Should I try new cables?

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the invitation, spot. You're a bit far away, if truth be told.

I mentioned the psychology angle as I know it's been used to dismiss/explain (delete as appropriate) reported positive results from cabling before, I apologise if it's not one you've used.

Funnily (and arrogantly enough), I do think I'm incredibly fair-minded, and have certainly done back-to-backs that have yielded no benefit I can discern. But I've also had experiences where the differences were so clear as to be unmistakeable. I don't claim to understand the hows and whys, but then we still don't properly understand how lightning occurs, so I'm not going to get too hung up on that.

I trust my eyes and ears implicitly, and would always encourage others to do the same. I suppose that's what I find just a wee bit frustrating in some responses (not yours, I hasten to add) that it's not even worth trying some loaners and seeing how you get on. There are enough closed minds in the world without us encouraging more.

 

[Anonymous]

The other problem with obsessing about the one part of your hi-fi that has no bearing on the sound, is that you ignore all the bits that really do. I know in the 80's there was a major thing driven by Linn etc about 'The Source' (note at that time they also sold the isobariks so their engineering dept was more realistic than the marketing dept), but today with digital once you get an optical signal into something like a Behringer Ultramatch the source is pretty much settled.

That leads on to the four remaining big effects on your sound:

1. The recording and mastering process (abysmal these days with clipping and compression)

2. Your room acoustics and comfort

3. The speakers - the biggest hi-fi effect on the sound

4. The amp - the 2nd biggest effect on the sound.

To make it more difficult/interesting 3 and 4 are connected (sic) in a symbiosis, but there is a huge variety of both, and both are governed by the laws of physics - unlike hype about the connector between them..

So rather than wasting time and money on placebos you should consider decent speakers (Spendor, Proac, Usher, Hyperion, Tannoy, old Quads etc) and getting the most out of them with a decent amp, which generally means not a class B transistor due to the lack of designers with a clue.

 

[matthewpiano]

Globs, I find your philosophy of hi-fi very interesting and I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you say. In particular I think the synergy between amp and speakers is crucial and always have done.

In terms of amplification you are tempting me to eventually fulfil a long-term ambition of mine to explore what valves could do for my listening, although I do feel that passive pre-amp design makes a big positive difference to transistor amplification hence the high regard in which I hold my Creek. This little amp never becomes remotely shrieky or ragged irrespective of what I play through it.

I notice you suggest some speaker brands to Jax. Does this mean you are not a Dynaudio fan?

 

[Anonymous]

The interesting point from a perspective of logic is that negative experiences don't prove that cables can't make a difference. That there is no perceptible difference between two cables doesn't mean that there is no perceptible difference between any cables.

I've said it before and will do so again: the aspect of hifi fora that I dislike, and that in my experience doesn't happen in ones with different core interests, is the desire to prove oneself right, rather than tolerating others' views. Repeated references to snake oil and placebo don't help any more than ones to cotton buds would, but I don't see anything changing. Which is a pity.

 

[Anonymous]

MatthewPiano: - I haven't heard any Dynaudio so I can't say. I've never heard a good B&W if that helps, but maybe I've just been unlucky

12th: - I think you are going for the Null Hypothesis there.

Speaker cables have the following important properties:

1. Resistance. This is occasionally better with silver _but not always_, copper is in general the best conductor, and it's price ensures is it _always_ the best conductor (as you can make thicker cables than with silver).

2. Capacitance, inductance, Skin effect & TL impedance, Negligable.

3. RFI pickup, cured with a £2 ferrite core from Rapid.

Possibly the best speaker cable in the entire world is a 12AWG OFC cable with a ferrite core clamped over it at the power amp end. End of story. Seriously.

Hi-Fi needs to get real again and re-discover the geniune progress it had up to the late 1980s, cable hype is highly damaging to the industry IMO, a triumph of ignorance over physics.

 

[matthewpiano]

Yeah, got to agree about B&W. I've not found them to be good for long term listening sessions. I recently heard a pair of CM1s driven by Rotel electronics and I it was a dreadful racket! Absolutely no bass control at all. I briefly had a pair of 686s here and suffered a very similar problem. I had thought at the time that the Arcam A18 I had just couldn't control them and to a certain extent I think that was true, but hearing B&Ws since then has only confirmed that they aren't for me.

I only asked about Dynaudio as that is what Jax has now. I've not heard his higher range Dyns so I can't comment on those but I have heard the 2/6s and I wasn't overly taken with them.

I'm going to get some 12AWG OFC cables and ferrite core to give that a spin

 

[Andrew Everard]

You may just be straying near to the edge of House Rules there, MMAudio.

Two posts, both extolling the virtues of the same brand, and you still haven't complied with our previous request about the House Rule regarding traders' signatures.

Let's call that Strike Two, shall we?

 

[Anonymous]

Whether you are a believer in cables making a big difference or not (naturally we KNOW they ALL make a difference, the best ones make an IMPROVEMENT), we would STRONGLY suggest trying Tellurium Q.

We have only been stocking it for 6 months but their entire range made such a strong impression that we have ceased ordering from Chord now (after over 20 years bestowing the virtues of Chord over QED and the like!)

EVERY customer we have loaned TQ out to has remarked how artificial other cables suddenly sound in comparison. I personally changed from Chord Epic Twin to TQ Black and cannot even consider going back. I've even begun using TQ Black in my personal Home Cinema system as well as the hifi (and the home cinema benefits just as much!)

Considering that most independent Hifi dealers care about repeat business, I'm sure you'll find an TQ stockist more than willing to offer a loan set!

 

[Anonymous]

Hi-Fi needs to get real again and re-discover the geniune progress it had up to the late 1980s, cable hype is highly damaging to the industry IMO, a triumph of ignorance over physics.

Ignorance in the face of an argument perhaps. Untill someone gets a bunch of different cables graphs out the waves they produce through the same recording/frequencies and proves that they are all equal, then people can and will believe otherwise.

Some people need proof, yet no one has come forward with any?

 

[jaxwired]

Great debate! Thanks to everyone that posted.

As usual, there's little agreement about cables.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I'm going to get some 12AWG OFC cables and ferrite core to give that a spin

Hi Matthew

Please also try standard 500 strand OFC speaker cables as these are smooth with zest and grip. As for interconnects basic ones (red/white ends) is what i'll recommend. First class results for very little £.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[CnoEvil]

Whether you are a believer in cables making a big difference or not (naturally we KNOW they ALL make a difference, the best ones make an IMPROVEMENT), we would STRONGLY suggest trying Tellurium Q.

We have only been stocking it for 6 months but their entire range made such a strong impression that we have ceased ordering from Chord now (after over 20 years bestowing the virtues of Chord over QED and the like!)

EVERY customer we have loaned TQ out to has remarked how artificial other cables suddenly sound in comparison. I personally changed from Chord Epic Twin to TQ Black and cannot even consider going back. I've even begun using TQ Black in my personal Home Cinema system as well as the hifi (and the home cinema benefits just as much!)

Considering that most independent Hifi dealers care about repeat business, I'm sure you'll find an TQ stockist more than willing to offer a loan set!

Yup......I've been having my small "one man campaign" to get this make on peoples' radar for a while now.

 

[matthewpiano]

I'm going to get some 12AWG OFC cables and ferrite core to give that a spin

Hi Matthew

Please also try standard 500 strand OFC speaker cables as these are smooth with zest and grip. As for interconnects basic ones (red/white ends) is what i'll recommend. First class results for very little £.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hi Rick. Thanks for the tips. I'm definitely going to try your suggestions as if they do the job for me it will rid me of the game of trying expensive cables once and for all. Will let you know how I get on.

Regards, Matthew.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I'm going to get some 12AWG OFC cables and ferrite core to give that a spin

Hi Matthew

Please also try standard 500 strand OFC speaker cables as these are smooth with zest and grip. As for interconnects basic ones (red/white ends) is what i'll recommend. First class results for very little £.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hi Rick. Thanks for the tips. I'm definitely going to try your suggestions as if they do the job for me it will rid me of the game of trying expensive cables once and for all. Will let you know how I get on.

Regards, Matthew.

Hi Matthew

Your welcome.

Keep it simple

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[the record spot]

Not everywhere defines the American guage, so it's probably a good idea to recognise the UK equivalent. On the other hand, sites like the one from Digitalis Direct whose Ebay shop provided mine, make it easy as they define both.

I think my 322 strand is 14 AWG and was about as thick as my amp could accept! The results have been impressive. I imagine you might find the same. Expect to pay less than a tenner.

 

[Anonymous]

Basically any decent quality copper (usually OFC) in a heavy gauge will sound exactly the same, the ferrite may make a difference however. Google 'Snap-on ferrite core Rapid' to find them, any vendor will do.

The reason the ferrite is important is that in most amps the speaker output is connected back to the input via a resistor and small capacitor. The capacitor is there to give a little phase advantage to the feedback. This is know as Global Negative Feedback or GNFB.

GNFB is used to turn non-linear noisy high gain amps with massive distortion into something that measures well, and is used extensively today, especially on class B transistor amps. It isn't very musical, but it is cheap and easy.

The GNFB causes any RF signal at the speaker outlets to run around back through the amplifier (especially through that little capacitor) which can on occasion mess up/mix into the audio signal going the same way.

So to eliminate this RFI you can use a ferrite core (costing about £2-£5) or spend thousands on some cable that may or may not adequately suppress this. The reason you need to ferrite next to the amp is that the cable is the antenna, so you stop the RFI at the amp end, the speaker won't care.

This is the reason that you can hear your mobile phone signalling if you leave it on top of a speaker, the signal nips back into the amp and gets demodulated and amplified so you can hear it from the speakers.

 

[Craig M.]

jax, go out and demo some actives. if you can live with the looks, i believe you can find something from the proaudio world that betters what you have now - for less money, too. you can forget all about cables and their 'improvements' then.

if you do decide to try cables, see if you can devise a way of blind testing them. blind testing can be a great money saver!

 

[Anonymous]

Nice signature Craig M - and all to true I fear.

The record companies have led the fall in sound quality but the Hi-Fi shops intent on peddling expensive rubbish (even in this very thread) rather than selling decent gear must also bear responsibility.

The combination is turning a lot of people off Hi-Fi altogether, meanwhile the real Hi-Fi goes DIY now - almost full circle

 

[Anonymous]

a triumph of ignorance over physics

I think there is a considerable danger in assuming one knows it all. As I say, we still don't understand why the negative and positive charges, which should attract one another, separate within a cloud to cause lightning, yet lightning happens. I'll stick with trusting my ears, thanks.

I'm tempted to paraphrase with 'a triumph of arrogance over experience', but this would be rude. A shame the courtesy isn't reciprocal but as I say, this sort of thing seems endemic in hifi fora. Who was it who asked why people leave (sometimes to return)? Here's your answer.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi 12th,

It's not the unknown danger of assuming we know all there is to know that bugs hi-fi, it's the known danger of ignoring known vices in sources, amps and speakers with know cures and remedies.

It's a bit like having an old Lada and being pleased that you'd spent thousands of pounds on some special seat covers in an effort to make it perform better. Sure you may feel better, but physics will ignore them.

 

[Andrew Everard]

jax, go out and demo some actives. if you can live with the looks, i believe you can find something from the proaudio world that betters what you have now - for less money, too. you can forget all about cables and their 'improvements' then.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

jax, go out and demo some actives. if you can live with the looks, i believe you can find something from the proaudio world that betters what you have now - for less money, too. you can forget all about cables and their 'improvements' then.

if you do decide to try cables, see if you can devise a way of blind testing them. blind testing can be a great money saver!

+1

 

[tiggs]

It may be worth seeing if you can try the AudioQuest CV-4 speaker cable (now the GO-4 which is the same, just different cosmetics), as in the UK you can get a 4.5 metre (14 foot 9) pair for £250.00, its also a solid core cable which I believe is a star quad configuration. I don't know what the gauge of it is and even if I did I wouldn't understand it as I don't use the AWG system as I prefer metric.

 

[MajorFubar]

I fail to see why the subject of cables prompts such polarised high-octane opinions.
If cable X sounds better to you than cable Y, then use cable X. It matters not one jot whether the difference is real, placebic, or indeed if every measurment and electrical test shows that actually Cable Y is the superior conductor. Of course it's subjective and personal, as is just about everything else in HiFi.

It's the old case of if it sounds better to you, then it is.
To the original poster: go borrow some cables from a decent dealer who will allow you to try them at home. If in your opinion they haven't improved the sound of your HiFi, hand them back.

Simple as that really!

 

[Anonymous]

I fail to see why the subject of cables prompts such polarised high-octane opinions. If cable X sounds better to you than cable Y, then use cable X. It matters not one jot whether the difference is real, placebic, or indeed if every measurment and electrical test shows that actually Cable Y is the superior conductor. Of course it's subjective and personal, as is just about everything else in HiFi. It's the old case of if it sounds better to you, then it is. To the original poster: go borrow some cables from a decent dealer who will allow you to try them at home. If in your opinion they haven't improved the sound of your HiFi, hand them back. Simple as that really!

+1

Science dictates that all analogue (as opposed to digital or mains) cables will make a difference, since they have an impedence property and any impedence will make a difference to an analogue signal. The only question is (a) does it make a big enough difference for you to hear and (b) if you can hear the difference, does the sound quality subjectively improve or degrade.

So go try some cables, trust your ears and make sure you can justify the outlay given the cost, improvement you can hear and where else the same money could be spent (e.g. upgrading your speakers).