Apart from his 30W class A MF A1 amp and other low powered amps he did.

 

[Anonymous]

To quote AM from his Web site:

On the other hand as you come down in power the likelihood of the amplifier clipping increases so that, in my opinion, there is a direct correlation between reducing power and decrease in musical accuracy.

Once you are below 100 watts clipping (with my previous points taken into account) is a regular feature. It follows that the dynamic reproduction is no longer neutral, accurate or low distortion. Once you've reached this area subjectivity becomes far more relevant. Each amplifier has a unique clipping/limiting characteristic when paired with a particular loudspeaker. Nobody can pretend that the reproduction is accurate, all it has to be is convincing.

This is the true background to the A1.

(SNIP)

Now to the A1. Yes it doesn't have much power and yes it's clipping regularly (but not much more than any other amplifier below 70 or 100 watts) but we have accepted its power limitations and have decided to engineer it to produce a convincing, beautiful, musical experience.

Well worth a read.

 

[Anonymous]

Thats very interesting idc & igglebert. What might make things more interesting is like my KW750 & What Hifi tested the Supercharger550. That will hardly clip at all with most speakers, but yet isnt neutral by a long stretch. So instead of distortion adding to the sound characteristics, Something else is.

Which im sure is to do with the components that make the Power Amplifier. Capacitors or whatever the technical bits are

Any Hifi Experts on today?

This will be interesting if we can get to the bottom of this

 

[method man]

He specifically spoke of the MF house sound and what they are always
aiming to achieve. He said it sounds corny, but he wants musical
fidelity. By that he wants musicality so that the sound is what the
musician wants it to be, moody, lively, atmospheric etc. He also wants
fidelity so the sound is as close to how the musician themself would
want it to sound. He further spoke of realism and how that is more
important than anything else.

But isnt that just what all hi-fi should be aiming for. neutrality with no 'colour or distortion'. So if you have achived this then you have no brand specific 'house sound'. i wouldnt have thought you can have both.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Depends whether you're interested in something able to measure well or something musically involving.

IME equipment designed with a test rig rather than with some passion tends to sound pretty unlistenable with the majority of discs.

 

[Anonymous]

Vinny7:
This will be interesting if we can get to the bottom of this

...fascinating 'innit!

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:
Depends whether you're interested in something able to measure well or something musically involving.

IME equipment designed with a test rig rather than with some passion tends to sound pretty unlistenable with the majority of discs.

Absolutely Andrew - I think thats the beauty about some of the high end kit from manufacturers - the passion leads to some beautifully musical systems. And each one is slightly different.

 

[idc]

method man: .....But isnt that just what all hi-fi should be aiming for. neutrality with no 'colour or distortion'. So if you have achived this then you have no brand specific 'house sound'. i wouldnt have thought you can have both.

Very true and now we are entering hifi ad speak, 'our kit is the best'. The MF argument is that they aim for realism more so than other brands and that is their house sound. How you go about that is very open to opinion as I am sure most other manufacturers would say are doing the same. Google 'do all amplifiers sound the same' and you find a huge debate about whether or not that is the case. I personally do not think that is true, unless you equalize then so that they do sound the same, which seems pointless.