Second hand gear is it all that ?

[JoelSim]

Second hand/ex demo can provide a decent saving. My system cost as follows:

Unico CDE ex demo £1,375 (RRP £2,295)

Maestro Settanta 2nd hand £750 (RRP £2,500)

Arcam DV79 2nd hand £265 (RRP £1,000)

Kudos C2 ex demo £1,400 (RRP £1,950)

ProAc Tablette Ref 8 Sigs new £595 (RRP £925)

Nordost Heimdall grey import £250 (RRP £450)

Clearer Audio Silverlines £150 each (RRP £260 each with added plugs)

Crystal Cable Piccolo £free (RRP >£200)

MacBook Air new from John Lewis £899 (RRP £1,300)

As you can see there are decent savings to be had if you look around. I didn't use a dealer to demo though, if I had I would have bought from them.

 

[Thaiman]

JoelSim:
Maestro Settanta 2nd hand £750 (RRP £2,500)

How did you manage that!!!! Bargain alert

 

[JoelSim]

Thaiman:JoelSim:

Maestro Settanta 2nd hand £750 (RRP £2,500)

How did you manage that!!!! Bargain alert

I'm just a cheapskate who enjoys bargaining for everything.

 

[Anonymous]

Thaiman:dim_span:

Thaiman:2nd hand hifi sometime can be for those who want to re-live the dream. I remember when I use to own a pair of kef coda7 and lush over whathifi's review of Kef reference twothree. Few years gone by and few (luckily) good jobs later I bought the pair for half price 2nd hand. Do they sound as good as I hope they would? No! but I was living my dream at the time. Having said that some golden hifi products are timeless, my Marantz CD7 for example, It was first come on the market in 2000 so quite a few years old design now and if I can find a better CD player this side of £6K, I would purchase it but I can't! (for my taste anyway) in fact I stop looking now! Even the new pearl signature wasn't quite do it for me, it's very good but not better.

always wanted a Marantz CD-7 cdp .... have never seen one for sale ... you are very lucky to own one, as only a few were made (think 750 were made) ... am still searching daily

Have you try Sugden Masterclass mk1? It has a similar sound (one single rather than two double) I used it for a while before found CD7. The other CDP I rated so very highly is Audionet ART V2, inky black background with bass to die for.

thanks Thaiman ... will add those on my list for further research as wish to get a good cdp next year

have recently been looking at what older cdp's have the same chip as the marantz CD-7 (think it is the dutch double crown one with the number TDA 1541aS2)

think there were a few but not 100% certain (Marantz CD-7, Meridian 206B, marantz CD-94, Micromega Duo Pro)

have also been told that the Marantz Cd-12, Sont CDP-X77ES, Philips CD-610/615, Rotel 855 and 955 and the old Philips CD-300 are very good cd players, but will research properly before buying

 

[a91gti]

@d_s, there are a lot of cdp's using the Philips tda1541 in all variants. Its particularly sweet when in non-oversampling mode. For links to more info on this dac and a list of cdp's that use it search for Lampizator ( can't post links at the minute, I'm using opera mini).

 

[Anonymous]

thanks Andrew ... will check

 

[Gerrardasnails]

nick46:
I got to thinking that a lot posts i read are people who want a system for x amount of £ and want to know the system to get, a lot of replies are buy second hand you get a far better system for the money. I wonder sometimes if people just look back with rose tinted glasses and think all things of yesteryear were better, i know some people are going to say you dont know what your on about you can get a ten year old cdp player originaly £1000 for £200 now, my point is have things not improved over the years such as dacs, etc, etc in the cdp so now a £600 cdp should sound as good as ten year old £1000 cdp(plus the fact that its new, with no wear and tare).

Iam looking to buy a new system in the near future and have been looking at the marantz 6003 combi as a good system, but keep reading threads about second hand gear being better. anyway just thought i bring it up and see other peoples thoughts.

Sorry for any spelling mistakes i know this offends some people.

I will have a better idea after next weekend as I'm setting up a second hand system (£100 speakers, £80 amp and £80 Beresford) and will have a good play. I do think that the Punto/Porsche analogy is a bit false though. Most of the time, we are talking about say an amp which cost £600 in 1990 let's say a Sierra 2.0 Ghia(!) sounding better now at it's second hand price of £250 than today's equivalent, CA 640A (Ford Focus).

And JD, you got two amazing bargains with your knobs - which is unusual to get that good a deal, especially Primare.

 

[Thaiman]

andrewknight:@d_s, there are a lot of cdp's using the Philips tda1541 in all variants. Its particularly sweet when in non-oversampling mode. For links to more info on this dac and a list of cdp's that use it search for Lampizator ( can't post links at the minute, I'm using opera mini).

It's not that simple though, just because they are using the same dac chipset doesn't mean they will sound the same. Power supplies, acoustic absorbtion, Transports, op amps, clocks etc...they are all play their part in every cd players. I wish they are all the same, as that i would save me a thounsand or two!

 

[Anonymous]

Thaiman:

andrewknight:@d_s, there are a lot of cdp's using the Philips tda1541 in all variants. Its particularly sweet when in non-oversampling mode. For links to more info on this dac and a list of cdp's that use it search for Lampizator ( can't post links at the minute, I'm using opera mini).

It's not that simple though, just because they are using the same dac chipset doesn't mean they will sound the same. Power supplies, acoustic absorbtion, Transports, op amps, clocks etc...they are all play their part in every cd players. I wish they are all the same, as that i would save me a thounsand or two!

yup ... however, narrowing the search down to the cd players that have that chip makes it easier when researching ... The Marantz CD-7 is very special and highly sought after ... apparantly, a good used one can fetch in excess of £4500 ... I have been searching for a while and never seen one advertised ... I am led to believe that very few cd players (even new) have a similar soundstage as the CD-7

on the chip it uses, it has a picture of 2 crowns and originates from Holland ... apparantley this is far better than the normal one ...

I stand to be corrected, as I have only recently read about this

 

[a91gti]

Too true Thaiman, a lot of 1541's were stifled by cruddy surroundings. A bit of cherry picking is required, this is why the Marantz decks are so good, a fairly good circuit that can be improved upon with a few simple tweaks.
@d_s, the twin crowns indicate that the dac is of "series 2", seems to be a bit of a grey area what differentiates the two "series" but sonically there's nothing in it. The key is most definately in the quality of circuit and components surrounding it.

 

[idc]

Funnily enough in replying to Gerradasnails re the Denon PMA250SE, which I am sure I paid £120ish new when I got it, there is one on ebay for £102 buy it now including delivery. There is a similar lack of depreciation for Musical Fidelity X-CAN amps, particularly the V2.

I bought Chebbys DAC, my only second hand purchase. I did so because I was confident that it would be in new condition as described.

Otherwise, is it not the case that the real bargains are to be had second hand from the mid to high range products?

 

[Gerrardasnails]

idc:
Funnily enough in replying to Gerradasnails re the Denon PMA250SE, which I am sure I paid £120ish new when I got it, there is one on ebay for £102 buy it now including delivery. There is a similar lack of depreciation for Musical Fidelity X-CAN amps, particularly the V2.

I bought Chebbys DAC, my only second hand purchase. I did so because I was confident that it would be in new condition as described.

Otherwise, is it not the case that the real bargains are to be had second hand from the mid to high range products?

I got mine which is immaculate for £65 and £15 delivery!

 

[matthewpiano]

I think the safety of a decent warranty remains a strong benefit of buying new gear, particularly where a manufacturer goes beyond the expected.

At the high end Bryston are an excellent example with their 20 year cover, but it has got to be said that Arcam's 5 year warranty is superb, especially with the company being a UK manufacturer and the associated ease of getting repairs completed. I know Roksan have also followed suit recently, and I'm sure we'll see other quality brands pushing in the same direction.

 

[Anonymous]

matthewpiano:I think the safety of a decent warranty remains a strong benefit of buying new gear, particularly where a manufacturer goes beyond the expected.At the high end Bryston are an excellent example with their 20 year cover, but it has got to be said that Arcam's 5 year warranty is superb, especially with the company being a UK manufacturer and the associated ease of getting repairs completed. I know Roksan have also followed suit recently, and I'm sure we'll see other quality brands pushing in the same direction.

Or Densen - the only ones I know with a lifetime warranty - you pay the postage to them, they pay the return postage.

 

[Thaiman]

Rob_manchester:
matthewpiano:I think the safety of a decent warranty remains a strong benefit of buying new gear, particularly where a manufacturer goes beyond the expected.At the high end Bryston are an excellent example with their 20 year cover, but it has got to be said that Arcam's 5 year warranty is superb, especially with the company being a UK manufacturer and the associated ease of getting repairs completed. I know Roksan have also followed suit recently, and I'm sure we'll see other quality brands pushing in the same direction.

Or Densen - the only ones I know with a lifetime warranty - you pay the postage to them, they pay the return postage.

Not transferable, may I add?

 

[Anonymous]

Thaiman:Rob_manchester:
matthewpiano:I think the safety of a decent warranty remains a strong benefit of buying new gear, particularly where a manufacturer goes beyond the expected.At the high end Bryston are an excellent example with their 20 year cover, but it has got to be said that Arcam's 5 year warranty is superb, especially with the company being a UK manufacturer and the associated ease of getting repairs completed. I know Roksan have also followed suit recently, and I'm sure we'll see other quality brands pushing in the same direction.

Or Densen - the only ones I know with a lifetime warranty - you pay the postage to them, they pay the return postage.

Not transferable, may I add?

That's right, not officially transferable (despite many eBayers referencing it).

Having said that, Thomas Sillesen said last year that they'd never charged a second-hand owner for an amp repair either. I know we're not allowed to link other forums here but I'm sure you could google if you wanted to find the (rather negative) original thread:

"You are right in that we have not charged for service. Also we have not charged for service for secondhand owners. I have for several years planned to start charging, but awaits that we get a webshop with fixed prices for second hand repair. So that second hand owners know the cost, and can pay before shipment back to us."

 

[Anonymous]

found this link on another forum ... old technology vs new ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/8351921.stm

 

[matthewpiano]

Its an interesting link dim_span but it doesn't really prove anything about older seperates vs. new seperates. Rather it simply suggests, in a fairly prosaic way, that a CD player through a decent amp and speakers beats a docked MP3 player.

One of the central tenets of being able to build a really satisfying system is proper, and extensive, auditioning and this is largely where buying second hand becomes a lottery. With hindsight (a wonderful thing!!) I think the Ebay buying etc. rather under-estimates the importance of a proper hi-fi retailer and the opportunities for demonstration and discussion they can offer and even with lots of reading around it makes the whole thing an expensive lottery.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

matthewpiano:Its an interesting link dim_span but it doesn't really prove anything about older seperates vs. new seperates. Rather it simply suggests, in a fairly prosaic way, that a CD player through a decent amp and speakers beats a docked MP3 player.

One of the central tenets of being able to build a really satisfying system is proper, and extensive, auditioning and this is largely where buying second hand becomes a lottery. With hindsight (a wonderful thing!!) I think the Ebay buying etc. rather under-estimates the importance of a proper hi-fi retailer and the opportunities for demonstration and discussion they can offer and even with lots of reading around it makes the whole thing an expensivottery.

I think, if you know what amp you want and you can get good deals buying second hand but guessing that they will sound good is different. Same for speakers etc, too. Matthew, I note the changes to your kit; I hope you find clarity in HiFi soon.

 

[chebby]

dim_span:
found this link on another forum ... old technology vs new ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/8351921.stm

Proves absolutely nothing other than an old system of seperates (that would cost about £700 in modern equivalents) sounds better than a £150 iPod dock.

If the iPod had been connected with a £26 GQ-24 lead to the NAD/Mordaunt short system, then the comparison (between an old CD player and an iPod as a source) would have been fairer and the outcome a lot closer.

Even a comparison with a good pair of active PC/iPod speakers - like the £250 Audioengine A5 - might have run the old seperates system close.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

chebby:dim_span:
found this link on another forum ... old technology vs new ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/8351921.stm

Proves absolutely nothing other than an old system of seperates (that would cost about £700 in modern equivalents) sounds better than a £150 iPod dock.

If the iPod had been connected with a £26 GQ-24 lead to the NAD/Mordaunt short system, then the comparison (between an old CD player and an iPod as a source) would have been fairer and the outcome a lot closer.

Even a comparison with a good pair of active PC/iPod speakers - like the £250 Audioengine A5 - might have run the old seperates system close.

I agree. I also think that HiFi/AV reviews in newspapers and non HiFi/AV websites are shocking normally.

 

[Anonymous]

I can see several reasons not to buy second hand.

At least where I live (Norway), second hand hi-fi is ridiculously expensive. For relatively new gear that means that you'll have to pay say 3/4 of the price of new products (sometimes even more), without getting any of the consumer protection (which equals a 5 years' limited warranty) that goes with buying new stuff. In my opinion guarantees are much more than 3/4 of the value.

For older gear, prices are most often related to the original prize -- while prices on electronics have dropped dramatically the last decades.

We also see that products that's got a more or less deserved reputation for sound quality, but are known to fail technically, are sold for nearly as much as new equipment that's most probably just as good sounding and much more reliable.

Even if we assume that old equipment might offer better sound quality than new equipment, it's old after all. There's a rule of thumb that you can't expect electrical equipment to last more than 10 years. Of course, with proper care quality equipment might last much longer than that -- but as a buyer, you can't possibly know if the box you buy are one of the long lasters, or whether it's been treated properly.

Buying second hand hi-fi, you'll need more knowledge than the average costumer have.

 

[Anonymous]

Fahnsen:
I can see several reasons not to buy second hand.

At least where I live (Norway), second hand hi-fi is ridiculously expensive. For relatively new gear that means that you'll have to pay say 3/4 of the price of new products (sometimes even more),

Right who is up for filling a van full of 2nd hand gear and driving to Norway...